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Naruto Upgrades Part 2: 5-B Base Naruto and Sasuke

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TheFinalOrder

TheFinalOrder

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Ok, so this thread is a continuation from here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2286211

Summaery of my arguments for why Base Naruto should be 5-B in Base:

SPSM: There is a Misconception that SPSM is Massively Stronger than Base Naruto, when that is not the case as the proof shows us. SPSM Naruto is simply a Supernatural State of Mind that Hagoromko gifted Naruto in addition to SPC. The Databook description of the technique states the following:

"From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature

The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi."

SPSM has nothing to do with SPC, they are two separate powers. The only thing SPSM is stated to give Naruto is:

  • Flight
  • Increased Reaction Speed
When arguing about this with Kepekley23, he attempts to use the fact that this feat is under the SPSM page in the databook and the caption along with it states, "Kicking the "Truth-Seeking Ball"! Exceeding the Kurama Mode, a feat accomplished by a huge chakra." to say that SPSM was tied to the SPC given to Naruto by Hagoromo in that Naruto needed it to Channel his SPC. I would have agreed with Kep, had this not been proven false. Sasuke Uchiha in the manga, was gifted the Rinnegan and SPC, the same as Naruto with SPSM and SPC. Yet we see that Sasuke is capable of using SPC, despite the fact he doesn't have SPSM:

0674-011
This proves to us that Naruto like Sasuke, would be capable of using SPC outside of SPSM. Coupled with the fact the Description does not state Naruto can only use SPC within SPSM, we cannot assume the Chakra is exclusive to the form. It's also misleading to say that SPSM is the only form capable of using SPC when the databook doesn't cover the final fight. Only up to the end of the Kaguya fight, to which, yes, Naruto was in SPSM for the entire battle with Madara-Kaguya. It doesn't cover Base Naruto, post Kaguya fight. Naruto's own feats back up this not being the case.


Base Naruto's Feats:

Ever since the end of the Kaguya fight, Base Naruto only really has a hand full of feats (I'm going to leave out "The Last" as Toneri is likely to be 10x stronger than SPSM Naruto due to Naruto using SM in the fight). This is will use Naruto vs Sasuke and Naruto/Sasuke vs Momoshiki.

Some would argue this makes no sense when Momoshiki could overpower SPSM Naruto with his Golem physically, but there is a slight misconception here:

  • Momoshiki's Golem is Ninjutsu.
  • Ninjutsu is always > The characters physical abilities.
Momoshiki overpowered SPSM Naruto with his Golem, which is Ninjutsu and Naruto's Ninjutsu > Momoshiki's Durability.

NOTE: Other arguments were made and addressed in the first thread as well. but be warned that it's a long thread, thus the creation of this one.

NOTE 2: After a Recent interview with WSJ Editorial Staff, it was stated that Kodachi, Boruto's Author is essentially the Showrunner of the Anime.

  • In Charge of the Screenplay
  • Oversee's and Supervises the Writers Room
  • Writers have to submit their screenplays to him for approval
I discussed this with Kepekley23, and he agreed that based on Kodachi's involvement and status with the anime, the Characterization and Portrayal of Canon characters can be considered "Supporting Canon". Being this is the case, i'm gonna post the Naruto and Sasuke Momoshiki fight for consideration as supporting evidence to back my claims made here:

Full Fight 60 FPS Naruto and Sasuke VS Momoshiki Otsutsuki ~ Boruto ep 65
Full Fight 60 FPS Naruto and Sasuke VS Momoshiki Otsutsuki ~ Boruto ep 65
 
FIRST! HELL YEAH!

Anyways since I'm here I think I can fine a way for Base Naruto but I need to know the following:

Kaguya's AP lvl

Momoshiki's AP lvl
 
Damn I was gonna make it lol


Also guys even if this doesn't work out Kep still suggested that Sasuke's sword is 5B consistently

The sword scales to Kinshiki which makes Kinshiki 5B. Kinshiki scales to Sasuke's durability. This isn't circular reasoning if anyone didn't know
 
Kaguya AP is 400zt straight while her TSB AP is 5A

Momoshiki scales above 400zt by an unknown amount and his lava golem is stronger than his base
 
I'll come back to this, but one thing that should be noted right away is that the claim that SPSM doesn't have chakra like you said isn't backed up in direct words by anything in the databook, but the same databook calls SPSM a state with "huge chakra", so it definitely still has it.
 
I mean. SOSPm is a Mode with chakra. It's a Mode only used when Naruto is using SPC. It's not that the mode has chakra but it's that Naruto naturally has that much chakra when he activates that mode anyway. State=Mode. So yeah it still has it in the sense that Naruto is combining SOSP mode and SPC which means he will have huge chakra in that mode
 
AstralKing7 said:
Kaguya AP is 400zt straight while her TSB AP is 5A

Momoshiki scales above 400zt by an unknown amount and his lava golem is stronger than his base
Click to expand...
Ok then what is SO6P Naruto (Hokage) AP lvl?
 
Sasuke has 2 5-B feats in the Manga throughout the Kaguya/Madara fights, Tanking being knocked back by Madara's Limbo's
This is a false assumption, Sasuke was already in motion to strike as we can see. We know Sasuke is in mid-motion with his Chidori Blade above his head as he's bringing it down, and that in the actual panel of the contact, Sasuke's sword is now actually down.

It's perfect and reasonable implication that the point of contact was with his Chidori Blade. Your stance relies on the entire assumption that we ignore these positionings and assume that Sasuke somehow was hit.

If we were to invoke Occam's Razor, your position would be denied due to the assumptions you must take being higher than the stance of Sasuke making contact through the Blade.

Also, at times like these where we have a form of confusion for feats, the anime is acceptable to use for clarity in how the event played out. anime portrays the scene exactly how the manga panel's positioning and paneling plays out with Sasuke making contact with his Chidori Blade, not his person taking a hit.

There's no way this is a feat of Sasuke being hit, nothing implies that.

Tanking being tossed back by Kaguya which made both himself and SPSM Naruto Exclaim
I'll reiterate Kep's words since he and I basically agree on this:

Yet another brief, one-panel scan that, if taken literally, leads to disastrous scaling. So, we're seeing Sasuke take a direct hit from Kaguya. He is not sent flying any farther than Naruto is, is not roughed up any further by the hit too. He tanked that hit just as well as SPSM Naruto did.

Yet this exact same Sasuke needed his Susano'o in order to match SPSM Naruto evenly, as shown several times in VOTE. The track record is consistent with Base Naruto = Rinnegan Sasuke without Susano'o physically. Yet we are supposed to believe that Rinnegan Sasuke can take hits from Kaguya just as well as SPSM Naruto can.

Sort out that scaling for me now in a manner that won't require headcanons and another batch of 1,000 threads in the matter that wouldn't be necessary if we analyzed each battle in depth instead of picking one single scan and latching into it permanently.

Base Naruto 5-B with Ninjutsu: Base Naruto is 5-B with Ninjutsu for supplying the Chakra to Boruto's Rasenga that Killed Momoshiki when Momoshiki could tank hits from Sasuke and Naruto, here and here.
What should be noted here is this is not casual or average for Base Naruto, it would be misleading. He has to put out effort for this and it's a huge Rasengan several orders of magnitude larger than his usual Rasengans.

So in conclusion, Base Naruto and Base Sasuke are not physically 5-B, only SPSM Naruto is 5-B.
 
AstralKing7 said:
Should be around 360zt but this is when he is using SOSP mode
Click to expand...
ONE MORE THING! what's the age of Current Hokage Naruto? (his age right now in Boruto series)
 
ALRIGHTY I THINK I GOT IT!

Basically this:

We find the # of year from age of Naruto from The Last and current Hokage so here we do 33 or 32 - 19 = 14 or 13. Then we use SOSP Naruto (Hokage) AP lvl and divide it from the answer we got of Narutos age difference so 360zt / 14 or 13 = 25.7142857zt or 27.6923077zt and to find Base Naruto (Last) we divide the previous answer by 2 years since Naruto was 17 and he was 19 in the movie so here 25.7142857zt or 27.6923077zt / 2 = 12.8571429 or 13.8461538

So!

Base Naruto (Last) = 12.8/13zt (rounded up) or 13.8/14zt (rounded up)

Base Hokage Naruto = 25.7/26zt (rounded up) or 27.6/28zt (rounded up)
 
Oh come on! that's literally good math right there AND we can know that his base form is on the low of 5B. How come Kep-sama 360zt is good to go but my math and getting a lower number can't be???
 
Cause it's literally scaling bruh what are you talking about???? You made a calc that doesn't make sense no offense. A calc like that has way less weight compared to scaling that has been consistently portrayed
 
If u honestly think that Base Naruto could scale to his SOSP then that's a hell no right there. All Kep-sama did was just half the powers of Hagoromo and Haruma to get results for Naruto/Sasuke so I did cool math to get what a estimate would be for Base Naruto/Base Hokage Naruto
 
IMade, do not use the anime or any outside media— in general, for absolutely anything, because every single version of these events say that Sasuke is 5-B physically, and so is Naruto. The anime shows Sasuke fighting Momoshiki physically on multiple occasions, not only with the Chidori Blade. He kicks Momoshiki in the face as well. The original movie has Sasuke physically fighting Momoshiki too.

You, IMade, are trying to go against everything we know from the series. Please stop.
 
The scan Kep posted in his rebuttal to that scene doesn't at all imply what his words are saying. As though SPSM Kurama Avatar is equal to Naruto's SPSM w/o the cloak...
 
BlackeJan said:
If u honestly think that Base Naruto could scale to his SOSP then that's a hell no right there. All Kep-sama did was just half the powers of Hagoromo and Haruma to get results for Naruto/Sasuke so I did cool math to get what a estimate would be for Base Naruto/Base Hokage Naruto
Click to expand...
Bruh u do understand no one said to scale base Naruto to SOSP Naruto right??? You keep bringing that up man. He didn't get half of Hamura power. He took half of Hags power cause Hag states he gave his powers to both Naruto and Sasuke
 
I brought it up cause I thought that was what y'all were trying to do in last thread unless I read what Kep-same said wrongly
 
1.)The positioning doesn't support Sasuke actually having swung his Chidori Sabre. He rose the blade up to the right side. If he swung the blade, it would be down to his left. Your analysis of the scene is wrong, it wouldn't be down to his right if he swung. In addition to this, you are the one assuming things about this scene. We see (1)Sasuke Raise the blade (2)React to something (3)Get knockee backed. In the panel we see the hit occur, the positioning of the blade and Sasuke in no way supports the notion he attacked or blocked with the sword. Occams Razor works against your own argument. And the anime is not cano

2.)Sasuke tanking Kaguya's toss equally as Naruto in no way leads to "Disastrous scaling". Nobody scales to Naruto or Sasuke except God tiers. As Proven, SPSM is not significantly above Base Naruto regardless as both have access to SPC. You and Kep keep harping on a "one panel feat", but said feat is valid and backed up again by Sasuke previously tanking a hit from Limbo. And I addressed this in the last thread, but Kep's argument about Sasuke "needing" PS to match SPSM Naruto Physically is misleading as it's the opposite. SPSM Naruto needed his Kurama Avatar to Match Sasuke's PS. So yes, feats tell you that Sasuke is physically comparable to SPSM Naruto.

Again, SPSM Naruto is only "Insignificantly Stronger" than his base and Rinnegan Sasuke due to 50% Kurama's Chakra + Unquantifiable fractions Biju Chakras coming together to make an extra "Unquantifiable Amount" of SPC that amounts to a fraction of a Juubi Jin's Chakra.

So as things stand, Base Naruto and Sasuke are 5-B physically.
 
I wouldn't say SPSM is only "insignificantly" stronger, but that Base Naruto are at the same Tier as those he fights, and those characters are stronger than him, but not enough to blitz or one shot like they should. If Base Naruto is 7-A, he should probably be MHS too. Except we see him in Base also reacting to characters who are comparable to his stronger forms. This must mean that Naruto is in the same tier of his stronger form, because if he wasn't, he wouldn't be able to defend himself. Keep in mind me we know Naruto is significantly weaker in Base compared to these characters because in every instance, he keeps up only enough to stay alive, as everyone he fights of that tier still noticeably outclasses him. Sasuke and Momoshiki, that is.

I think the "negligible amounts of Biju and Kurama Chakra" argument makes sense from an AP chart standpoint, where adding Tier 6 won't really put you at much stronger than tier 5, but that's unsupported in the Manga itself...?

Either way, it's irrelevant. Both that point, and the debate whether or not SPSM has its own SPC source.

We do know Sasuke can channel SPC through his body though... That's what the Onyx Chidori is, that's what the amp in speed would be, that's what the amp in strength is.

Sasuke is 5-B physically.

Basically... To add on to TFO, the position of his arms and the little dust effect that comes from hitting someone in this manga suggest that he brought his right arm up to defend himself from a strike. Sasuke in the previous panels had his left and right hands on the Chidori Spear/Blade before swinging. The idea that we should perceive him lifting his arm to cross his body, crouching over as he gets pushed back to curl up defensively, and the little contact effect that appears in almost all kinds of manga to illustrate where the character was hit matching the idea that Sasuke himself had physically blocked the shot... Implies Sasuke tanked a hit. By blocking it. With his arms. Hence the blocking position of his arms that doesn't at all match up with a sword swing and the Chakra sword itself being deflected like it was in the anime. So while it is true that he was going for a swing, Sasuke, in the manga, blocks the attack with his arms instead of being knocked back by a Limbo Clone hitting the Chakra Sword.

Also, the anime and other media has scenes of Sasuke and Naruto fighting Momoshiki physically and has Sasuke fighting Base Naruto physically, which supports panels from the Manga— the clash Naruto has with Sasuke, and the punch that Sasuke nocked Momoshiki away with. Literally everything before the Manga retread demonstrates that Sasuke is 5-B physically for bodily harming characters that were throwing hands and trading blows with SPSM Naruto. So, IMade, if you wanna use the anime, we can. Even the Boruto movie supported this before the Retreads, so to say that suddenly the idea is different now is rather ridiculous when we have panels— however small or short— demonstrating the same thing the anime and movie has. Any further decision to use the anime for that but not anything else is cherrypicking.

TFO, you forgot a feat where Sasuke was cutting through the 5-B earth style dog Jutsu that Momoshiki used on Sasuke in the Manga. He cut it without any electricity surrounding his sword, suggesting that he is 5-B for cutting through a 5-B Attack with his own strength. Because it doesn't matter how sharp or hard a sword is if you don't have the strength to cut with it.

This "Disastrous Scaling" idea doesn't really exist if you ignore the Sage Mode Toneri thing— which already assumes a 10x multiplier is even applicable when further showings in the series contradict SPSM, a Superior Sage Mode having that large of a boost on a character's Base abilities. Not saying Sage Mode doesn't amp strength, i'm just saying that the feats consistently go against the idea that SPSM or "better Sage Mode" is a massive stat amp when we see Naruto not be blitzed by characters he should be if his speed and strength were as amped as we believe they should initially.

I recommend we either cut Naruto's SPSM by x10 or x20 and give his base that, or we drop the x10 Multiplier for Sage Mode, and I like the later because being x20 slower than someone doesn't put you st the speed necessary to barely dodge and block their hits.
 
On the topic of Sage Mode, it seems it only amps Lifting Strength a considerable amount. I get the implication from that lifting showing is that his striking strength is also considerably higher, but the gap between the striking strength of his base and his previous form seems roughly the same as the SPSM stuff, since Base Naruto does fight with Pain briefly, being at a disadvantage that isn't crippling enough to result in his end like it should if he is not at all in the same tier as Pain. Though, that might be an anime exclusive.

Regardless, Base Naruto should be comparable to his older SPSM version without the cloak in AP, because his Base form Massive Rasengan was able to clap Momoshiki, while his SPSM form did the same to a far weaker character— Juudara.
 
@Amexim

Base Naruto is only slower than these other guys. He scales from Base Sasuke. This has always been the case with Sasuke. Naruto is physically slower than Sasuke but rivals or exceeds him in other areas without cloaks.

In both the Manga and Anime, Naruto could take, dodge and block Momoshiki's attacks in base but needed the cloak to keep up due to the speed disadvantage.

_____________________________

As far as SM goes, SM is shown giving Massive Amps to:

  • Ninjutsu
  • Speed (Travel/Reaction)
  • Strength (Lifting)
  • Durability
It's not uniform across all areas, as in the case of striking strength, it varies between characters, for instance, Naruto being able to take on pain in base and overpower him in SM easily. Note, the 10× statement in regards to the CSM only said in regards to "power".

Also, there are no "Contradictions" with SPSM. As already proven, Base Naruto is already tier 5-B and not much weaker than SPSM. Both are around 200zt. Ashura Avatar scales above The Last KCSM Naruto, who due to SM scales to the 2 yotaton range. And idek where this SPSM = Higher Form of SM comes from, it is not stated to be such in the DB or Manga and feats disprove that notion.

Ashura Avatar ~ KCSM (2 Yotatons) > SPSM ~ Base Naruto (200z zetatons).

This puts Toneri on the same level as Ashura Avatar and Biju-Susanoo and explains why dominates Base Naruto.
 
I wouldn't say Base Sasuke is as fast as Base Naruto, no. I think that our differences in philosophies are that I want to preserve the idea that the SPSM actually boosts him significantly, though, of course, not enough to make them in different tiers.

But, uh... You do know that SPSM is the Sage of Six Paths Mode. Logic would dictate that Hagoromo's Sage Power is greater than any standard Sage Mode... Just as logic would dictate that SPSM, which boosts all stats including speed... If Base Sasuke scales to Base Naruto from the SPSM form, then it kind of is a contradiction. Of course the speed difference is relatively marginal in the grand scheme, but I think this is evidence of a problem I feel you have.

You scale KCSM above SPSM, which should be orders of magnitudes stronger— as Naruto can gather Sage Chakra extremely quickly. That's strange, because logic would dictate that Six Path Sage Mode would be better than standard Sage Mode in the same way the Curse Mark is inferior to Sage Mode. I think that this whole x10 notion should be disregarded instead, as standard Sage Mode would just be superior to SPSM and would be used far more often— but isn't.
 
@Amexim

  • I'm not saying Sasuke is as fast as Naruto, i'm saying in Travel Speed, he's faster. Naruto can only keep up through reaction speed in base. This has always been the case since part 1. As far as SPSM goes, it unfortunately doesn't.
Base Naruto = 50% Hagoromo Chakra

SPSM (War Arc) = 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Unquantifiable Ammount of SPC (50% Kurama + Unquantifiable Fraction of Biju Chakras 1-8)

^The added Chakra SPSM has over base Naruto makes him Unquantifiably Stronger than base, and Base Naruto's Feats prove it is not "Significant".

  • SPSM isn't Automatically > SM. Chapter 696 proves this. Aside from speed, SPSM has not been proven to significantly amp base Naruto. This is a fact. "Logic" dictates SPSM cannot be significantly stronger.
  • You have a misconception on how SM actually works from the looks of it.
No disrespect btw man, we basically agree ocerall, just disagree on the details. Lol
 
Y'all do know this won't get anywhere unless more people actually comment on here....unless y'all can get this highlighted
 
BlackeJan said:
Y'all do know this won't get anywhere unless more people actually comment on here....unless y'all can get this highlighted
Click to expand...
This is not highlight worthy by any means.
 
^

Can't be too bad. The Fairy Tail of MHS+ was highlighted so why couldn't this? we will literally not get anywhere cause we don't have anytime else other then Kep-sama himself commenting
 
Yeah, we agree on the broader points. My thing is that I believe we interpret "significant" differently. To me, Base Naruto is about x2-x4 slower and weaker than Base Sasuke is at most, and SPSM closes that gap. The difference between the edge of normal human speed & reactions and Subsonic or FTE is about x7 Times. I know we don't have stated ratio difference between characters, and I'm not trying to create actual scaling based off of that border— but i'm trying to illustrate the difference between them as best I can.

Point is, Naruto isn't consistently getting struck with what are FTE attacks from his perspective, but is still being outpaced in H2H by all other 5-B characters. I wouldn't say blocking some of a character's hits with immense difficulty makes your reactions equal. Even irl, when someone is punching really fast at you and all you can do is barely block— you get overwhelmed despite being able to see and defend yourself. You can see the attacks, but you can't really handle them as effectively as you could if they weren't as fast for you.

To me, true "blitzing" is when an enemy is FTE from your perspective, and you can't even react to them. Like Bullets in our world— we can't even see them. Of course, there are plenty of instances where you could see what was happening but couldn't register or notice that you should do something about it, but that goes into the problems of what we can define as "reaction speed".

My idea is that Naruto isn't boosted like 10x or even 5x if you want to be scrutible about what really happens when you're reacting to a strike, but it certainly boosts him enough so that his speed and strength are equal to or greater than Sasuke's when Sasuke was marginally superior to him otherwise.

The reason I consider Blitzing to be a x7 gap personally is because there's no way you can react to something you can see. And while it may be better to go with when the brain actually processes a defense to a stimuli instead of going by a complete blitz for specifics, because often times we see things for hundreds of milliseconds before we actually realize what is in front of us, I think my point still stands as it's definitively... Something.

I mean, I would think even x3 is significant. To me, a 30% increase is significant. Anything that's not above 1.

But generally speaking, I suppose we're on the same page, except for Sage Mode being inferior to SPSM, but the feats don't lie, so...
 
Eh i woudnt say Naruto is slow by that much. Remeber Sasuke ALWAYS uses his sharigan so for Base Naruto to be able to keep up is quite impressive. If i was to have this in PL....

Base Sasuke: 10

Base Naruto: 7.5

EDIT: well again u guys this wont go anywhere unless we actually get more people on here other then Kep
 
You guys cannot say Base Sasuke is stronger. He's just faster, nothing more.

Base Sasuke and Naruto both have access and can use The SPC that was given to them. The only thing is Their bases have been equally amped from pre Madara killing them.
 
BlackeJan said:
^

Can't be too bad. The Fairy Tail of MHS+ was highlighted so why couldn't this? we will literally not get anywhere cause we don't have anytime else other then Kep-sama himself commenting
Click to expand...
Cause we are only discussing the tiers of 2 characters in base.
 
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