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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

Gokukid2005 said:
HcWRodz.png
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What's this page from? The Shinobi Columns?
 
MinatoSparkle said:
Eh idt you could really prove them to be the same, and they do seem to function differently, with how he can make them into dozens.

Obviously JJs can "create" them when they first get them, I'm talking about after that. Unstable Juubito had 2, then developed the other 7 when he stabilized, and after that is only shown creating one when he loses Juubi chakra then gets some back

Or they're just different situations.

Example?
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They don’t have to be proven to be the same ability. They are already presented as the same ability. You’re making the claim they aren’t the same based on Toneri using them differently, but that’s faulty because even the databook asserts their usage is dependent on the creativity of the user.

If the argument is “Prove them to be”, then they shouldn’t be viewed as TSB anyways, although iirc, Retsu no Sho establishes them as the same as well but again, that’s iirc.

Also, some details are being glossed over. Kishimoto established that becoming a JJ doesn’t automatically grant you these abilities with Mindless Juubito, whom again, had none upon becoming a JJ. He CREATED 2 of them for himself BEFORE regaining his senses and becoming a “Fully Realized” JJ, WHEREIN he spawned several more.

DMS Obito absorbing Six Paths Chakra from Madara doesn’t equate him to being a JJ. So the argument that, THAT is the reason he gained a TSB is Faulty, otherwise, DMS Kakashi would’ve had one when he gained Obito’s Chakra.

So if you want to make the argument Toneri doesn’t have TSBs, you can, but I disagree with that notion. Aside from that, nothing in the series states they CAN’T be recreated. I maintain that Kishi simply applied PIS & CIS to Naruto and Madara because he has already shown they can. Not to mention the Databook expressly states the ETSB was created using Shinobi Chakra, meaning they CAN be produced through their own chakra as well, as with ALL Jutsu.
 
TFO said:
They don’t have to be proven to be the same ability. They are already presented as the same ability. You’re making the claim they aren’t the same based on Toneri using them differently, but that’s faulty because even the databook asserts their usage is dependent on the creativity of the user.

If the argument is “Prove them to be”, then they shouldn’t be viewed as TSB anyways, although iirc, Retsu no Sho establishes them as the same as well but again, that’s iirc.
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Still don't think it's the most logical to automatically assume TCM Toneri's TSOs have the same properties as JJs' just because they look the same.
TFO said:
Also, some details are being glossed over. Kishimoto established that becoming a JJ doesn’t automatically grant you these abilities with Mindless Juubito, whom again, had none upon becoming a JJ. He CREATED 2 of them for himself BEFORE regaining his senses and becoming a “Fully Realized” JJ, WHEREIN he spawned several more.

DMS Obito absorbing Six Paths Chakra from Madara doesn’t equate him to being a JJ. So the argument that, THAT is the reason he gained a TSB is Faulty, otherwise, DMS Kakashi would’ve had one when he gained Obito’s Chakra.

So if you want to make the argument Toneri doesn’t have TSBs, you can, but I disagree with that notion. Aside from that, nothing in the series states they CAN’T be recreated. I maintain that Kishi simply applied PIS & CIS to Naruto and Madara because he has already shown they can. Not to mention the Databook expressly states the ETSB was created using Shinobi Chakra, meaning they CAN be produced through their own chakra as well, as with ALL Jutsu.
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JJs can definitely create TSOs as they obviously don't have them before they enter the form, but if anything it seems there might be a max limit to how many they can make in total, which would explain how Juubito's number of TSOs can vary and why Naruto and Madara never spawned extra ones beyond the 9 they initially had.

Obviously not, but that's why he only had 1 TSO, cause he had just enough Juubi chakra to do that. DMS Kakashi didn't have a TSO cause the Juubi chakra Obito had used to make a TSO staff was still in the Kamui dimension
8-8f6JpeHmp_5IS.jpg
 
Kakashi's perfect Susano'o is probably stronger than Fourth War Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o but it sucks that we haven't seen any feats for it
 
MinatoSparkle said:
Still don't think it's the most logical to automatically assume TCM Toneri's TSOs have the same properties as JJs' just because they look the same.

JJs can definitely create TSOs as they obviously don't have them before they enter the form, but if anything it seems there might be a max limit to how many they can make in total, which would explain how Juubito's number of TSOs can vary and why Naruto and Madara never spawned extra ones beyond the 9 they initially had.

Obviously not, but that's why he only had 1 TSO, cause he had just enough Juubi chakra to do that. DMS Kakashi didn't have a TSO cause the Juubi chakra Obito had used to make a TSO staff was still in the Kamui dimension
8-8f6JpeHmp_5IS.jpg
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Tbh, the argument isn't even over "different properties". Toneri LITERALLY had his destroyed and recreated new ones after. That isn't a "Jutsu has different properties" argument. Btw, you keep saying they have different properties, but do they really? Obito showcased Jutsu usage through them, healing, Shape Transformation, etc. Toneri only showcased Jutsu usage and shape transformation. By the logic you're presenting, again, we shouldn't assume Toneri even HAS TSB's. Again, i disagree with that notion. There is absolutely nothing supporting the notion that Toneri doesn't have TSB or that they have different properties. His usage of them is covered by the Databook entry describing the capabilities of the TSB anyways. Is this not a true statement?

I agree that there may be a limit to "How many" they can have at once, but my point is, if they are destroyed, they "can" make more. Again, Mindless Juubito had 0, Created 2. DMS Obito had 0, created 1. Kaguya had 0, created 1. Toneri had 0 after Naruto destroyed his, created several more. Again, in regards to DMS Obito, having Six Paths Chakra is not the same as being a JJ. DMS Didn'y "Spawn" a TSB like how Naruto and Madara did or even himself when he regained control, it was slowly created.

Again, let's look at the factors.
  1. The TSB are only used by those with Six Paths Chakra.
  2. Characters have been shown CREATING TSB's, when they had none, despite already having the Power Set required.
  3. The TSB's are SIMPLY Highly Dense CHakra Sphere's containing All Chakra Natures & Yin/Yang, Compared to Jinton Mechanics (Combination of 3 Chakra Elements).
  4. The Databook nor any other source states they can't be recreated.
  5. The Databook Asserts they can be created through Chakra Usage, like any other Jutsu (ETSB Description).
At this point, there is far more supporting them being able to recreate them as opposed to not, and the instances of Madara and Naruto not doing so, can be chocked up to PIS & CIS. IDK why we're levying arbitrary nerfs when nothing has confirmed these stances saying it's not possible.
 
Also tbf almost all of Naruto's opponents after his final battle with Sasuke can resist TSO ( Otsutsuki )

With the exception of Delta that is ( who he wouldn't even need them against seeing how he beat her already )

So even if he did recreate them they would be near useless

Now don't get me wrong, still wish he kept them but what I say is true
 
TFO said:
Tbh, the argument isn't even over "different properties". Toneri LITERALLY had his destroyed and recreated new ones after. That isn't a "Jutsu has different properties" argument. Btw, you keep saying they have different properties, but do they really?
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I didn't say they definitely have different properties, I'm just saying we don't have enough information to definitively treat them as the same. And like they literally become green and yellow, when they're just passively floating around him they're much smaller than regular TSOs, and they can become hundreds of projectiles, they really don't seem the same. Even if they are technically the same ability, Toneri could have much more mastery over the technique than Obito or Madara which allows him to continuously create them unlike them.
TFO said:
I agree that there may be a limit to "How many" they can have at once, but my point is, if they are destroyed, they "can" make more. Again, Mindless Juubito had 0, Created 2. DMS Obito had 0, created 1. Kaguya had 0, created 1. Toneri had 0 after Naruto destroyed his, created several more. Again, in regards to DMS Obito, having Six Paths Chakra is not the same as being a JJ. DMS Didn'y "Spawn" a TSB like how Naruto and Madara did or even himself when he regained control, it was slowly created.
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No no what I'm saying is that they may have a max to the amount they can ever create. None of them ever created more than 9 TSOs in total other than Obito when he lost the power and regained some of it.
TFO said:
Again, let's look at the factors.
  1. The TSB are only used by those with Six Paths Chakra.
  2. Characters have been shown CREATING TSB's, when they had none, despite already having the Power Set required.
  3. The TSB's are SIMPLY Highly Dense CHakra Sphere's containing All Chakra Natures & Yin/Yang, Compared to Jinton Mechanics (Combination of 3 Chakra Elements).
  4. The Databook nor any other source states they can't be recreated.
  5. The Databook Asserts they can be created through Chakra Usage, like any other Jutsu (ETSB Description).
At this point, there is far more supporting them being able to recreate them as opposed to not, and the instances of Madara and Naruto not doing so, can be chocked up to PIS & CIS. IDK why we're levying arbitrary nerfs when nothing has confirmed these stances saying it's not possible.
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That's some pretty big PIS for such a powerful ability.
 
Huh...After the Minato one shot, I REALLY wonder what he would've done for Hagoromo if he had won. Seeing as he chose to do the story on the creation of the Rasengan, he'd probably have done the establishment of Ninshu, seeing as Kishimoto likes to preach.
 
AnimesFreak2 said:
Also tbf almost all of Naruto's opponents after his final battle with Sasuke can resist TSO ( Otsutsuki )

With the exception of Delta that is ( who he wouldn't even need them against seeing how he beat her already )

So even if he did recreate them they would be near useless

Now don't get me wrong, still wish he kept them but what I say is true
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I mean, he can still just stab people with them.
 
Blood prison is Canon in nearly everything. We have gotten so many references to that movie that it's absurd. Like nearly every single medium has had a direct reference to it. The only reason why we can't accept it as Canon is because it doesn't fit timeline wise.
 
And I'm not talking just vague references. Like we have had characters references specific events lol. Based on a lot of reference material. The movies that likely are Canon but can't really fit timeline wise are road to the ninja,land of snow and blood prison.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
And I'm not talking just vague references. Like we have had characters references specific events lol. Based on a lot of reference material. The movies that likely are Canon but can't really fit timeline wise are road to the ninja,land of snow and blood prison.
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Road to ninja doesn't even make any sense to be considered canon. Except we somehow have multiple versions/interpretations of infinite tsukiyomis.
Not to mention Kurama coming out of Naruto to fight Menma's Kurama. That's seems bs to be canon.
 
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Tdjwo said:
Road to ninja doesn't even make any sense to be considered canon. Except we somehow have multiple versions/interpretations of infinite tsukiyomis.
Not to mention Kurama coming out of Naruto to fight Menma's Kurama. That's seems bs to be canon.
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It was a dream.
 
Imo, I font think it should be considered canon. It doesn't fit anywhere in the timeline. Isn't Jiraiya supposed to be dead before Naruto learns sage mode? The movie didn't realize that.
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
And I'm not talking just vague references. Like we have had characters references specific events lol. Based on a lot of reference material. The movies that likely are Canon but can't really fit timeline wise are road to the ninja,land of snow and blood prison.
Click to expand...
Aside from the prison itself, what were the other references to the movie? Maybe it’s just portrayal and characters that’re canon? Like how Naruto “killing” the one guy who is Buntan’s father is canon, but not the original Anime Filler Arc, which iirc, focused more on Rock Lee.
 
theres an entire anime arc where they go to the blood prison in Boruto and the characters from the movie appears and references the specific events of that movie as well
 
TFO said:
Aside from the prison itself, what were the other references to the movie? Maybe it’s just portrayal and characters that’re canon? Like how Naruto “killing” the one guy who is Buntan’s father is canon, but not the original Anime Filler Arc, which iirc, focused more on Rock Lee.
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tbf that arc (the curry of life) should prob be made canon as even Kishi referenced in the manga. thats also ignoring theres actually a ton of evidence that kishi was heavily involved with the anime's production but thats niehter here nor there lol. and by the wiki standards most of these wont be accepted outside the curry of life maybe.
 
Tdjwo said:
Road to ninja doesn't even make any sense to be considered canon. Except we somehow have multiple versions/interpretations of infinite tsukiyomis.
Not to mention Kurama coming out of Naruto to fight Menma's Kurama. That's seems bs to be canon.
Click to expand...
That was explained in the movie, Naruto and Kurama did a temporary truce because it was the only way he could fight Menma at his current state (that and I assume the ones making the movie didn't want them to use the Kurama Modes for some reason).
 
BlastX said:
That was explained in the movie, Naruto and Kurama did a temporary truce because it was the only way he could fight Menma at his current state (that and I assume the ones making the movie didn't want them to use the Kurama Modes for some reason).
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The truce isn't what I'm talking about. It's the mere fact that Kurama physically left Naruto's seal without Naruto dying. That makes no sense.
 
Oh that! I think the idea they had for the movies is probably like some sort of summoning jutsu/Bijuu Mode that have them summon their Bijuu but it doesn't count as them leaving thier body or something.

And like, didn't in The Last Kurama could exist physically outside of Naruto and didn't die? It's like the same thing here, since Naruto's truce with Kurama is presented as him being a Perfect Jinchuriki.
 
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