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Naruto Planet Size

Xerkser500 said:
I honestly agree with Tata here.

It's either we accept this method for any verse using maps for calculations or bust and downgrade them all.

Cheery picking verses to give one special treatment over the other is bad.
Click to expand...
If we're gonna go Darks route all of a sudden, then we need to downgrade all verses who use maps to scale their planets sizes.
 
Also it should be noted that if you scaled the mountain to the size of even a normal planet in that god tree shot you'd find that they hilariously dwarf Mount Everest and span most of Europe.
 
There's absolutely no reason for kishi to verbally confirm whether the planet is bigger or not, when we have visual proof that it is

Mountains prior to this have been shown to be 3.5km tall easily, tall mountains aren't new in Narutoverse not to mention EVERY single shots of mountain is inconsistent, Kishi doesn't know how to draw them

At times they're hundreds of meters tall and at other times they're tens of kilometers tall, it's nonsensical to reject the entire countries size based on something that's been inconsistent the entire series. Every shot of the frost country shows it spanning thousands of kilometers wide at its thinnest, even the lowest end would put this above normal planet size.
 
It's all inconsistent, Tata. Artists don't really do proportions correctly for very large things, and planetary features are certainly one of them. All this map scaling, country or otherwise, is using something that is inconsistently portrayed and abusing that to make a planet that has no reason to be beyond Earth sized into freaking Neptune.

We should use scaling when we have no notion of how big something is, not when an accepted norm is present. That is like scaling Gru from Despicable Me to his minions to make him a 14 foot tall giant instead of treating him like an average/slightly above average man. Or scaling him to a normal human and going from there.

I mean it's unrelated, since fiction, but the planets you're describing are so large they're going to undergo gravitational collapse and turn into stars.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
It's all inconsistent, Tata. Artists don't really do proportions correctly for very large things, and planetary features are certainly one of them.
Click to expand...
Ok i mean if we're going off this we should scrap pixel scaling for everything large?

This calc doesn't do anything that other calcs we've accepted before does. Everything we ever pixel scale is "inconsistent" if we're also using that, characters can be 1.8 meters via scaling one panel and 1.75 the next, artists aren't really bothered about pinpoint sizes but again, we still accept pixel scaling for those

As for the planet not having any business being larger than Normal, there have been statements such as Juubi's chakra being stated to be small planet in size next to the sensing radar of the shinobi which wasn't even = the full size of the planet

Kinshiki explaining that the planet had more space curvatures than usual, something related to the curving of space due to mass, indicating a higher mass than a planet of its size

And yeah as you said in your last point, no need to adress that.

The arguments are all based around not the calc itself but treating it differently to how we treat other situations, i feel like if this were not Naruto it would've been a lot easier to Accept

Not that i'm insinuating that any of you are biased, just that the wiki is harsh on the HST.
 
TataHakai said:
As for the planet not having any business being larger than Normal, there have been statements such as Juubi's chakra being stated to be small planet in size next to the sensing radar of the shinobi which wasn't even = the full size of the planet
Click to expand...
This literally isn't a point. The Juubi's Chakra being a small planet doesn't make the actual planet a big planet.

Kinshiki explaining that the planet had more space curvatures than usual, something related to the curving of space due to mass, indicating a higher mass than a planet of its size
When does this happen?

It's not in the manga, so it's not primary canon.

If it's from the anime then it's possibly secondary canon.

It's not from the movie.

If it's from the movie novel then it's not canon.

Not that i'm insinuating that any of you are biased, just that the wiki is harsh on the HST.

Bleach and One Piece sure (Remember High 6-B + Relativistic One Piece and 5-B Bleach?) , but the wiki is pretty generous to Naruto.

To make an original point, it's also pretty blatant that the God Tree is not as huge as thought before and the roots probably aren't even over a dozen kilometers in length.

Clouds
You could just use cloud heights to see how tall the God Tree is.

Clouds above the roots and closer to the start of the trunk.

Clouds above the roots and above the start of the trunk.

Clouds even higher than the roots as they aren't even visible.

Clouds far above the nearest root and far above the start of the trunk.

Clouds in the background, but much higher than the roots.

A cloud closer towards the middle of the trunk, far above the roots.

Clouds closer towards the middle of the trunk.

Clouds so high the roots aren't visible.

The Bijuu
You can use the Bijuu when they're standing around the roots to disprove the roots being so huge. These can be further scaled by the rocks on the ground of the battlefield. They have similar shapes and sizes as seen here.

The Bijuu lined up in front of a root, you can see the top of the roof and the Bijuu are pretty close to it.

Bijuu and Madara's Susano'o for scale to a nearby root, Madara's body for scale.

The Bijuu and people on the battlefield rocks in front of a nearby root.

Bijuu by a root and a second root visible towards the right of the panel.

Sasuke and His Susano'o
Sasuke's Susano'o cuts one of the roots and we literally get a direct size comparison with one (you can see Sasuke inside the Susano'o head).

There are some that will complain that this root wasn't the size of the others, but that's wrong misleading. We later see that cut root by an actual root and they are of similar size.

Under the Roots
The roots being so long, thus very wide, can be disproven with the view of the roots from below.

The curvature of a root visible from under it from Hashirama's position.

The entire width of a root visible from Orochimaru's position.

The entire height of the tree clearly visible from Hashirama's new position.

Captain Yamato's Shinju
We can compare Captain Yamato's Shinju to the God Tree for size.

A root and the start of the trunk of the God Tree are visible and very close per the art. As the art directly shows, the Shinju's hands are comparable in size to nearby people, making it pretty damn small.

Conclusion
The art does not portray it as big neither, in fact I wouldn't even say the roots are a kilometer in width, nothing supports that. Plus, the art is clearly not consistent as we've all seen. It ranges heavily; however, it's range is still small yet still a large range.

I like to rely on statements usually for the size of things in manga since mangaka tend to not be consistent with their art, but their words do or at least they value their statements more in terms of plot. Thus, the singular possible size statement for the God Tree:

Gaara's Several Kilometer Statement
Gaara stated that from their position it is several kilometers to Minato's position.

So, we need to know two things:

1) Gaara's position.

2) Minato's position.

To answer point 1 we must realize that Gaara makes this statement literally after picking up Sakura. So we must figure out where Sakura's position was.

As we saw in the scan, Sakura was by Yamato's Shinju which was close to the starts of the roots as the base of the trunk was nearby. To further prove this, when Sakura and Tsunade summon Katsuyu to their position we see that they summoned Katsuyu in the inner crater of the God Tree crater that is very close to the starts of the roots.

So now where was Minato? Minato was in the smaller crater that Obito made when he pushed Naruto and Sasuke into the ground, so where did Obito do that? Oh yeah, Obito did that in the inner crater.

  • So Minato's position was by the starts of the roots in the inner crater.
  • Gaara's position was by the starts of the roots in the inner crater.
So now we need a visual of the inner crater at least to scale from the ends of the crater or the starts of the roots from different sides.

With this scan and even the assumption that Gaara and Minato were at exact opposite ends on top of the several kilometers statement the roots' lengths arent as long as the inner crater's diameter.

The roots wouldn't be several kilometers fully, kilometers for sure, but not several.

I would say the Naruto Earth calc is entirely incorrect and we should just assume a regular Earth size due inconsistent art and the basis of the Earth calc (the God Tree) is nowhere near as large as assumed.

Also, that a new calc should be made for the height of the God Tree given the calcs we use it for as the current accepted size is grossly over-inflated.
 
Unless you're Toriko with actual evidence of a bigger than regular Earth size, it should be assumed to be regular Earth size.

All these calcs to prove a bigger Earth seems desperate for upgrades.
 
The anime is full canon before we get passed the genin graduation arc. Everything after the genin graduation arc besides Chocho arc is considered secondary canon. Kinshiki spoke about the curvatures earlier in the Boruto anime which makes it canon and that was during the Nue arc I believe


We only accepted the anime as secondary canon after the genin graduation arc after the interview with Kodachi. We had already considered everything before the genin graduation arc as full canon
 
"When does this happen?

It's not in the manga, so it's not primary canon.

If it's from the anime then it's possibly secondary canon."

It's from the anime, which is accepted as secondary canon and not contradicted by anything

"To make an original point, it's also pretty blatant that the God Tree is not as huge as thought before and the roots probably aren't even over a dozen kilometers in length."

It's kind of ironic because you argued continually for pixel scaling to be fine with Bleach's Seiretei and Hueco mundo's calcs even though they are just as inconistent as the god tree, as for all of your scans they are somewhat asinine, i would go through them one by one but i really can't be bothered with that stupidity so i'll just go through some of them.

For example your use of the Gaara statement is pointless considering the definition of the word "several" it literally means more than few and not many, though "many" is an interchangeable word depending on what the distance is to the person, for someone who can move thousands of times the speed of sound thousands of kilometers isn't "many"

You've essentially cherry picked a bunch of scans, from up close, ignoring that if we ignore artistic liberty then Kishimoto would need every page with the root tree in the background to be entirely white since it'd be taken up by the god tree (read this over a few times until you get why your points are ridicilous)

An example of this cherry picking and ignoring of artistic liberty is "Well uhh why could Hashirama see the god tree from below!!", like Kishi clearly doesn't care about the actual size at that point and is intending to simply show us that Hashirama is having thoughts about the god tree which he needs to look at to do

Your debating style is an actual joke Imade, and writing out essays doesn't do you any justice when most of it is filled with rubbish.
 
" even though they are just as inconistent as the god tree "

waaay more inconsistent, you might end up thinking they are not the same place. Like when I had not yet read Bleach.
 
Lets not turn this into another HST butting heads situation please? Or else the topic is going to be completely brushed off.

Though from an overall perspective of this debate, Tata has made very good points. Just because drawing proportions and sizes are inconsistent (which they obviously are/going to be as no sane artist for any fiction is ever going to waste time to try drawing something exactly the same panel for panel) doesnt mean we suddenly can't accept the sizes they give to us. Unless your seriously advocating that a manga artist needs to take time and be 100% exact on every panel, the drawing is obviously going to be inconsistent at times. Therefore, we go with what we can prove and leave it at that. The counter-arguments in themselves look very hypocritical too.

We accept pixel scaling despite the obvious inconsistencies in drawing proportions. But if we were to apply this argument to their legitimacy and argue pixel scaling should be disgarded completely, it would be bullshit. So how is scaling planetary sizes this way suddenly different?

I also have to find fault in the arguments of "the creator needs to confirm it." Theres such a thing as "no shit", something thats obvious. If X can be proven in-verse by its own readers disgretion, then why is an author statement needed? Authors only comment on stuff that their respective series DOESNT make clear. Not something thats very clearly noticeable. Expecting to be spoon fed every little tid bit of information ultimately makes gathering evidence far too restrictive and for absurd reasons. This site already rejects any kind of author answer to fans (like a fan asking if Goku can destroy universes or if Alien X is omnipotent) to stop upgrades out of the ordinary, yet we turn around and say we need an author statement to confirm if x is legit? Choose one or the other.

Finally, im also finding it kind of funny that some here are so quick to latch onto Darkanine's reply to this thread, even though he himself literally said he has no actual opinion on the topic. No offense, but this just looks like people desperately trying to find quick counter-argumenative opportunities in an attempt to disagree with the upgrade as much as possible.
 
@Omimi

Tell me what planets are calced using these methods and I'd certainly love to.

Naruto isn't the only one who has this problem. Calling planet sizes using artist renditions of planetary proportions is just not something I can get behind no matter the verse. Unless we have a reason to believe that the planet is larger than Earth aside from this planetary scaling stuff I just can't get behind this at all.
 
Again, regardless of the verse, unless it is actually implied or stated to be larger than earth, I don't see whya this calcs should be accepted.

Because planets with sizes that dwarfs some starts (might be an exageration here, but I remember One Piece having it rejected) is not something that I can behind either.
 
I am fairly sure Toriko is the only example of us actually safely applying a higher Earth size, and that doesn't come from a calc - the circumference of Toriko's Earth is outright stated on-panel.

One Piece changes calcs every minute and day.
 
I don't really know FT, but I suppose it can be looked into.


Still tough, "others do it" shouldn't be an argument for doing something. At most it's an argument to make them change it too, unless someone can give a logic for witch to aply the thing.
 
Hence Omimi's comment:

" then start to downgrades all other vers planet if not then dont use that rule for only one vers "
 
Yeah. As long as the verse doesn't actually have a bigger planet in lore, sure.

Tough, I'd prefer someone actually knowledgable about the verses to be contacted for stuff like that.
 
While I for one don't mind it if other verses who do this get downgraded as well to remain consistently fair, I honestly still don't see why a verses setting or world needs to be stated in-verse to be bigger than ours to apply bigger sizes.

Like I explained above, if a verse's planetary setting can be proven to be bigger than our world with methods, such as calcing, then that should be enough sufficient evidence for claming its bigger than a regular earth.

All im hearing at this point is "it seems ridiculous for x world to be y size" and thats not enough to have reasonable doubt. Not only is this based off personal feeling toward the material in question, but this is also forgetting one very common factor:

This is fiction, where it doesn't have to make sense in situations like this. Series like Naruto, One Piece, FT and countless other verses prove to differ from our world in numerous ways. Why its suddenly more difficult to believe that the size of a fictional verses planetary setting is beyond our real worlds size is...well....

Strange to put it lightly.
 
I'll give my opinion on the matter

If the planet in question isn't earth from our world, like for example, it has different countries and other geographical differences, I do not understand why we need to assume the planet is the exact same size as earth, Pixel scaling in itself would have to be dropped if we go by this method, since all artwork can be inconsistent, I don't necessarily believe we need to have to have the author himself say, yeah this planet is bigger than earth, if the scaling of the artwork indicates the planet is bigger, I see no issue with the calcs

Then again, it ain't up me, it's up to calc members, but this is my opinion
 
From what I see the calcs are based on an incorrect number that would inflate the results. The series is also inconsistent with distances or travel time like when a messenger hawk arrived in the Leaf Village two days before a serious Blank-Era Sakura and Ino could. If there's no reliable way to get a scale then I don't think we should assume a size for the planet.

Same applies to FT, OP, or any other series that relies on these calcs without greater in-universe evidence.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
From what I see the calcs are based on an incorrect number that would inflate the results. The series is also inconsistent with distances or travel time like when a messenger hawk arrived in the Leaf Village two days before a serious Blank-Era Sakura and Ino could. If there's no reliable way to get a scale then I don't think we should assume a size for the planet.

Same applies to FT, OP, or any other series that relies on these calcs without greater in-universe evidence.
Click to expand...

Tata found a better size that's not inflated. I'll have to look into that messenger hawk feat cause that may just be WIS instead
 
I'll also say this, Fairy Tail Planet has confirmed at least 3 Continents, Ishgar, the smallest of these continents alone has a diameter far greater than Earth, and all other maps of Fairy Tail also show that the diameter is far above earth, and it isn't the same earth that we live on, if we said, we can't use scaling to gestimate the planets size, then we just would have to not use the authors facts, if this also applies to Naruto, then I don't see why we can't use the measurements, we don't need to be so strict about this stuff, when there is hard evidence that proves the planet is different from our own and therefore bigger
 
To everyone saying that we'd need to just dump pixel scaling, no, not at all. Pixel scaling is used to determine the size of something to which there is no standard or size is unknown.

For this example, it would be like trying to find the height of a character that appears average instead of using the average height for his racial group. Similarly, if we see a tree that resembles, say, an oak, we will use average oak tree size to scale the image.

This would be similar to trying to find the size of an in-verse oak tree by scaling it to a wall or something instead of just using oak tree size. It's a quick path to get massively inflated stats and sizes, as evidenced by these gas giant-sized monstrosities.
 
I still agree with Assaltwaffle, Pixel Scaling is fine for some things, but not for everything and definitely not to the extent that people are proposing with Planet Sizes.
 
This literally isn't a point. The Juubi's Chakra being a small planet doesn't make the actual planet a big planet.

Kinshiki explaining that the planet had more space curvatures than usual, something related to the curving of space due to mass, indicating a higher mass than a planet of its size
When does this happen?

It's not in the manga, so it's not primary canon.

If it's from the anime then it's possibly secondary canon.

It's not from the movie.

If it's from the movie novel then it's not canon.

Not that i'm insinuating that any of you are biased, just that the wiki is harsh on the HST.

Bleach and One Piece sure (Remember High 6-B + Relativistic One Piece and 5-B Bleach?) , but the wiki is pretty generous to Naruto.

To make an original point, it's also pretty blatant that the God Tree is not as huge as thought before and the roots probably aren't even over a dozen kilometers in length.

Clouds
You could just use cloud heights to see how tall the God Tree is.

Clouds above the roots and closer to the start of the trunk.

Clouds above the roots and above the start of the trunk.

Clouds even higher than the roots as they aren't even visible.

Clouds far above the nearest root and far above the start of the trunk.

Clouds in the background, but much higher than the roots.

A cloud closer towards the middle of the trunk, far above the roots.

Clouds closer towards the middle of the trunk.

Clouds so high the roots aren't visible.

The Bijuu
You can use the Bijuu when they're standing around the roots to disprove the roots being so huge. These can be further scaled by the rocks on the ground of the battlefield. They have similar shapes and sizes as seen here.

The Bijuu lined up in front of a root, you can see the top of the roof and the Bijuu are pretty close to it.

Bijuu and Madara's Susano'o for scale to a nearby root, Madara's body for scale.

The Bijuu and people on the battlefield rocks in front of a nearby root.

Bijuu by a root and a second root visible towards the right of the panel.

Sasuke and His Susano'o
Sasuke's Susano'o cuts one of the roots and we literally get a direct size comparison with one (you can see Sasuke inside the Susano'o head).

There are some that will complain that this root wasn't the size of the others, but that's wrong misleading. We later see that cut root by an actual root and they are of similar size.

Under the Roots
The roots being so long, thus very wide, can be disproven with the view of the roots from below.

The curvature of a root visible from under it from Hashirama's position.

The entire width of a root visible from Orochimaru's position.

The entire height of the tree clearly visible from Hashirama's new position.

Captain Yamato's Shinju
We can compare Captain Yamato's Shinju to the God Tree for size.

A root and the start of the trunk of the God Tree are visible and very close per the art. As the art directly shows, the Shinju's hands are comparable in size to nearby people, making it pretty damn small.

Conclusion
The art does not portray it as big neither, in fact I wouldn't even say the roots are a kilometer in width, nothing supports that. Plus, the art is clearly not consistent as we've all seen. It ranges heavily; however, it's range is still small yet still a large range.

I like to rely on statements usually for the size of things in manga since mangaka tend to not be consistent with their art, but their words do or at least they value their statements more in terms of plot. Thus, the singular possible size statement for the God Tree:

Gaara's Several Kilometer Statement
Gaara stated that from their position it is several kilometers to Minato's position.

So, we need to know two things:

1) Gaara's position.

2) Minato's position.

To answer point 1 we must realize that Gaara makes this statement literally after picking up Sakura. So we must figure out where Sakura's position was.

As we saw in the scan, Sakura was by Yamato's Shinju which was close to the starts of the roots as the base of the trunk was nearby. To further prove this, when Sakura and Tsunade summon Katsuyu to their position we see that they summoned Katsuyu in the inner crater of the God Tree crater that is very close to the starts of the roots.

So now where was Minato? Minato was in the smaller crater that Obito made when he pushed Naruto and Sasuke into the ground, so where did Obito do that? Oh yeah, Obito did that in the inner crater.

  • So Minato's position was by the starts of the roots in the inner crater.
  • Gaara's position was by the starts of the roots in the inner crater.
So now we need a visual of the inner crater at least to scale from the ends of the crater or the starts of the roots from different sides.

With this scan and even the assumption that Gaara and Minato were at exact opposite ends on top of the several kilometers statement the roots' lengths arent as long as the inner crater's diameter.

The roots wouldn't be several kilometers fully, kilometers for sure, but not several.

I would say the Naruto Earth calc is entirely incorrect and we should just assume a regular Earth size due inconsistent art and the basis of the Earth calc (the God Tree) is nowhere near as large as assumed.

Also, that a new calc should be made for the height of the God Tree given the calcs we use it for as the current accepted size is grossly over-inflated.

Agreed
 
Unless there is something that directly contradicts a planet being bigger, such as statements of it being tge size of earth or things like that, then I don't see any fault with labeling a fictional planet that isn't our earth, bigger via calcing, the Fairy Tail calc was really only used to get diameter, and all maps put it above Earth, we shouldn't ignore this just because it makes calcs stronger, it would be an unnecessary downgrade
 
I don't know about Naruto, it seems like there are some contradictions there, but there is no contradiction of the planet of Fairy Tail being huge, all I'll say is, unless there are contradictions, then it's ok to pixel scale planets

I'm gonna leave here with that
 
Assaltwaffle said:
This would be similar to trying to find the size of an in-verse oak tree by scaling it to a wall or something instead of just using oak tree size. It's a quick path to get massively inflated stats and sizes, as evidenced by these gas giant-sized monstrosities.
Click to expand...
Let's not act like this hasn't been done before, we literally scale a mountain from a tree which is scaled from characters for the Nagato Chibaku tensei calc and there are tons more situations where this has been done

I'm not sure where the idea that this calc is doing anything that hasn't been done and accepted before is coming from.
 
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