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Naruto Calcs (Calc Group members only)

Pain's calc being inaccurate? if you're talking about the pixelscaling that's literally irrelevant to the topic at hand

Most calcs that i remember regarding PE is based on holding something in the air
 
I think that holding something in the air against the gravitational pull seems like a legitimate feat to calculate, but I am not well informed.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that holding something in the air against the gravitational pull seems like a legitimate feat to calculate, but I am not well informed.
Click to expand...
It is, this is literally how the formula for Gravitational PE works and the result comes out in joules

Mass x Height x Gravitational acceleration

We've always done it that way i don't see why it's different now
 
Maybe it is due to this requiring force without any measure of time involved?
 
I think PE is measured in joules per second anyways

If anything the result should be HIGHER since Nagato created a CT capable of holding itself up in the air for probably several minutes since he'd consistently need country levels of energy per second
 
Literally no PE calc ever has "It was held up for...." value in it because it's not important

Nor does the formula for GPE even have time in it, time is irrelevant here

All that matters is the mass, Height and Gravitational acceleration which gives us a result in joules, not newtons
 
He probably just made a mistake.
 
"I think PE is measured in joules per second anyway"

Sure this mistake was made due to his sheer incopitence then in comes to physics. Not only doesn't Tada know the difference between mass and weight, he also doesn't upderstand the concept of work, power and energy as he just demonstrated. No offence but since he clearly lacks knowledge about mechanics he should plobably stay out of this discussion.

All of his claims have already been debunked by both me and DontTalk so I'm not going to repeat what's already been said.
 
Okay. No problem. This is not my area, and I trust the expertise of you and DontTalkDT. I just don't want to disrespect Tata.
 
@Ugarik

I am not a calc member but I can't just avoid this nonsense you wrote.Are you implying that Tata,the guy that has 24 pages of calculations doesn't know anything?Maybe he was tiered from work or something,people tend to make mistakes sometimes.The first thing you do is accusing him on being ignorant.You said "No offence" but it sounded like you are trying to personally attack him,you can't just right "No offence" and expect everything to be good.Also,I don't think you have the right to decide who participates here and who doesn't.Stop acting like a boss and be more respecetful to your collegues.

I can't believe I had to write this.

But anyway I believe in 24 pages of calculations or are you implying he did all the calcs without knowing anything?I think not.
 
Look, Ugarik is genuinely most likely one of our most skilled calculators. I obviously agree that we should try to be respectful to each other here, but let's try to not make this any worse and stay on topic please.
 
I've been avoiding posting the new calc for the Chibaku Tensei to wait and see what the result of this discussion is. From what I can tell, the conclusions so far for the Chibaku Tensei calcs is:

1) Use the size scaling method that results in approximately 10 km crater width which is necessary for the speed portion of the CT calc.

2) Avoid using the potential energy to try and calculate the AP of the Chibaku Tensei.

Unless any other Calc Group Members has some input.
 
So, I stay by the fact that holding something still in air inherently takes no energy/work, only force/lifting strength.

But I think I think I should comment on this

Ugarik said:
It SHOULD be a lifting strength feat only (or at least that's what I'm trying to prove)

But still the technique had its 6-B rating entirely because of the position of that ball in relation to ground level and many people, including some calc group members, agree with Country level AP from keeping the ball in the air. That's why I asked for your input.
Click to expand...
We are talking about a bunch of rocks being lifted from the ground to a certain height. Holding them at that height indeed needs no work/energy, but getting them to that height does. (Precisely it needs the application of a force greater than the downwards force of gravity over the distance they are lifted, which is work equalling the change in PE)

Since the debate here got somewhat heated I bothered checking out the manga chapter with the chibaku tensei (chapter 439, in case anyone else wants to look) and I think the formation of the ball is sufficiently quickly that we don't have to bother with time constraints or in other words consider it one quick attack. (Of course technically one can put a time to it, just as it is with heat, bullet deacceleration, KE acceleration and basically everything. Just that for short attacks we usually neglect it)

So fundamentally I'm fine with a PE calc.

Great, now I'm essentially telling all parties they're wrong
 
I did say in my first response that it was a methanical work feat and gave an explanation why we can't rate one's power based on the ammount of work they can generate. But since it happened rather quickly and calculating KE can be difficult I can agree with this
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Btw, what's the status on the TBB calcs?
Click to expand...
Therefir posted a summary up above for most of them.

I'm currently working on something that will clarify one of the feats.
 
So which of Damage's calculations have been accepted to be applied so far?
 
Antvasima said:
So which of Damage's calculations have been accepted to be applied so far?
Click to expand...
The first four out of the seven in the OP have been accepted (though only two of them were made by me).

For calcs 5 and 6, Therefir supports using my versions over the alternatives. I want to get at least another calc group member's opinion though.

For calc 7, TataHakai has told me that is neutral about it right now. I need to update my calc to show a 2nd method for it that will hopefully get that one settled too.

All in all, we're close to being done. Once we have a consensus on the last three calcs, I'll begin a CRT for replacing the calcs and seeing if any ratings need changing.
 
Okay. That seems good then.
 
I'm sorry to butt in (and this would be the only time) but for calc 5 and 6, Rocker's calc has been accepted and M3X's calc was accepted before another combined BB calc was made

Sorry once you guys read this then please delete this comment
 
@BlackeJan, if you have any comments or concerns please feel free to leave them on my message wall.
 
I already left a reply about the calcs 5 and 6 in the 145 of this thread, so I will just leave here the stuff about the 7th.

The new method used by Damage3245 is more accurated, as all other three calcs have the same problem, the angle of the panel where is used the height of the Hokage mountain. This is a problem that happened in this feat: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SquiTwo/Supercollider_goes_boom_boom_(Revision

And was fixed later: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._explosion_(Spider-Man:_Into_the_Spider-Verse

In this case the whole lenght of the bridge cannot be used to get how wide is the explosion, as it's inaccurated because of the angle.

This same thing can be tested by ourself with our hand; just put one completely horizontal, above a surface without an angle while the other hand must be like Hokage monument, with an angle and stuff. Using the whole lenght of the angle'd hand cannot be used to get the size of the other one, as even when they both are around the same size, the angle of one won't give us an accurated result of the other. It would be better to get the width of the angle hand to use it to pixelscale if it's close enough for it to work, as even with the angle the width wouldn't change.

So, unless someone proves with math, arcs and stuff that the angle of the mountain is good enough for it to give us an accurated results, the height shouldn't be used.

That being said, I will refrain myself in commenting if the calc itself can be usable or not, because with this tablet I have too much problems to see the small lines of its pixelscaling. And if there are another instances where this feat can be calculated without the problem of the mountain, then those moments should be looked at as well.
 
I already told damage i'm neutral on whether to use his or M3X's on the kn6 bijudama first method as both are technically correct

However the second method is literally nonsense, the blue line is picked out of nowhere since we can't even distuingish the pillars from that far away, not to mention the depth of the crater and the wall are hundreds to potentially thousands of meters away which massively inflates the actual size of it
 
Thank you for helping out.
 
@TataHakai; the second method counts the number of columns in the wall that Omoi is on and contrasts it to the number of columns on the wall on the far side.

As for the distance to the crater and wall, I don't think that would have an effect on the scaling, would it?

All we need is the height of the wall, and we can estimate the depth of the crater from that.

There is a another method that would get the height of the wall from the height of the gates to Konoha, but that would require more scaling images and be less likely to be accurate.
 
Damage3245 said:
@TataHakai; the second method counts the number of columns in the wall that Omoi is on and contrasts it to the number of columns on the wall on the far side.
As for the distance to the crater and wall, I don't think that would have an effect on the scaling, would it?

All we need is the height of the wall, and we can estimate the depth of the crater from that.

There is a another method that would get the height of the wall from the height of the gates to Konoha, but that would require more scaling images and be less likely to be accurate.
Click to expand...
Firstly, again, you can't "see" the number of columns on the far side nor can you individually distinguish them from that distance because of the low amount of quality due to distance

Secondly Damage, put your hand in front of your face, and put your other hand as far away as you can, which hand looks bigger? This is the problem with trying to scale things that are very far away from one another

Go outside and put your hand in front of your face then look at the sun, your hand isn't suddenly 1.3 million kilometers in length
 
@Tata, we can see numerous vertical lines in the opposite wall though, are they not the columns?

Here is another shot of the wall, we can clearly see individual columns on the wall. Here is another supporting shot.

And regarding your analogy, how exactly does that apply here? The walls of Konoha and the Shinra Tensei crater do not appear far away from each other.

Would you prefer it if either of the pages I linked above were used for the scaling?
 
orrr they're the stripes on the walls which are far closer in colour to the "numerous vertical lines in the opposite wall"
Damage
And even if we do assume you're right you literally cannot distingusish them from one another because of the distance

"And regarding your analogy, how exactly does that apply here? The walls of Konoha and the Shinra Tensei crater do not appear extremely far away from each other."

Except for the rubbles from potentially dozens to hundreds of house worth between them two PLUS extra space, that's far too much distance to be able to accurately convey size without the issue of perspective
 
@Tata; taking this page as an example, are you quite sure that we cannot distinguish the columns from each other? Because I can see them clearly.

As for the rubble presenting a problem, you're going to have to demonstrate that it adds too much distance between the walls and the crater for it to be unusable because right now it seems too speculative, unless you can prove that the walls are too far away to be used for scaling.
 
Dude it doesn't matter if it's TOO much or TOO little distance, even a few meters can make dozens of meters of difference in size when you're scaling from a few pixels

If you don't understand the object image height and distance relationship then i'm not sure what to tell you besides read up on it and understand that we don't accept scaling like that

In fact you literally used the same argument to debunk the Gyuki size (because the tailed beast they were scaling from was much further in the background than Gyuki) so why is it so hard for you accept now?

Plus i'm going to need you to point out where exactly the columns are on that scan because i can't tell at all
 
@TataHakai; I'm just trying to find what the best solution to this will be.

Because according to Alex all three of the current calcs that rely on the Hokage mountain are flawed, and according to you the version of the calc that uses the crater depth is flawed.

Currently it is looking like we'll need to reject all three calcs if there's no consensus, so we should probably try to find a new method of calcing that feat.
 
@TataHakai, could you ask Alex for a more detailed explanation then?

Also, I'm think I've found a new method that could resolve both M3X's version of the scaling, and my own. I'll post it here tomorrow after I've verified it.
 
If the cgms think that the angle of the panel of the mountain respecting the TBB and can prove that Indeed doesn't inflate the result then it would be fine.

But multiple panels before the one used shows that using a calculated height for the mountain before Konoha received the ST is wrong as in those panels we can see that below the mountain there are only remainings of buildings in the crater and not a limit of where Konoha used to be like around the wall of the village, the real result would be higher than that.

While on the this, what proves that the TBB left a perfect half sphere crater behind it when all we can see is an explosion while there is a possibility of assuming 1/4 of the diameter for how deep it went and not get inflated calcs? This 1/4 thing have been accepted in this wiki before you say something.
 
@Alex, I have updated my version of the calc with different methods, two of which are not dependant on the cliff height.

As for the volume of destruction, I'm open towards calcing that by a different method.
 
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