Naruto Calcs (Calc Group members only)

[Ugarik]

@Damage3245 I said both are wrong

 

[Damage3245]

Ah yes, I meant that you found my version of the size scaling preferable - I forgot to mention that you disagree with both calcs being applicable.

 

[Therefir]

So about the Biju bombs, RinkakuKagune's version is outright wrong because it assumes the maximum height that a cumulus cloud can reach in temperate latitudes for no reason whatsoever.

I prefer Damage's version over Rocker's because the scaling is more clearer using Gyuki's head instead of Matatabi's eye. Also, Matatabi is farther away from the field of view than Gyuki's body, which ends up inflating the scaling.

 

[Therefir]

Now with the combined Biju bomb, the whole premise of DodoNova2's version is based on the lie that the average mountain in Japan is 3,000 meters, when there are only 21 mountains of that size, compared to the more than 89 mountains of less than 1,000 meters that exist in that country, and the way he calculated the depth of the crater doesn't make much sense either. Plus he is using the spherical cap formula instead of the half-ellipsoid formula, and with the other problems that Gallavant mentionated.

MX3's version is almost the same thing, but instead of pulverization he assumes vaporization based on what other Biju bombs have done. However, this is also incorrect considering that some of the Biju bombs have only managed to pulverize the ground, so using vaporization or pulverization should depend on each particular case.

In Damage's version unlike the others, he actually measures the crater instead of the explosion, and without having to assume the height of a mountain, not to mention that uses the correct formula. So for all these reasons and more I prefer his version.

 

[M3X_2.0]

MX3's version is almost the same thing, but instead of pulverization he assumes vaporization based on what other Biju bombs have done. However, this is also incorrect considering that some of the Biju bombs have only managed to pulverize the ground, so using vaporization or pulverization should depend on each particular case.

I have Kep's permission to comment here.

My calculation is based on the size of the mountain, yes, but even hills in Naruto are more than 3000 meters high, as Kep calculated here. And we see that all the surrounding mountains are much smaller. Damage's calc is based on the size of the Biju, which in addition to not having an official size, are always represented as huge beings, in several scenes they seem colossal in size. Using some scenes, the size can range from 40 to even 400 meters tall, which is inconsistent. The use of the pulverization is also wrong, the dust it shows in the calculation was caused by the Jubi scenes after the Biju Dama. I did a blog where I showed some cases of Biju Dama vaporizing where it explodes. There is no scene of it pulverizating something. Using 3000 meters for mountain is not a higball, but a huge lowball.

His version is also contradictory. The combined Biju Dama crater is larger than the Tenppechi crater, as you can see here. This crater can be seen in planetary shots like this, this, this one. You can even see this crater from a thousand of km away, the Shinju was in the Frost Country and Naruto and Sasuke were in the Valey of The End (The Frost Country is Shimogakure). To support my version, in addition to mentioning the hill that Nagato was more than 3000 meters high and still smaller than the mountains, the Uchiha's hideout is 1200 meters in size and yet it is still small hills, which, if I am not mistaken, are artificial. And they can even reach up to 2000 meters high.

His calculation also contradicts this calculation here. See this panel, here we can see the crater of the five Biju Dama and also the crater we are discussing now. The problem is that one depends directly on the size of the other. If we use an accepted value for the size of the five craters, it should be used to find the size of the largest crater, the opposite is also true. If we use an accepted size for the larger one, it should be used to find the size of the five smaller ones. And if we scale the crater Gyuki made to the 5 explosions, it would lead different values. My pixelscaling from the 5 craters using the panel I linked above gaves me 15px for the crater, wich is 1160 meters from each crater, and the craters are 3137 meters. So, this calculations about the crater size and stuff should be calced using a one base size for every crater.

Rocker said he will fix his calc and would appreciate your evaluation when it is finished, @Therefir.

 

[Antvasima]

Big thanks to everybody in the calc group who are helping out here.

 

[Damage3245]

• Biju size is inconsistent in the manga, that is true. To minimize this I primarily used scaling from within the same chapter. So even if Gyuki is larger or smaller in other scenes, it shouldn't be relevant.

• Some Biju Bombs show signs of vaporization. Others do not. They should be taken on a case-by-case basis.
  • Even if we do accepted this, all it would require is a small adjustment to the calc.

• The Tenpenchii crater being smaller could be down to the calcs being wrong; or it could be down to Kishimoto's own inconsistency.

• There was a thread recently about 'planetary shots' like those and how they don't represent true curvature. They cannot be used to refute a smaller size found for the crater or the Shinju.

• Simple answer is that the Valley of the End isn't a thousand kilometers away from the Shinju. That needs more evidence than an assertion.

• The Uchiha Hideout was re-calced by myself to be about 600 meters in height, so there is no inconsistency there.

• Nagato's hideout and the mountains around it are irrelevant to the current discussion. Mountains vary in height. Even if a mountain in one part of the Naruto world was calculated to be huge, others can be calculated to be small. Bringing up random other mountains won't help determine the size the Biju Bomb crater.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is the consensus so far among the calc group members regarding which calculations that seem most reliable to use?

 

[Damage3245]

Recap on the remaining calcs:

• Nagato's Calc:
  • Crimson Azathoth approves my version.
  • Tata approves of Kep's version.
  • Kep disapproves of my version, but states that his own version needs re-calcing.

• Biju Bomb Calc:
  • Therefir approves of my version.
  • Tata approves of Rocker's version.

• Combined Biju Bomb Calc
  • Therefir approves of my version.

Unfortunately there hasn't been a lot of responses.

Therefir's breakdown gives legitimate reasons for why my version should be used for the Biju Bomb calcs, which will create a more consistent powerscaling for the verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm, this is a problem then. Perhaps you can ask Antoniofer, DontTalkDT, Ugarik, Executor N0, and the other remaining calc group members to provide input here again. As usual, you can tell them that I would appreciate their help.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, the more analytical calc group input the better in this case.

 

[Antvasima]

So, is somebody willing to remind all of our calc group members, along with DontTalkDT and Antoniofer, that this is an important thread to evaluate?

 

[Damage3245]

So, is somebody willing to remind all of our calc group members, along with DontTalkDT and Antoniofer, that this is an important thread to evaluate?

I reminded those two yesterday and asked a couple others but I don't think most people want to get involved with HST disputes.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Mindovin. We strictly need their help with comparing the calculations themselves, and if they wish, I can remove all non-staff replies from this thread.

 

[Damage3245]

@Antvasima. Unless they're stated that they've recieved permission like only M3X has done, I think the non-staff replies can be removed.

I suggest we wait a couple of days to see if any staff members disagree with Therefir's assessment of the calcs. I also have some additional evidence suggesting my version of the size scaling on the Biju Bombs calc is better for use than the alternatives.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will remove them.

I also asked DontTalkDT to help out here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, I know I will not be able to finish this debate this week, but might as well start taking a look if it goes nowhere otherwise.

Let's start with calc 4:

Before a get into thinking which of the calcs is best, I have a question. Couldn't we also scale that from the trees in this or is that a worse idea than the assumptions we have?

 

[Damage3245]

If we knew what type of trees they were, then that would be theoretically possible.

There are three things on that panel that could each be used to estimate the size:

• The surrounding mountains.

• The forest / trees.

• The clouds.

Currently my version of the calc only estimates the size of the mountains.

EDIT: By pixelscaling the trees on the left side of the crater and assuming them to be equal to the tallest tree in the world (at 115.7 m tall) I get the width of the crater to be 5623.02 m.

 

[DontTalkDT]

You use 609m due to them being mountains, right?

Kepekley refers to them as hills in his calc, so are they even officially mountains?

Clouds are likely a bad idea, as they vary a lot.


One could probably make guesses on the tree type based on looks or maybe scale a few of them if there are panels...

(Makes me think of this...)

 

[Damage3245]

Well, they aren't officially called mountains at any point I believe. But 609 meters seemed like a safe bet for them since they look like either big hills, or small mountains.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Thank you for helping out.

 

[The_Causality]

Since i'am something that should be called Fake Calc members I guess I can give my opinion about the calcs

Well, Kep's Calc made the fault that he scaled the tiny hill in the full chibaku tensei Calc, he calced the size of the mountain which scale to all the other mountain in the area, so IMO, the recalc of this Calc need to use the mountains (as Damage used) with the size Kep calced (at least 3.000 meters the mountains as Tata and Kep pointed in this thread)

 

[Damage3245]

The panel being used to get the height of Nagato's hill doesn't have enough detail on it to actually scale the full height of the tree to the rest of the hill.

It also looks like Rocker is trying to scale a mountain that is further in the background to the hill as if they are right next to each other.

 

[The_Causality]

@ Damage I mean, yes. We can totally see both the mountain and the tree, it's a pretty basic pixel scaling

 

[Damage3245]

My point is that the image of the full hill doesn't show the individual tree itself. At best you can see the top of the tree which sticks out from above the rest of the treeline.

A quick estimate of this would go like this:

Image 1.

Konan Height = 85 px = 1.694 m

Tree Base = 886 px = 17.6574588236 m

Image 2.

Tree Base = 39 px = 17.6574588236 m

Tree Top = 123 px = 55.6889085976 m

Image 3.

Tree Top = 10 px = 55.6889085976 m

Hill Height = 171 px = 952.280337019 m

 

[DontTalkDT]

To make a small sanity check, I scaled a tree using Kep's scaling as basis.


Some random tree at the side is 38px tall, compared to the CT diameter that is 605 px.


If the CT is 61810.9355m wide than that tree is 3.8 km tall.

If the CT is 28186.32m wide that tree is 1.770 km tall.

If the CT is 6324.23m wide that tree is 397.22 m tall.


Not sure what to make of that yet, but I'm just going to put it here to see what others make of it.

 

[TataHakai]

To make a small sanity check, I scaled a tree using Kep's scaling as basis.

Some random tree at the side is 38px tall, compared to the CT diameter that is 605 px.


If the CT is 61810.9355m wide than that tree is 3.8 km tall.

If the CT is 28186.32m wide that tree is 1.770 km tall.

That's not a tree

 

[DontTalkDT]

well for 1 you are scaling a forest section not just a tree, kishimoto tends to draw entire forests as just a massive section of shrubbery when seen at long ranges.
also a lot of trees are on hills that is another thing being missed here.

If you look closely you will see that the tree I picked is distinguished from the rest and we can see the ground where it ends. So it shouldn't be smaller than the scaling suggests.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That's not a tree

What else would it be? Looks a lot like a tree to me...

 

[TataHakai]

That's not a tree

What else would it be? Looks a lot like a tree to me...

It's clearly a collection of trees, we can't even see the trees themselves as that's just the top parts that are close enough together to look like a pretty huge bush

 

[TataHakai]

This is literally the angle we have of those trees

 

[The_Causality]

My point is that the image of the full hill doesn't show the individual tree itself. At best you can see the top of the tree which sticks out from above the rest of the treeline.

I mean, you can just make this as Kep, use a reasonable scaling for the whole tree size, or if you are really doubtfull, you can just scale the tree in the whole mountain shot to a reasonable way, like the tree to the guessed ground, in your case, your method isn't really viable, your pixel sizing is too small to distinguish something, it can't be precise for both what you calc and the pixel itself.

 

[Damage3245]

I'd like to note that this part of my scaling really makes it clear that the size used on Kep's and Rocker's version to get the width of the tree being just over 7 meters is really wrong seeing as there is a large room in there for both Nagato and Konan to fit in comfortably:

Image 1.

Konan Height = 85 px = 1.694 m

Tree Base = 886 px = 17.6574588236 m

By estimate puts it at about 17 meters, not 7 meters.

 

[The_Causality]

Well, i'll just give "my version"

• Tree radius = 9.13 meters, Diameters is 18.26
• Tree Diameter = 106.5 meters
• Mountain = 3046.18 m

So, Using Damage's scaling to the Mountai, the Size of the CT is 15.725 meters

For reference, Kep one was 61.810 meters

 

[DontTalkDT]

This is literally the angle we have of those trees

And if I scaled one of those tree tops the entire tree would be taller than the thing I scaled...

I mean, alternatively look at the trees on the front edge. Whether groups of trees or not, any distance these are visually past the edge of the crater has to be via height.

 

[TataHakai]

This is literally the angle we have of those trees

And if I scaled one of those tree tops the entire tree would be taller than the thing I scaled...
I mean, alternatively look at the trees on the front edge. Whether groups of trees or not, any distance these are visually past the edge of the crater has to be via height.

Yeah but the problem is that Kishi has a lot less detail than an actual picture, so what you're looking at in the manga panel is drawn more like one big bush than individual trees stacked together despite that being what they are

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHakai; even if the trees were stacked together, if you look at the top of the stack and look to where it meets the ground, you should be able to estimate the height of the tallest tree, no?

On the left side of the crater you can see the top of the 'stack' and you can see where the 'stack' meets the ground at the edge of the crater.

 

[Rocker1189]

The tree are on hills and mountains which is why they seem so big when stacked together(this is obvious when you look at the hill that Kep originally used, on the left side of that panel it is not just trees, those are hills that have been broken up by CT. You can tell because at the edges of forests they cut down into much much smaller trees.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; the official colouring of that page definitely does not show them as just being hills.

Is they were the sheer side of a hill that had been gouged away by the Chibaku Tensei, then they would be the same colour as the rest of the rock around the crater.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Imgur sometimes has issues with direct image linking. This link should work.