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Naruto/Boruto General Dattebayo Discussion Thread #46

Adult Naruto vs War Arc Naruto

A lot of you are claiming Adult Naruto is far stronger than War Arc Naruto and this is FAR from the truth. In the War Arc, Naruto has:

  • (1)50% Kurama
  • (2)Fragments of Biju 1-8 Chakra
  • (3)50% Hagoromo's Chakra
The only difference between Adult Naruto and War Arc Naruto isvthat at the end of the War Arc, he gain's 100% Kurama.

Adult Naruto has:

  • (1)100% Kurama
  • (2)Fragments of Biju 1-8 Chakra
  • (3)50% Hagoromo's Chakra
Hagoromo's Chakra is far stronger than 100% Kurama thus, gaining 100% Kurama only ammounts to a minimal Increase, which is honestly Irrelevant. Nothing worthy oc claiming Naruto went from 200zt to 400zt. This is extremely baseless. Nothing across "The Last"/"Blank Period Novels" and Boruto prove this.

The only thing you all who're pushing this has to cling to as any valid "proof" is Sasuke's statement about Momoshiki:

0005-009
The issue is, your logic is skewed here. You contend that, "Momoshiki > Kaguya because he freightend her."
You completely forget that you do not have to stronger than someone to freighten them.

I'll give 2 examples to drive this point home:

  • (Naruto)Hashirama, despite being Vastly "stronger" than Itachi and Shisui, has cause to fear them, even to an extent due to their Genjutsu Alone.
  • (IRL)America, despite being vastly superior to North Korea in Military Might, has reason to be weary of battling them, in the event they do have a few nukes, even if said Nukes don't have have the ability to travel across the Ocean.
Thus, it is more than plausible that Kaguya could be frileightened by someone weaker than her.

Momoshiki's bread and butter is absorbing/redirecting and retaining abilities he's absorbed. We've seen how both he and Kaguya fights. Her entire Arsenal can almost be used against her or is ineffective agaisnt Momoshiki and he stands to get stronger from absorbing her chakra, no matter how strong she is.

Just like Naruto having to be weary against Delta due to her Chakra Absorbing and Durability Negating Beams, despite the fact he's clearly the better combatant and his Ninjutsu can destroy her body easily.

No reason is given for Momoshiki freightening Kaguya. Even then, you have to consider the factors at play, which none of you are doing.

  • Kaguya may have been weaker than Momoshiki 1000 years before her revival when she first came to Earth.
  • Naruto and Sasuke are stronger than Prime Kaguya as Prime Kaguya is only 100% Juubi. JJ Madara v1 (Vs Gai) is already comparable to Prime Kaguya as he's only missing one half of Kurama, to which his own power in Base + SM w/ 1 Rinne is stronger than BM Naruto.
  • Naruto alone is comparable to Full Power Madara who is undoubtedly stronger than Prime Kaguya who is simply 100% Juubi and Adult Naruto is only Maglrginally stronger than War Arc Naruto.
Momoshiki ~ Adult Naruto (Marginally) > War Arc Naruto ~ RinneSharingan Madara > Shinju Madara > JJ v1 Madara >= Prime Kaguya.

So yes, Prime Kaguya definitely had reason to fear Momoshiki and then she was sealed for 1000 years. She doesn't know how strong Momoshiki had gotten in 1000 years, so why wouldn't be freightened at his potential arrival when he is, through feats, stronger than she was 1000 years prior.

All in all, no. There is no good reason for Momoshiki, Naruto or Sasuke to scale to 400zt.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
The only thing you all who're pushing this has to cling to as any valid "proof" is Sasuke's statement about Momoshiki:

0005-009
The issue is, your logic is skewed here. You contend that, "Momoshiki > Kaguya because he freightend her."
You completely forget that you do not have to stronger than someone to freighten them.
Click to expand...
Except other mediums such as the Anime, Novels and Movie pretty much outright debunk the notion that Kaguya was merely "scared" of them

We have literal statements calling Momoshiki and Kinshiki stronger than Kaguya and that she couldn't defeat them with a zetsu army

Not sure why this is still a debate in 2019
 
Btw, we shouldn't take Hagoromo's statement of Kaguya being stronger than him as serious or it's retconned.

  • Prime Kaguya = 100% Juubi.
  • This Madara (Base + SM + 1 Rinnegan + Biju 1-8 + 50% Kurama) is in the same ballpark as Prime Kaguya (100%Juubi) and should be stronger as his own power is greater than BM Naruto through Feats).
  • War Arc Naruto is Comparable to RinneSharingan Madara
  • Rinnegan Sasuke and SPSM Naruto ~ Hagoromo
So....I think we should let feats speak for themselves rather than the statements. It's no different than with Bleach statements vs Feats. Fair is fair.
 
TataHakai said:
TheFinalOrder said:
The only thing you all who're pushing this has to cling to as any valid "proof" is Sasuke's statement about Momoshiki:

0005-009
The issue is, your logic is skewed here. You contend that, "Momoshiki > Kaguya because he freightend her."
You completely forget that you do not have to stronger than someone to freighten them.
Click to expand...
Except other mediums such as the Anime, Novels and Movie pretty much outright debunk the notion that Kaguya was merely "scared" of them

We have literal statements calling Momoshiki and Kinshiki stronger than Kaguya and that she couldn't defeat them with a zetsu army

Not sure why this is still a debate in 2019
Click to expand...
  • Movie States no such thing
  • Anime statement is contradicted
  • Novel isn't canon.
It's still a debate because it's simply pushing false information.
 
War Arc Naruto is comparable to RinneSharingan Madara only when it comes to physical strength. Madara is stronger in any other way.
 
Momoshiki ~ Adult Naruto (Marginally) > War Arc Naruto ~ RinneSharingan Madara > Shinju Madara > JJ v1 Madara >= Prime Kaguya.

I don't get that part.How is Kaguya weaker than Naruto and Madara?
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Btw, we shouldn't take Hagoromo's statement of Kaguya being stronger than him as serious or it's retconned.
  • This Madara (Base + SM + 1 Rinnegan + Biju 1-8 + 50% Kurama) is in the same ballpark as Prime Kaguya (100%Juubi) and should be stronger as his own power is greater than BM Naruto through Feats).
Click to expand...
Except No

Madarasasa
And i'm not even going to adress "feats over statements" when Kaguya factually has far superior feats to Juudara
 
TheFinalOrder said:
TataHakai said:
TheFinalOrder said:
The only thing you all who're pushing this has to cling to as any valid "proof" is Sasuke's statement about Momoshiki:

0005-009
The issue is, your logic is skewed here. You contend that, "Momoshiki > Kaguya because he freightend her."
You completely forget that you do not have to stronger than someone to freighten them.
Click to expand...
Except other mediums such as the Anime, Novels and Movie pretty much outright debunk the notion that Kaguya was merely "scared" of them
We have literal statements calling Momoshiki and Kinshiki stronger than Kaguya and that she couldn't defeat them with a zetsu army

Not sure why this is still a debate in 2019
Click to expand...
  • Movie States no such thing
  • Anime statement is contradicted
  • Novel isn't canon.
It's still a debate because it's simply pushing false information.
Click to expand...
How in gods name is anime statement contradicted? Lmfao i really want to hear this one

And the novel was written by Kodachi, who writes both the current Anime and Manga for Boruto

No, it shouldn't be a debate when the series has to repeat it over like 4 mediums that Momo and Kin are superior in every way
 
looking over dozens of Mediums and reading the subtext and it all coming to the same conclusion , it's not hard to use Objective Correlation in this instance, it doesn't fundamentally matter if it's canon or not because with this large amount of Information we can come to a consensus as to what the Intention of the piece is, which is far more valuable than our own perspective.

and it's for that reason why I will stand by Momoshiki>Kaguya
 
Speaking of "What's Canon", the Boruto Canon is a mess, but it's incredibly simple:

Main Boruto Cano

  • Academy Arcs (Nue Arc - Graduation)
  • Chocho Arc
  • Boruto Manga
These are main canon for 3 reasons: (1)Kishimoto said the Manga is the official Continuation of Naruto. (2)Kodachi said the Academy Arcs are telling the Story of Boruto's Academy Days and referenced it in the Manga and via his own statements. (3)Chocho Arc was Kishimoto's conception and he even delivered dialogue.

Boruto Supporting Cano

  • Boruto Anime (Everything other than Academy Arcs / Chocho Arcs)
  • Boruto Movie
These are Supporting Canon for 3 reasons, (1)Kodachi Supervises the Writting Staff, Approves of all Scripts, making sure Characterization and Portrayal is accurate. (2)Kishimoto wrote the Movie with Kodachi and heavily supervised its production. It's portrayal and Characterization of characters is directly from. (3)Kishimoto himself has some level of supervision over the Anime, but to what extent is unknown.

The Boruto Novel(s) aren't canon. The movie novel is especially contradictory and highly unreliable.
 
TataHakai said:
TheFinalOrder said:
Btw, we shouldn't take Hagoromo's statement of Kaguya being stronger than him as serious or it's retconned.
  • This Madara (Base + SM + 1 Rinnegan + Biju 1-8 + 50% Kurama) is in the same ballpark as Prime Kaguya (100%Juubi) and should be stronger as his own power is greater than BM Naruto through Feats).
Click to expand...
Except No
Madarasasa
And i'm not even going to adress "feats over statements" when Kaguya factually has far superior feats to Juudara
Click to expand...
You're deliberately ignoring the part where she just absorbed chakra far stronger than the juubi had from IT before Sasuke made that statement?

Scan of statement

Nope. What I said still stands.
 
@Tatahakai

Post a screenshot of the Anime stating Momo and Kinshiki are superior? I'll wait. If it's from the Gaiden arc in the Anime, it's automatically dismissable. Gaiden's adaptation is no different than Naruto's anime proper. It's not canon in any sense and even retcons the Manga, which is by Kinshimoto, whom takes priority in all instances.
 
But it's not only Momoshiki. Kinshiki and even Urashiki are included. And when they were all shown, their feats don't just match up. The closest is Momokinshiki. Okay, but look. Our friend here had his ninjutsu destroyed by Sasuke's Kusanagi without even lightning chakra, can't overpower Kurama Avatar from a weakened Naruto without his golem, and Kinshiki can't even beat a Sasuke without ninjutsu on his own. Is anyone going to tell me that a standard punch from Adult Naruto and a slash from Adult Sasuke's Kusanagi will completely destroy Perfect Susanoo and Kurama Avatar from the war? Lol? That's the logic I'm seeing here. Because Sasuke's Kusanagi > Momokinshiki's ninjutsu > Kaguya >>> Perfect Susanoo ~ Kurama Avatar, right? Please compare the feats. Some of these things sound flat out absurd when you really think of it.

Pre Rinnegan Urashiki is self explanatory. His feats don't even come close.

These things are why I insist that Momoshiki is not stronger than Kaguya. They're comparable at most. Hell, this guy at his strongest was killed by a boosted Rasengan from a weakened Naruto while Kaguya tanked Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken with minor injuries. There's little comparison to be made, again.

I'll accept Momoshiki being stronger than Kaguya when I see an undeniable statement that Adult Naruto is waaaay stronger than Teen Naruto, which would in turn make Adult NaruSasu waaaay stronger than Madara and Hagoromo. So I'd disagree with that sentiment for now.
 
You mean Shueisha and Kishimoto

But Shueisha more so as they could pull a Konami to Kishimoto if they wished to do so.
 
Oh, and you guys are claiming it's stated in multiple mediums, but you still have yet to post proof.

  • No statement made in the movie iirc.
  • Anime Statement is faulty and contradictory and attempts to retcon Kishimoto in an adaptation of his Manga. That Gaiden Arc is no different than Itachi Shiden, in the Naruto Anime, which doesn't acvurate follow the Novel at all.
  • The Movie Novel is unreliable and contradictory
  • The Anime Novels are not canon
  • Nothing in the "Main Canon" supports this notion you guys are pushing.
I'm sorry, but without proof, this is blantantly arbitrary.
 
Its sure easy to believe Momoshiki > Kaguya when he has much better feats than her... oh wait?

I never subscribed to that notion when Naruto and Sasuke easily beat him while weakened. There's only one statement that doesn't even say he's stronger, just that Kaguya was scared of them. The feats then don't support the assumption and when feats contradict the statement, there's no reason to take the statement (which doesn't matter here since the statement doesn't even say Momoshiki is stronger).
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
you realize if the Boruto novels are canon to the anime they become supporting Boruto Canon by virtue of being canon to the anime which in itself is supporting cano
Click to expand...
Nope. The novels are written by third parties with no involvement from Kishimoto or Kodachi and retcon the Anime.
 
Read the paragraph again

also if Shueisha states them to be canon then they are

I'm unsure if Shueisha has made that statement however

which is why

the Word IF is used
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Oh, and you guys are claiming it's stated in multiple mediums, but you still have yet to post proof.
  • No statement made in the movie iirc.
  • Anime Statement is faulty and contradictory and attempts to retcon Kishimoto in an adaptation of his Manga. That Gaiden Arc is no different than Itachi Shiden, in the Naruto Anime, which doesn't acvurate follow the Novel at all.
  • The Movie Novel is unreliable and contradictory
  • The Anime Novels are not canon
  • Nothing in the "Main Canon" supports this notion you guys are pushing.
I'm sorry, but without proof, this is blantantly arbitrary.
Click to expand...
ill post them in a blog, also read my earlier post in regards to canon

you say something is faulty and contradictory but show no examples
 
Shadowbokunohero said:
Read the paragraph again
also if Shueisha states them to be canon then they are

I'm unsure if Shueisha has made that statement however

which is why

the Word IF is used
Click to expand...
Nope. Shueisha needs Kishimoto and Kodachi's approval to claim them as canon. No such thing was stated about it though. It's only an adaptation of the Anime in novel form. And again...they retcon the Anime here and there.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
The feats then don't support the assumption and when feats contradict the statement, there's no reason to take the statement
Click to expand...
You realize thats a huge generlization and can be applied to every series and you would end up with huge amounts of problems, it's a flawed way of thinking, which is why context matters
 
the problem comes from the fact that the author and co dont care about consistent powerscaling XD, only we do
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Shadowbokunohero said:
Read the paragraph again
also if Shueisha states them to be canon then they are

I'm unsure if Shueisha has made that statement however

which is why

the Word IF is used
Click to expand...
Nope. Shueisha needs Kishimoto and Kodachi's approval to claim them as canon. No such thing was stated about it though. It's only an adaptation of the Anime in novel form. And again...they retcon the Anime here and there.
Click to expand...
They Objectively Dont, Shueisha OBJECTIVELY has more power than Kishimoto, but regardless if Shueisha said nothing then there's nothing to discuss
 
ill adress those in the blog, but they dont debunk anything as there are just as easily counter examples, the only difference is you're choosing to focus on the Anti feats
 
As for me, I have this burned out feeling. I think I'll stay away from further controversial discussions / revisions like this. It usually works out for me but sometimes the urge to reply is too much to contain.
 
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