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Naruto/Boruto Discussion Rule (Staff Only)

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KingTempest

KingTempest

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Brought up here. STAFF ONLY unless permission is granted please.
I give @M3X permission to speak since he was the one that brought the idea up.

There should be a discussion rule against Momoshiki scaling above Kaguya based on Sasuke's statement.

This needs to be inputted ASAP, since this is something that has frequently been stated for too long.

Self explanatory.

The Issue​

The statement here and here of someone being more/frightening to/than Kaguya is taken to mean that Momoshiki and Kinshiki, which is false.

Issue #1, Sasuke's Headcanon​

Sasuke had no basis on it. Sasuke didn't even know who Momoshiki and Kinshiki were when he said that.
Sasuke said his statement in a flashback in the Gaiden Manga on Chapter 5 (Episode 24), found the scroll in a flashback in Boruto Chapter 2 (Episode 54), and deciphered the scroll in chapter 5 (Episode 61).

Sasuke didn't know about Momoshiki and Kinshiki when this statement was stated, there were at least 30 episodes worth of distance before Sasuke even met Momo and Kinshiki, so there's no reason to twist it to mean that they scale.

Issue #2, Not Supported​

A famous support is that the scroll Sasuke had that allegedly was talking about Momoshiki and Kinshiki wasn't talking about them being stronger.
It explains their goal on earth on the same page I sent, never says a thing about Kaguya.

Issue #3, Contradicted​

Naruto got rusty over time wasn't in his prime and still manhandled Momoshiki with his hands only.
Naruto with far more abilities and with help couldn't put down Kaguya w/out a seal.
That says enough.

Issue #4, Kaguya Fearing Them​

Being scared of somebody who isn't an AP based fighter isn't AP, and these statements aren't even from Kaguya.
These are headcanon statements from others who don't hold any weight to Kaguya's thoughts via our statements page.

Conclusion​

  • Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya based on Sasuke's statement. It was decided that Sasuke was not referring to those characters during that statement, and we've even had a staff discussion regarding the topic.
Click to expand...
Revised wording would be appreciated.
 
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To copy and paste what I said

The issue with this Kaguya/Momoshiki stuff is because people try to find a relation between them. Kaguya has her own scaling chain in the Shippuden that doesn't correlate with Momoshiki's Boruto scaling.

Kaguya/Madara/Hagoromo/Hamura/Teen Sasuke/Teen Naruto

Momoshiki/Adult Naruto/Adult Sasuke/Kinshiki/Jigen/Isshiki/Delta and maybe Ada and Code.

There are no reliable ways to correlate both chains, people use the "She feared Momo" and "He is a greater threat" arguments but we all know it's bullshit. The only possibles ways are: Direct statements saying Naruto/Sasuke are either stronger or weaker than their Teen versions, Momo being called stronger than her, and most likely the anime showing the Kaguya and Isshiki past.

I agree with everything here, since I am the one who proposed this in the first place. I think you can change the explanation part from "It was decided that Sasuke was not referring to those characters during that statement..." to "It was decided that Sasuke was not a reliable source of information when he made the claim, since he lacked information about their power" and add some stuff about how inconsistent this is with the feats and the fear/threat stuff.
 
This seems fine to me, but it is probably best to write all of your arguments in a blog and link to that embedded into the rule text
 
I was given permission to add this by @KingTempest.

This is pretty much supplementary to what @M3X said, but there shouldn’t be any cross-scaling between the God Tiers of Part II and Boruto. Kaguya and Momoshiki shouldn’t scale to each other in any way, nor should Naruto and Sasuke’s War Arc selves scale to their Boruto selves and vice verse.

Like I said in the thread that sparked this discussion, a much simpler way to do things would be to just scale Kaguya and Momoshiki/Kinshiki above Toneri. That makes them independent of each other and should satisfy everyone since we aren’t saying Momoshiki > Kaguya, but we also aren’t saying Kaguya > Momoshiki.
 
That might be a workable solution, as long as no tiers are changed.
 
Thank you for the input.
 
This is Naruto. Respectfully as possible declining to take part in this one.
 
Okay. That may be fine then. What do the rest of you think?
 
Last thing I’m gonna say, @UchihaSlayer96 requested for me to say this for him:

“I think it's about time we also officially decide on how Momoshiki's Novel feats should be handled. It gets brought up even more often than him scaling to Kaguya, and people usually use the retconned movie novel or mistranslated/out of context quotes to prove he's Universal or whatever. I think we should at least formally declare that the movie novel isn't usable anymore.”
 
  • Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya based on Sasuke's statement. It was decided that Sasuke was not a reliable source of information regarding Momoshiki and Kinshiki's powers, since he never faced both until some chapters later. It's also conclued that the statements of "greater threat" and Kaguya fearing them are not enough to make Momoshiki stronger than her, considering the context of her past, and the power ups she got during the 1000 years she was on Earth, and she fearing three Otsutsuki at the same time, and not only one. The feats displayed are also inconsistent with this scaling, since Momoshiki fought and had trouble with SPSM Naruto after having his chakra drained for a long period of time, and Sasuke, who was low on chakra by using portals, while Kaguya fought and easily overpowered both Naruto and Sasuke at peak condition. This topic has been brought several times during a short period of time, and the staff and members are already tired of dealing with this subject.
I think that's enough, just fix some grammar and we good.
 
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M3X said:
  • Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya based on Sasuke's statement. It was decided that Sasuke was not a reliable source of information regarding Momoshiki and Kinshiki's powers, since he never faced both until some chapters later. It's also conclued that the statements of "greater threat" and Kaguya fearing them are not enough to make Momoshiki stronger than her, considering the context of her past, and the power ups she got during the 1000 years she was on Earth, and she fearing three Otsutsuki at the same time, and not only one. The feats displayed are also inconsistent with this scaling, since Momoshiki fought and had trouble with SPSM Naruto after having his chakra drained for a long period of time, and Sasuke, who was low on chakra by using portals, while Kaguya fought and easily overpowered both Naruto and Sasuke.
I think that's enough, just fix some grammar and we good.
Click to expand...
Looks valid
 
It seems fine to me. You need to improve a bit on the grammar and sentence flow though.
 
I agree with this. And the reasoning in the first post seems solid.

However, I would like to point out that I haven't been keeping up with anything Naruto related after I dropped the Boruto manga one volume in.
 
I made some minor revisions of the text structure:

"Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya based on Sasuke's statement. It was decided that Sasuke was not a reliable source of information regarding Momoshiki's and Kinshiki's powers, since he never faced both until some chapters later. It's also concluded that the statements of "greater threat" and Kaguya fearing them are not enough to make Momoshiki stronger than her, considering the context of her past, and the power-ups that she received during the 1000 years she was on Earth. She also feared three Otsutsuki at the same time, and not only one. The feats displayed are also inconsistent with this scaling, since Momoshiki fought and had trouble with SPSM Naruto after having his chakra drained for a long period of time, and Sasuke, who was low on chakra by using portals, while Kaguya fought and easily overpowered both Naruto and Sasuke at peak condition. This topic has been brought several times during a brief period of time, and the staff and regular members are tired of dealing with the subject."

Is this fine to apply now?

Also, thank you to all staff members who helped out to evaluate this.
 
Antvasima said:
I made some minor revisions of the text structure:

"Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya based on Sasuke's statement. It was decided that Sasuke was not a reliable source of information regarding Momoshiki's and Kinshiki's powers, since he never faced both until some chapters later. It's also concluded that the statements of "greater threat" and Kaguya fearing them are not enough to make Momoshiki stronger than her, considering the context of her past, and the power-ups that she received during the 1000 years she was on Earth. She also feared three Otsutsuki at the same time, and not only one. The feats displayed are also inconsistent with this scaling, since Momoshiki fought and had trouble with SPSM Naruto after having his chakra drained for a long period of time, and Sasuke, who was low on chakra by using portals, while Kaguya fought and easily overpowered both Naruto and Sasuke at peak condition. This topic has been brought several times during a brief period of time, and the staff and regular members are tired of dealing with the subject."

Is this fine to apply now?

Also, thank you to all staff members who helped out to evaluate this.
Click to expand...
That looks good Ant, thanks!
 
I was reminded about this.
LordTracer said:
Last thing I’m gonna say, @UchihaSlayer96 requested for me to say this for him:

“I think it's about time we also officially decide on how Momoshiki's Novel feats should be handled. It gets brought up even more often than him scaling to Kaguya, and people usually use the retconned movie novel or mistranslated/out of context quotes to prove he's Universal or whatever. I think we should at least formally declare that the movie novel isn't usable anymore.”
Click to expand...
How can we handle this?

Do we just say that we can't refer to it because the novel is retconned?
 
Do we just say that we can't refer to it because the novel is retconned?
Click to expand...

The novel is entirely irrelevant. We don't use it anymore for the profiles because of the retcons.
 
The discussion rule page is locked. Can someone add
Antvasima said:
"Please refrain from attempting to upgrade Momoshiki and Kinshiki above Kaguya based on Sasuke's statement. It was decided that Sasuke was not a reliable source of information regarding Momoshiki's and Kinshiki's powers, since he never faced both until some chapters later. It's also concluded that the statements of "greater threat" and Kaguya fearing them are not enough to make Momoshiki stronger than her, considering the context of her past, and the power-ups that she received during the 1000 years she was on Earth. She also feared three Otsutsuki at the same time, and not only one. The feats displayed are also inconsistent with this scaling, since Momoshiki fought and had trouble with SPSM Naruto after having his chakra drained for a long period of time, and Sasuke, who was low on chakra by using portals, while Kaguya fought and easily overpowered both Naruto and Sasuke at peak condition. This topic has been brought several times during a brief period of time, and the staff and regular members are tired of dealing with the subject."
Click to expand...
KingTempest said:
Please refrain from using the "Boruto: Naruto the Movie Novelization" for scaling. It has been retconned by the anime and the manga, which makes it unsuitable for scaling.
Click to expand...
onto the Naruto section?

Actually, before we add it, @Antvasima (sorry to bother you) do you have any issues with the grammar + sentence flow of the second one?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I made a minor correction in your last quote, and I think that both rules should be fine to add now. Is somebody here willing to do so?
 
I would have to unlock the Discussion Rules page for that, and I do not know if that is appropriate. Is any staff member here willing to handle it?
 
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