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Naruto AP High 6-C Character Revision Thread
- Thread starter NoodIes67
- Start date
- Status
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Speed, power and durability. What I said is applicable for all.
And I put examples of that too. Madara chakra > Tsunade chakra, but Madara's Susano which is above himself in durability was teared by Tsunade. Madara can't clash against Tsunade in a head-on clash of fists, he will be destroyed.
Naruto will get oneshoted in his Base form against a Sakura's punch (beginning of timeskip) and he has more chakra than Sakura.
And there were tons of examples.
And I put examples of that too. Madara chakra > Tsunade chakra, but Madara's Susano which is above himself in durability was teared by Tsunade. Madara can't clash against Tsunade in a head-on clash of fists, he will be destroyed.
Naruto will get oneshoted in his Base form against a Sakura's punch (beginning of timeskip) and he has more chakra than Sakura.
And there were tons of examples.
Tsunade and Sakura both have the same ability of amping their taijutsu to be that strong, Madara and Naruto do have the chakra to beat them but they just need to go into higher forms to access all of it. I also don't see why this is very relevant to the AP upgrades for these characters.
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@JaJasBizarreAdventure
One of the arguments of this thread's author is 4┬║ Raikage has Bjuu chakra amounts for those scallings.
-Debunked, the amount of chakra doesnt mean anything.
Another argument is yours for example, X injured a Bjuu, Bjuu tanks his own bjuudama.
For this argument I simply post this. "So this is the power of Bjuus?" "They destroyed a Mountain..." Quite speechless these two guys who has the power of Bjuus for being able to harm them or others characters than fought against Bjuus? Yeah, its meaning is obvious, they are not even close to that power. Why are they afraid of these bjuubombs when these things explode and their AoE is not focused like a punch/Raikiri/kunai/in general all smaller attacks that they fight against other ninjas?
Another one is for example, Hidan harmed 2 tails and got his blood. Kakashi and Asuma could block Hidan's scythe with a kunai and their strength alone. For Asuma it wasimpressive this. So Asuma = Kakashi more or less with a kunai.
It's quite clear, Bjuu are weak to physical attacks. So harming them or tank their phyiscal strikes doesnt mean nothing. Bjuudamas >>>>>> all of their other jutsus/physical attacks/their durability to physical attacks.
One of the arguments of this thread's author is 4┬║ Raikage has Bjuu chakra amounts for those scallings.
-Debunked, the amount of chakra doesnt mean anything.
Another argument is yours for example, X injured a Bjuu, Bjuu tanks his own bjuudama.
For this argument I simply post this. "So this is the power of Bjuus?" "They destroyed a Mountain..." Quite speechless these two guys who has the power of Bjuus for being able to harm them or others characters than fought against Bjuus? Yeah, its meaning is obvious, they are not even close to that power. Why are they afraid of these bjuubombs when these things explode and their AoE is not focused like a punch/Raikiri/kunai/in general all smaller attacks that they fight against other ninjas?
Another one is for example, Hidan harmed 2 tails and got his blood. Kakashi and Asuma could block Hidan's scythe with a kunai and their strength alone. For Asuma it wasimpressive this. So Asuma = Kakashi more or less with a kunai.
It's quite clear, Bjuu are weak to physical attacks. So harming them or tank their phyiscal strikes doesnt mean nothing. Bjuudamas >>>>>> all of their other jutsus/physical attacks/their durability to physical attacks.
The amount of chakra does mean something, your refutation involved Sakura and Tsunade which involves a special technique that amplifies fists. Raikage has feats that are Bijuu level and not just that statement. The statement of his Biju level chakra is referring to his lightning cloak which is made out of chakra as well.
This point about Guy and Kakashi being scared of them since they destroyed mountains is because they don't have attacks with that level of Destructive Capability, Guy even has blatant scaling to Kisame so he's obviously not scared of them because of AP.
There's no evidence that Hidan actually cut the 2 tails and it's already been explained why Kakuzu is logically the only one capable of doing this. Your evidence that Bijuu are weak to physical attacks has already been debunked and it's never been proven.
This point about Guy and Kakashi being scared of them since they destroyed mountains is because they don't have attacks with that level of Destructive Capability, Guy even has blatant scaling to Kisame so he's obviously not scared of them because of AP.
There's no evidence that Hidan actually cut the 2 tails and it's already been explained why Kakuzu is logically the only one capable of doing this. Your evidence that Bijuu are weak to physical attacks has already been debunked and it's never been proven.
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@Ronnijuro
Your debunk is circular reasoning.Your debunk is that these people aren't this powerful because the people they damaged aren't this powerful because they damaged them.Clearly a logical fallacy.Once again prove that their destructive capbility equals their attack potency.Kakashi simply saying he's impressed by their destrucitve power does not scale to the their attack potency.These peoeple damaging them is not a debunk you need present atcual evidence.You need to provide why these are anti feats.They are not scared they are simply impressed by their destructive power.That is not a debunk all this means is that those people are that strong.Also it's heavily implied that kakuzu did all the heavy lifting and hidan did nothing.
Your debunk is circular reasoning.Your debunk is that these people aren't this powerful because the people they damaged aren't this powerful because they damaged them.Clearly a logical fallacy.Once again prove that their destructive capbility equals their attack potency.Kakashi simply saying he's impressed by their destrucitve power does not scale to the their attack potency.These peoeple damaging them is not a debunk you need present atcual evidence.You need to provide why these are anti feats.They are not scared they are simply impressed by their destructive power.That is not a debunk all this means is that those people are that strong.Also it's heavily implied that kakuzu did all the heavy lifting and hidan did nothing.
You're ignoring that Raikage has other Bijuu level scaling so this is all irrelevant but I'll entertain you still.
Sakura and Tsunade have attacks that are used to amp their fists by directly moving chakra to their fists. If people like Madara or early Shippüden Naruto could do the same thing, they'd be stronger as well.
Your argument with Madara having more chakra but being slower than Tobirama doesn't matter, as speed and power can be trained separately. Also Madara having more chakra than Tobirama and being stronger than him further supports my argument, you can be faster than others without having more chakra than them.
Sakura and Tsunade have attacks that are used to amp their fists by directly moving chakra to their fists. If people like Madara or early Shippüden Naruto could do the same thing, they'd be stronger as well.
Your argument with Madara having more chakra but being slower than Tobirama doesn't matter, as speed and power can be trained separately. Also Madara having more chakra than Tobirama and being stronger than him further supports my argument, you can be faster than others without having more chakra than them.
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- Thread starter
- #90
How is the 8 tails weak to physical attacks when it's body can tank large island level amounts of force, in order for something to be able to cut the 8 tails they would also have to use a relative amount of force regardless of whether that's applied through a ninjitsu or taijutsu, neither minato or sasuke's attacks bypass conventional durability so they would also just have that attack potency, all you are doing is attempting to downplay the 8 tails based upon the times he is cut by people such minato and the raikage just so your argument can remain consistent. It is a dishonest tactic. The 8 tails is not weak to cutting attacks his body has survived a large island level of force so anyone that can damage him would also be that level.
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- #91
Cutting someone is not a form of bypassing durability, a sword or knife just focuses the force upon the blade, which in turn makes it easier to cut. If I applied the same amount of force to both a ping pong paddle and a knife, the blade of the knife would be the focus point of my force, whereas the ping pong paddle would have my force spread all across its surface area making it weaker.
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So your argument is that Hebi Sasuke, who cut through the Eight-Tails effortlessly, is High 6-C+.
And when that version of Sasuke later uses his Raikiri and fails to cause significant damage to the 4th Raikage, that would make the 4th Raikage significantly more durable than the Eight-Tails.
Does that seem likely to you?
And when that version of Sasuke later uses his Raikiri and fails to cause significant damage to the 4th Raikage, that would make the 4th Raikage significantly more durable than the Eight-Tails.
Does that seem likely to you?
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- Thread starter
- #93
That's literally part of my scaling to place the 4th raikage's durability at biju level, the lightning cloak is specifically known for being durable as shown with the 3rd raikage when the only person who had even damaged him while in his lightning cloak was himself. So yes it does seem likely to me.
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So the conclussion is: Kishimoto draws craters showing his characters strength for nothing because all characters actually can harm Mountain/Large Mountain/whatever Bjuus and their attacks are focused so they dont need to show any destruction effects...
These narutofans with their DB logic kill me... of laugh.
These narutofans with their DB logic kill me... of laugh.
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- Thread starter
- #95
No kishimoto draws his characters with that destructive capability to display their destructive capability. He also draws the vapor around the craters to show they have been vaporized as well which would require a certain level of force. That's why we calc these feats, so we can actually find out how much attack potency is behind the attack, guy and kakashi being impressed by the DC of the biju does not contradict our scaling. This isn't DB logic either and this claim has already been refuted previously, but I refuted it again anyway, if you have nothing more to add to the thread, there is no need for you to comment.
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Ofc is DB logic. No character which here has scalling has any feat like Bjuus, not near at all. Their feats are crap in comparison and they can harm physically Bjuus.
Why are Bjuus even so mystical and divine beings because of their power (bjuudamas) if any random has their same AP but with reduced AoE? xDD
Pls, there was no one with some common sense who can think like the author of this thread or you for example after seeing Naruto.
Why are Bjuus even so mystical and divine beings because of their power (bjuudamas) if any random has their same AP but with reduced AoE? xDD
Pls, there was no one with some common sense who can think like the author of this thread or you for example after seeing Naruto.
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- Thread starter
- #97
Actually both Guy and deidera have feats that are on the level of biju, so you're wrong on that, and there are other forms of evidence to scale characters AP. Such as direct scaling above said biju or scaling above other characters who scale above the biju. Biju aren't mythical divine beings, and these aren't random characters, every character on the thread are some of the strongest characters in the verse. Your last little paragraph is just a nice appeal to ignorance. Again DC and AP have already been proven to be mutually exclusive, so they are not reliant upon each other, just because the biju have a destructive attack does not mean that they would have higher AP than characters who have scaling directly above them. You know hashirama has no island level+ feats. Are the biju now stronger than him despite him literally beating a susanoo amped 9 tails?
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Gai doesnt any shit and what's the point of Deidara's C0 here? The people here are giving scalling Mountain lvl to Raikage's punch/Lariat for breaking a horn or to Sasuke for cutting a tentacle.
Hashirama has antiBjuus jutsus, he can absorb their chakra with the Mokuton and restrain them, what's your point? He beat the Susano with 9 tails with THOUSANDS of hits, what's impressive of that feat? Against a human size character and faster than him, that feat for example is crap and useless.
Hashirama has antiBjuus jutsus, he can absorb their chakra with the Mokuton and restrain them, what's your point? He beat the Susano with 9 tails with THOUSANDS of hits, what's impressive of that feat? Against a human size character and faster than him, that feat for example is crap and useless.
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- #99
Guy and Kisame's hirudora/Shark bomb clash was called at island level so yes he does. The point of C0 is to show you that some of these characters that we are scaling also have biju level feats, which you claim they didn't. The reason breaking a horn or a tentacle is impressive is because the 8 tails body is capable of tanking his own attacks so they would have to use a relative amount of force to a biju bomb in order to cut him. Hashirama's wood golem literally caught a 9 tails biju bomb and shoved it back at majestic attire susanoo. Hashirama is also capable of holding down the 10 tails in edo. Hashirama is also compared to KCM 2 naruto as an edo tensei, and finally Hashirama was stated by madara to be the strongest shinobi of his time. yet he has no island level feats so i guess he is weaker than the biju lol.
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> Guy and Kisame's hirudora/Shark bomb clash was called at island level so yes he does.
There's an evaluated calc for this? Could you link it please?
> The point of C0 is to show you that some of these characters that we are scaling also have biju level feats, which you claim they didn't.
C0 is not a feat that Deidara can do typically.
There's an evaluated calc for this? Could you link it please?
> The point of C0 is to show you that some of these characters that we are scaling also have biju level feats, which you claim they didn't.
C0 is not a feat that Deidara can do typically.
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- #101
I do not think the kisame and guy calc has been evaluated but that doesn't actually address my primary argument anyway. It does not matter if C0 isn't a feat he can perform normally, this was just a refutation to the argument "they don't have destructive feats, therefore they're weaker than biju." We cannot just overlook scaling due to a lack of DC, which holds no relevance to AP as we have seen characters can have a high AP without showing insane destructive feats. I have yet to see a legitimate refutation to the scaling for most of these characters so far so I'd like to see some actual counter arguments rather than this already debunked DC argument.
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Okay, I'll focus on a specific part:
> So the scaling for Rasa is simple as it is directly stated in the databook that Rasa would subdue Shukaku when he would go on rampages
It is explained that Gold Jutsu can suppress Sand Jutsu because the Gold is heavier than the sand. He is not shown to be actually harming Shukaku and it is not a contest of AP.
> During the war when the edo-kage were resurrected Rasa states that he was sure the sand coming their waywas the power of shukaku. Which turns out to be Gaara's sand.
He's confusing it for Shukaku because it is the same technique that Shukaku would use (since Gaara is his former host). He doesn't seem to be comparing their power.
And if he was, how would it make any sense for Gaara, the former host of a Tailed Beast, to be the exact same level of power as he was when the Tailed Beast was inside of him?
> So the scaling for Rasa is simple as it is directly stated in the databook that Rasa would subdue Shukaku when he would go on rampages
It is explained that Gold Jutsu can suppress Sand Jutsu because the Gold is heavier than the sand. He is not shown to be actually harming Shukaku and it is not a contest of AP.
> During the war when the edo-kage were resurrected Rasa states that he was sure the sand coming their waywas the power of shukaku. Which turns out to be Gaara's sand.
He's confusing it for Shukaku because it is the same technique that Shukaku would use (since Gaara is his former host). He doesn't seem to be comparing their power.
And if he was, how would it make any sense for Gaara, the former host of a Tailed Beast, to be the exact same level of power as he was when the Tailed Beast was inside of him?
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- #103
Okay so starting off the gold sand that rasa is using in order to subdue shukaku, would be required to physically overpower him or he would just break free from it like madara did against gaara. Second when rasa states this is the "power of shukaku" he is saying that the Ability being used is the same as shukaku and he prepares to match it which he then does as well. Garaa is the same level of power due to this statement where rasa states the power protecting garaa over the years was his mother as supported by the image formed in garaa's sand. This makes sense as garaa never displayed any control over shukaku as well, the only times he was able to use shukaku is when he would let shukaku take over his body. Garaa's sand was also able to tank attacks from madara's susanoo clones and the full power raikage after having shukaku extracted, and rasa was able to stalemate this same sand. Also deidera's C3. Any more questions?
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He doesnt need AP or durability to subdue Bjuus, he only needs to restrain them with Mokuton.
And Madara only needs a MS to put them into Genjutsu and use as a pawn.
So this " nd finally Hashirama was stated by madara to be the strongest shinobi of his time. yet he has no island level feats so i guess he is weaker than the biju lol. " is only you and your tears.
Not everything is power and durability in Naruto, this is not DB!
And Madara only needs a MS to put them into Genjutsu and use as a pawn.
So this " nd finally Hashirama was stated by madara to be the strongest shinobi of his time. yet he has no island level feats so i guess he is weaker than the biju lol. " is only you and your tears.
Not everything is power and durability in Naruto, this is not DB!
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Nobody replied to this.
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> Okay so starting off the gold sand that rasa is using in order to subdue shukaku, would be required to physically overpower him or he would just break free from it like madara did against gaara.
Shukaku has no High 6-C+ physical feats. That's part of the problem with the current scaling on profiles.
Shukaku has no High 6-C+ physical feats. That's part of the problem with the current scaling on profiles.
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@Jvando; I don't think he has any feats on that level. At best he currently recieves High 6-C+ scaling due to the likelihood of his Biju Bomb being comparable to other Tailed Beasts.
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- #109
Hashirama has the AP to subdue biju as well though, as he is directly stated stronger than madara who is capable of beating multiple biju level characters. (The Kage) and madara's susanoo is shown to be directly comparable to the 9 tails as it tanked a full 9 tails biju bombHashirama literally beat the susanoo armor off of the 9 tails later in the fight, and is directly stated stronger than madara so yes hahsirama and madara are both stronger than the biju. Also madara's susanoo is directly stated to rival the bijuu in power as well.
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@Noodles67; if Madara's Perfect Susano'o could rival the Biju in power, yet is clearly many, many times more powerful than the Kage. How does it make sense for each of the Kage to also rival the Biju in power?
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- #111
He doesn't rival the normal biju, he rivals the 9 tails hence why his susanoo was able to tank a full 9 tails biju bomb. Just in case you forgot what a 9 tails biju bomb did to the combined attack of all the other biju.
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Ofc Madara can beat Bjuus. Even Sasuke, Hidan, Kakuzu, Madara himself with his own body, Raikages can defeat them with their physical power, let alone someone with a Susano who can cut mountains. What an argument o.o!
And he tanked that Bjuudama because he fused quickly his Susano with the Kyubi, he didnt tank that with the Susano alone. It's in your scan btw.
He has the AP to chop Kyubi in half because he is weak to physical attacks but he does not have the durability to tank his Bjuudamas. Anyway, he is faster and winning Kyubi is not an impressive feat. And like I said, he didnt need to use brute strength to defeat Kyubi when he has Mangekyo Sharingan, Genjutsu and gg.
Like I said, Hashirama needed THOUSANDS OF HITS to destroy that, that's not an impressive feat at all. And Hashirama doesnt need that to defeat Bjuus. His Mokuton can restrain them, it's their weakness! He doesnt need AP for that, it's a special ability.
And he tanked that Bjuudama because he fused quickly his Susano with the Kyubi, he didnt tank that with the Susano alone. It's in your scan btw.
He has the AP to chop Kyubi in half because he is weak to physical attacks but he does not have the durability to tank his Bjuudamas. Anyway, he is faster and winning Kyubi is not an impressive feat. And like I said, he didnt need to use brute strength to defeat Kyubi when he has Mangekyo Sharingan, Genjutsu and gg.
Like I said, Hashirama needed THOUSANDS OF HITS to destroy that, that's not an impressive feat at all. And Hashirama doesnt need that to defeat Bjuus. His Mokuton can restrain them, it's their weakness! He doesnt need AP for that, it's a special ability.
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- #113
Okay since you agree madara is strong enough to beat the biju, hashirama is stated stronger than him. also his armor didn't fuse with the 9 tails, it just covered the 9 tails and the fact that hashirama can literally beat the susanoo off the 9 tails, would mean he would have to have more AP than the 9 tails biju bombs.
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These sentence structures are confusing me honestly.
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If you don't mind.
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It doesnt matter if Hashirama is stronger than Madara, that didnt mean that he was above in AP, durability or whatever.
A single attack (slash in this case) from Perfect Susano >>>>>> any individual attack from any jutsu from Hashirama
THOUSANDS of hits of Buda > Slash of Kyubi Susano = 1 full charged Bjuudama from Kyubi >>>>> a single slash from Perfect Susano >>>>> A SINGLE HIT from the Buda
In durability for example Hashirama only wins against Madara if he uses massive amount of mokuton as defense, but for example a slash from Kyubi Susano cut every "hand" of Mokuton.
So the thing about "this one is stronger than this other one" doesnt mean anything in Naruto. Everyone stand out on some aspect a the fights and powerscalling is like rock, paper, scissors. Meaning that if A beat B and B beat C, that doesnt mean A can beat C too.
Base Minato is crap in AP and durability and with his speed he might kill Hashirama because he is faster and kunai to the neck, gg.
A single attack (slash in this case) from Perfect Susano >>>>>> any individual attack from any jutsu from Hashirama
THOUSANDS of hits of Buda > Slash of Kyubi Susano = 1 full charged Bjuudama from Kyubi >>>>> a single slash from Perfect Susano >>>>> A SINGLE HIT from the Buda
In durability for example Hashirama only wins against Madara if he uses massive amount of mokuton as defense, but for example a slash from Kyubi Susano cut every "hand" of Mokuton.
So the thing about "this one is stronger than this other one" doesnt mean anything in Naruto. Everyone stand out on some aspect a the fights and powerscalling is like rock, paper, scissors. Meaning that if A beat B and B beat C, that doesnt mean A can beat C too.
Base Minato is crap in AP and durability and with his speed he might kill Hashirama because he is faster and kunai to the neck, gg.
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U make no sense at the same time u make sense
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- #120
What do you mean it doesn't matter if hashirama is stronger! That literally proves hashirama's attacks have more power behind them which would translate to attack potency. That's literally how AP works.
It wasn't thousands of attacks the name of the jutsu is just called True Several Thousand Hands, so naming fallacy, you wouldn't be able to show he actually hit him with thousands of attacks, but regardless his ap with that jutsu would be required to be above madara's susanoo durability or it simply wouldn't affect madara's susanoo. Imagine shooting 1000s of spitballs through a straw at a steel beam.
Hashirama in base was able to physically stop a slash from madara's susanoo, so you cannot claim that his single attacks are weaker when a weaker hashirama was able to stop this attack. You literally haven't read this fight have you?
This is an AP revision thread, we are discussing the attack potency and durability of characters based upon their scaling within the series, I understand that Naruto is not a verse solely based upon a characters strength as there are hax that each character can use, but that is not what this thread is about nor has my AP scaling been contradicted.
Okay this minato point is a derail but I'll entertain you anyway. Hashirama is relative to tobirama in speed, and this same tobirama was capable of reacting a combating juubito who literally blitzed kcm minato on 2 seperate occasions, so minato is not faster than hashirama, and even if he hypothetically was hashirama has better Regenerationn than Tsunade who was capable of surviving having all of her internal organs crushed when she was fighting madara, so a slice to the neck would actually be irrelavant to hashirama.
It wasn't thousands of attacks the name of the jutsu is just called True Several Thousand Hands, so naming fallacy, you wouldn't be able to show he actually hit him with thousands of attacks, but regardless his ap with that jutsu would be required to be above madara's susanoo durability or it simply wouldn't affect madara's susanoo. Imagine shooting 1000s of spitballs through a straw at a steel beam.
Hashirama in base was able to physically stop a slash from madara's susanoo, so you cannot claim that his single attacks are weaker when a weaker hashirama was able to stop this attack. You literally haven't read this fight have you?
This is an AP revision thread, we are discussing the attack potency and durability of characters based upon their scaling within the series, I understand that Naruto is not a verse solely based upon a characters strength as there are hax that each character can use, but that is not what this thread is about nor has my AP scaling been contradicted.
Okay this minato point is a derail but I'll entertain you anyway. Hashirama is relative to tobirama in speed, and this same tobirama was capable of reacting a combating juubito who literally blitzed kcm minato on 2 seperate occasions, so minato is not faster than hashirama, and even if he hypothetically was hashirama has better Regenerationn than Tsunade who was capable of surviving having all of her internal organs crushed when she was fighting madara, so a slice to the neck would actually be irrelavant to hashirama.
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