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My Little Pony Movie

Lightbuster30 said:
snip
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Except it's not remotely vague at all. Luna asks if Twilight really wants them to move the sun and the moon. Twilight responds that she would do it herself, but can't.

That's it.

It's extremely cut and dry.

You also claim Twilight never tried this. Firstly, she moved the sun when she had all the Alicorn magic, so she knows what it feels like. Second, how can you definitively say she never tried on her own, when she says she would do it herself if she could?

Also

"Feats>>>>Statements"

Yes, and Twilight has exactly one potentiallyTier 4 feat. Deflecting a magic blast from a weakened Pony of Shadows. Starswirl, a 4-C character, was so weakened from the imprisonment in limbo that he initially couldn't even properly use his magic. It's not outlandish to claim the PoS was much weaker than its full power in that scene, as when we later see him after regaining some strength, he tanks a souped-up version of the Elements of Harmony.

Giving Twilight "At most Low 4-C" for her tier right now based on the information that is currently available (like every other character her tier could go up or down based on new information) is the best you're going to get, and that's assuming the most generous scaling and that the only thing she couldn't move herself was the sun.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
wrote: snip
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Wrong. She knows what it feels like moving the Sun while over charged on 3 other alicorns magic, not under her own power. The easy answer is that she underestimates herself and thinks irrationally when under stress. This literally happened at least twice in the movie. Unless she actually tried and failed moving the Sun then her statement is not reliable. We don't know what happened, all we know is that she didn't feel confident enough to do it.

Wrong again. Starswirl was so weak because he and the others sacrificed a great deal of their magic to make the ToH. And we all know how ponies get weak when the magic tank is running low. The PoS on the other hand did no such thing. He didn't have to use a great deal of magic for a tree, so saying "Starswirl was super weakened, therefore the PoS is equally so." Is false.

This PoS took the EoH, and their prototype, together to bring him down. You seriously expect me to believe the PoS got almost 1000 times weaker? (I did some math) Yeah sorry not buying it.

At Most or Possibly 4-C is more than fair as she was directly compared to Starswirl, and has a feat, however unquantifable to back it. If Twilight is low 4-C and is comparable to Starswirl, then by extension Starswirl is also Low 4-C. And we both know that's BS from the journal. He wasn't talking about current Starswirl either, no it's easy to put together what he meant.

At the very least High End Low 4-C is deserving.
 
Also Twilight overpowered the Storm King off screeen in the clouds and stole his staff. The Storm King was enough of a threat to send an entire country running for the hills. Note that said country could defeat him in his current state with their pearl.

I'm not calling Twilight High 4-C. All she did was fight the Storm King and wrangle the staff from him. But that would still require beating his base strength.

Of course I'll admit, we don't know exactly what happened, but Tempest fought him off. No azathoth, contrary to your belief (Based on one of your comments), holding someone back does not automatically equal you to their full power. But it certainly is enough to put one within their league. You can't argue she is low 4-C because a low 4-C would slaughtered against a high 4-C.
 
"Wrong. She knows what it feels like moving the Sun while over charged on 3 other alicorns magic, not under her own power."

This missed the point by so far I think it landed in another country.

"The easy answer is that she underestimates herself and thinks irrationally when under stress."

Literally nothing suggests this is the case here. "I don't know if I can beat this opponent" is extremely different to "I don't think I can move this object". This is complete conjecture.

"all we know is that she didn't feel confident enough to do it."

Then because only a single feat of hers could even possibly contradict this, she likely couldn't.

"Starswirl was so weak because he and the others sacrificed a great deal of their magic to make the ToH. And we all know how ponies get weak when the magic tank is running low."

Then why was the PoS in a weakened state? For no reason whatsoever? He says he's growing stronger and starts absorbing light mere moments before being hit with the spell. Then, as soon as he comes back from being frozen in limbo, he says he's in a weakened state. It's safe to say the spell is what did it, and that it had a pretty notable effect on him, as he quickly retreats to gather power.

"This PoS took the EoH, and their prototype, together to bring him down. You seriously expect me to believe the PoS got almost 1000 times weaker? (I did some math) Yeah sorry not buying it."

>comparing the PoS after he's had time to gather strength at the very place his strength comes from to a PoS who had just been hit with one of the most powerful feats in magical history and said he was weakened.

Yeah. Sure. Ok.

The "I don't believe this could be that much weaker so it's obviously not" approach isn't accepted for any verse, by the way.

"At Most or Possibly 4-C is more than fair as she was directly compared to Starswirl, and has a feat, however unquantifable to back it. If Twilight is low 4-C and is comparable to Starswirl, then by extension Starswirl is also Low 4-C."

No, he said almost as strong as Starswirl. Starswirl is base 4-C. Being almost that level is a maximum of Low 4-C, no matter how you cut it.

"Also Twilight overpowered the Storm King off screeen in the clouds and stole his staff."

...This is a thing that never happened. Twilight and the Storm King were thrown off by the tornado, and Twilight already had the staff when this occurred. I am watching the scene as I type this just to try and comprehend where this idea came from. Not only was the Storm King thrown off first, but the two were thrown off in entirely different directions.

"No azathoth, contrary to your belief (Based on one of your comments), holding someone back does not automatically equal you to their full power. But it certainly is enough to put one within their league. You can't argue she is low 4-C because a low 4-C would slaughtered against a high 4-C."

This is like, the most hilariously bullshit comment I've seen in a long time, with no understanding of what an outlier or PIS is. Tempest is very, very explicitly not on the level of Celestia, Luna, and Cadance. She mentions multiple times how great their power is and how she would like to use it if she had power like that. She believes that such overwhelming power will be enough to fix her horn. She is not being scaled to barely countering a casual blast from an object powered by Celestia, Luna, Cadance, and Twilight's magic. This implies she has roughly comparable strength, which is not at all the case.

Seriously. Drop this. It's growing extremely tiresome, and you are bringing nothing new to the table. My patience for this is growing very thin, and that's genuinely pretty rare for something that isn't the seven billionth upgrade thread that posts the same exact things. Nothing is going to be accomplished by headcanon. We even applied the option of the most high-end interpretation to her profile, yet you still continue with this nonsense. The rating currently on Twilight's profile best reflects what we know about her at the moment.
 
The Everlasting said:
...So .
Az, what's the short version on us tiering the PoS, Starswirl and Alicorn Twilight?
Click to expand...
Twilight's is already up.

Starswirl is solid 4-C, since he's basically Celestia level.

I believe PoS should be High 4-C, especially with how small the 4-C gap is, but I guess one could make some kind of argument for 4-C. His durability should definitely be High 4-C, though.
 
IIRC, it took the EoH, PoE, Starswirl, Twilight, and Starlight to overpower the "Shadow" part of the PoS to bring Stygian out.

So High 4-C AP seems solid enough, IMO.
 
Would you like to make his page when you are able, or should I?

Also, I like how this went from a discussion thread on the movie to the S7 finale.
 
I should probably skip out on a key for Stygian, since he's completely featless and the Shadow seems to be an entirely separate entity regardless.
 
So, has everything been settled here, or is there still anything that needs to be discussed?
 
I will wait to see if Azathoth and The Everlasting think that I should close the thread.
 
Question: Why does The Storm King has FTL speed on his profile? If it is for moving the sun at FTL speeds with his magic and easily controlling it, then I proposed that same reasoning for why characters such as All Alicorn Twilight or Full Power Tirek should get FTL+ reactions for doing pretty much the same feat, and as such should get this as well. It's even consistent, since both feats come from using the power 4 Alicorns.
 
We cannot scale their physical movement speeds from that. I will adjust the Storm King's speed.
 
The storm, yes but moving the sun at FTL speeds is not possible according to the laws of physics, so I think that calculating it yields imaginary numbers.
 
Understood I just saw Darkanine looking though scenes to see if there was any part that the sun moving wasn't FTL
 
@Azathoth

1. Well wouldn't it be different with someone else's power and not your own? (Honest question)

2. Is it though? I mean watching the earlier scene she looked pretty unfocused. On the other hand she seemed plenty calm when confronting the princesses. OK I'll give up that one.

3. Well now this is just a theory of mine. You said he started absorbing light before getting sent to limbo right? Then is it possible he was weakened because he never got the chance to start absorbing much power?

4. If being almost on the level of a 4-C makes you high end Low 4-C then why does Twilight have Low 4-C at her most? Being 50x weaker than someone isn't "comparable" in any sense of the word. It's like comparing a toddler to a black belt. Hey I said earlier that it's possible she is really close to 4-C but not completely.

4.1 Or what about this as a theory? What if Twilight's adventure simply made her stronger since the movie? That's assuming of course the movie occurred before the finale. Just a suggestion.

5. Oh. Well being completely honest, I may have miss-remembered that scene. Nasty habit of mine, tend to forget the details.

6. I said near their league. I never said on their level. I'd imagine you'd have to be at least in range of someone's power to survive an assault from them. You don't have to be as strong as them, but you certainly can't be hundreds of times weaker. A casual blast is not the same power as a max power blast. If she deflected a full power one then I guess I could conceed but as you said, it was casual. But since you are growing tired of this, I may as well let this part go.

7. Really? Well I personally enjoy our discussion. No need to get agitated with me. (it sounds like it, but that may be my lack of communication skills) I'm just having a friendly debate over Twilight's power. I don't mean anything by it, I've even conceeded to most of your points. I'm being more reasonable than I act.

7.1 You most certainly did not apply any high end to her profile. You simply reverted it back to what it was previously. (Antvasima implied it was this before) If she is on par with Starswirl, yet unable to lift the Sun, then this warrants an At Least Low 4-C, not an At Most. That's what I'm primarily arguing for here.
 
1. It would be a different experience, but one would know what it felt like. Twilight even notably struggled to keep it on a straight path because she'd never done so before, so it wasn't like the added magic was doing anything for her there aside from actually moving it.

2. Ok.

3. I mean, maybe? I don't think he'd be weakened just from not absorbing enough when he was already strong at that point, and basically just taunting Starswirl.

4. "At most" doesn't mean that she is necessarily low in that tier. It just means that if we assume that she is both almost as strong as Starswirl AND incapable of moving the sun, that would lead to a maximum of Low 4-C. The rest is there to account for her lower levels, as we know from multiple scenes and flashbacks with Twilight, she's not always at her fullest potential.

5. It's fine.

6. Yes, it is just that the difference between the tier Tempest is constantly portrayed at and the tier that scaling would lead us to is astronomical.

7. It is less the discussion itself and more that the latter portion of your comment came off as rather condescending. If I misread your intent, I sincerely apologize, as I did not mean to snap at you.

Anyway, by the high end being there I mean the Low 4-C being there. This way Twilight's power fluctuation is accounted for, and we don't end up with Small Star level that-one-Storm-minion-who-overpowered-Twilight-and-RainbowDash. At her best, she would still be Low 4-C.

Though thinking about it, being on the upper end should technically be Small Star level+.
 
1. I thought she had a difficult time because she was supercharged? She did have problems with her teleportation.
3. Well I don't know if they were that weak anyways. I mean if Starswirl was that significantly weakened, he wouldn't be throwing a fit about Twilight endangering Equestria. I know he had difficulty casting his magic, but magic can have averse effects on physical stamina when significantly low. Plus the PoS could cast magic just fine, unlike Starswirl. I'm just not sure.

4. Doesn't it though? In general, "at most" is exactly what it sounds like: "Your max power". It's even there on the AP page. If she is higher in the tier, then she should have at least.

6. Is it though? She did overpower Twilight with her goons, and took a beating from Novo (it was either in a book or the comic)

7. Being honest I was but not in the way you think. I never meant to be disrespectful. Sarcasm is just how I talk. I hang out with people who ate cynical and condescending so I'm used to talking like that. The fact that I am something of a shut in probably doesn't help any.

I forget that not everyone speaks like that so I tend to come off as rude. Believe me when I say I hate upsetting people, and I try not to if I can help it.

Basically, if I come off as sarcastic, just know I mean nothing by it, and I am trying to fix it.

Well based on what we have seen, is it alright if I change it to "At Least Low 4-C"? I mean we seem to be on the same page in regards to Twilight.
 
As for that one Storm King minion, he didn't show anything to be on the power of Twilight, he simply reflected a beam with his shield that for all we know was built to reflect magical blasts. The scene did strike me as odd, but we have more consistent showings that show them likely being comparable to the rest of the Mane 6 and in the Tier 7 range.
 
@Pikachu

Wrong one. I'm referring to the one who physically overpowered Twilight amd Rainbow Dash when they were trying to escape Capper's place.

@Light

1. I would think that would just make it move really fast (which it also did), kind of like how her teleportation would often jump way too far.

3. He had both just finished casting one of the most advanced spells in Equestrian history (since time hadn't moved for him) and was shown to have expended so much energy that it wasn't until later he could properly use his magic. It just fizzled when he first tried it.

4. Yes. As in, the higher end of Low 4-C would be her current max power. "At least Low 4-C" implies that is the minimum of her power, which it definitely isn't.

6. Exactly. With her goons. That would mean scaling them to Twilight. I don't know which thing she fought Novo in.

7. I more meant genuine condescension. Anyone who knows me well enough will tell you I also jokingly use sarcasm a lot as well, but don't like doing so in actual discussion since it's harder to properly convey a non-mocking tone, let alone an actual point. Again, sorry if I misread you.

As for the Low 4-C thing, I think I addressed that above.
 
0. Being fair, those mooks did have anti magic armor and weapons.

1. Well Yeah, but she also began teleporting spontaneously.

3. Which brings me back to my previous point: The PoS wasn't doing that. And if time hadn't passed for him, why would he be significantly weakened? My suggestion: He wasn't at the place where he gained powwr, and was weaker as a result. (I base this off part of your comment.) All I'm saying is that, while he was no doubt weakened, he didn't have it nearly as bad as Starswirl.

4. So basically when you say At Most, you really mean the maximum of Low 4-C power? Or a huge portion of it? Huh, I always thought At Most meant you're at the bottom of the tier with your max power.

6. Well they did display anti magic equipment, so that may have done sonething. When Twilight got captured she was in a state of depression. Starlight once said that magic is linked to emotions, so maybe her despair weakened her?

Pretty sure the Novo thing happened outside the comics, I don't remember it in them. Besides I highly doubt the SK woukd leave an above average pony in charge of his armies, anti magic or not.

7. Yeah we (we being me and fellow debators on the forums I post at) tend to throw light hearted insults to each other a lot, even when it may be inappropriate. If you knew me irl you'd know I am snarky and cynical, so it's easy for me to slip into it.
 
@Azzy Ok I know I said I'd drop point no 2, but after some thinking, I just had an idea. What if Twilight didn't mean she was too weak to move the Sun?

Think about it: Each pony has a unique cutie mark that gives them a different skill in which they excel in. Starlight has her cutie mark msgic, Rarity has a gem detector, and Twilught appears to learn difficult spells on sight. (that last one may be sketchy) I'll bet my bottom dollar that Sun and Moon the sister's have aren't for show.

How is this relevant? Easy. Starswirl and his fellow unicorns would get incredibly weak whenever they moved the Sun. With the unicorns crippling themselves, and Starswirl needing to cast an age spell on himself. The book mentions how they have been waiting for ponies with the sister's exact talents.

My theory? The sisters special talent lets them move Celestial bodies without risk of hurting themselves. Thus, when Twilight said "I don't have your magic." She meant it literally. As in she literally lacks the magic that lets her move the Sun without hurting herself.
 
This seems to go around in circles. Should we close this thread?
 
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