My Hero Academia Upgrades

[Therefir]

> If Todoroki's fire usage can already vary from Building level to City Block level, then I see no reason why the attack he used against Stain cannot be something more reasonable like Small Building level.

No it don't vary, Todoroki need to use the Giant Ice Wall in order to use that attack, and he never used it again anyway. And even if it vary between 8-C and 8-B, how that makes his fire 9-A? That's doesn't make any sense.

> I don't think the 0.80 tons calc is useful to get the energy of a typical fire attack from him; it is an offscreen feat performed over an unspecified amount of time.

We already discussed this, there is a ton of calcs offscreen, and assuming anything more than 5 or 10 minutes is incorrect and impossible since the festival would be cancelled.

> Something that doesn't necessarily relate to his quick burst of fire to finish off Stain. And I don't think Deku's 5% scales to Todoroki's 'casual fire usage'.

Once again you don't understand that I calculated the amount of energy Todoroki puts every second on the ice, not the full five minutes.

> And look at this way; you calced Bakugo's Stun Grenade to be 9-A+. Can you really say that Shinso punching Izuku in the face is 9-A+? Do those two feats really look comparable?

First, that's an AOE fallacy, and second, no they are not comparable, you don't need to destroy a building or have Building level energy in your punches in order to be Building level, you just have to hurt someone with Building level durability.

> Look at this way; a huge chunk of scaling currently rests on assuming that Todorki's fire blast that hit Stain is Building level. I would rather be conservative in our assumptions than just saying that the fire blast is Building level in order to upgrade a huge chunk of the verse.

And what is the problem? There are other verses that scales from a single feat, at least in MHA there are other 4 Building level feats.

 

[Damage3245]

> No it don't vary, Todoroki need to use the Giant Ice Wall to use that attack, and he never used it again.

I was referring to his Maximum Fire which doesn't mention requiring the Giant Ice Wall on his profile. Still shows that his level of fire output can vary massively.

> We already discussed this, there is a tons of calcs offscreen, and assuming anything more than 5 or 10 minutes is impossible since the festival would be cancelled.

Assuming the entire Festival lasted a few hours, a longer than 10 minutes delay wouldn't be an event-cancelling amount of time.

And regarding timeframes there has to be at least some indication of how long it took otherwise it is a baseless assumption. There is no reason to assume 5 minutes.

So here is a fair question: What reason is there to assume it took him 5 minutes to melt the ice structure, as opposed to 15 mins? Or 20 mins?

> First, that's AOE fallacy, and second, no they are not comparable, you don't need to destroy a building in order to be Building level, you just have to hurt someone with Building level durability.

It's still assuming that Shinso's punch has comparable amount of energy to Bakugo's explosion. That's a huge step away from 'Shinso being even weaker than the average Hero Course student' to 'Shinso's punches are the same level as Bakugo's explosions that finished off Tokoyami'.

That's the kind of inconsistency I'm talking about that gets introduced by bad scaling. Shinso can't be simultaneously much weaker than the Hero Course students yet also able to be Small Building level+. Shinso is, at best, Wall level. Which for a character with no superhuman ability except for Brainwashing is fair.

 

[Therefir]

> I was referring to his Maximum Fire which doesn't mention requiring the Giant Ice Wall on his profile. Still shows that his level of fire output can vary massively.

Aizawa explained it quite well, Todoroki's fire was so powerful because of the rapid rise in temperature after he released the Giant Ice Wall against Izuku.

> Assuming the entire Festival lasted a few hours, a longer than 10 minutes delay wouldn't be an event-cancelling amount of time.

The festival lasted a few hours because they were watching the fights, nobody will wait an hour watching how they clean the stadium.

> It's still assuming that Shinso's punch has comparable amount of energy to Bakugo's explosion. That's a huge step away from 'Shinso being even weaker than the average Hero Course student' to 'Shinso's punches are the same level as Bakugo's explosions that finished off Tokoyami'.

I don't see how being weaker than the average Hero Course student make this feat invalid. And that kind of example can be used in many other verses.

> That's the kind of inconsistency I'm talking about that gets introduced by bad scaling. Shinso can't be simultaneously much weaker than the Hero Course students yet also able to be Small Building level+. Shinso is, at best, Wall level. Which for a character with no superhuman ability except for Brainwashing is fair.

This is just a headcanon, we can't just ignore Shinso and Tokoyami's feats because you think they are inconsistent. And to say that Shinso is Wall level at best is baseless, since he was able to hurt Izuku.

 

[Damage3245]

> Aizawa explained it quite well, Todoroki's fire was so powerful because of the rapid rise in temperature after he released the Giant Ice Wall against Izuku.

The was the explanation for the gust of wind, not for why his fire would be more powerful. The fact is his fire is already that powerful; the explosion and powerful gust of winds were caused by the rapid escalation of temperature.

> The festival lasted a few hours because they were watching the fights, nobody will wait an hour watching how they clean the stadium.

I didn't say an hour, I asked why 15 mins couldn't be a possible time.

> I don't see how being weaker than the average Hero Course student make this feat invalid.

Because you're using his feat to upgrade the physical stats of many of the Hero Course students, when the majority of Hero Course students haven't got feats anywhere close to that level. So here is Shinso supposedly weaker than the lot of them, but then he has a feat that puts him a level higher than most of them?

The concusion is that either the Hero Course students were rated too lowly, or Shinso is being rated too highly. I'm leaning towards the latter.

> This is just a headcanon, we can't just ignore Shinso and Tokoyami's feats because you think they are inconsistent. And to say that Shinso is Wall level at best is baseless, since he was able to hurt Izuku.

I'm not suggesting ignoring Tokoyami's feat. I'm saying Shinso's feat isn't consistent with it.

And we do ignore certain feats & calcs sometimes if they are inconsistent, or if they're outliers.

Being able to hurt Izuku does not make Shinso Small Building level+. This ties in to my complaints about Todoroki's fire blasts, and overrating Bakugo's explosions used against Izuku.

 

[Therefir]

> The was the explanation for the gust of wind, not for why his fire would be more powerful. The fact is his fire is already that powerful; the explosion and powerful gust of winds were caused by the rapid escalation of temperature.

I still don't understand why we scale Todoroki's maximun fire to a weakened Deku 100%.

> I didn't say an hour, I asked why 15 mins couldn't be a possible time.

I'm pretty sure we assume 1 minute > 5 > 10 > 30 > 1 hour, not randomly 12 minutes or 15 minutes.

> Because you're using his feat to upgrade the physical stats of many of the Hero Course students, when the majority of Hero Course students haven't got feats anywhere close to that level. So here is Shinso supposedly weaker than the lot of them, but then he has a feat that puts him a level higher than most of them?

Have you seen any verse with each character having feats of a similar level?

They are stronger than Shinso, that's their feat "close to that level".

> Being able to hurt Izuku does not make Shinso Small Building level+. This ties in to my complaints about Todoroki's fire blasts, and overrating Bakugo's explosions used against Izuku.

Well until that is settled, Shinso still has a Small Building level+ feat.

 

[Damage3245]

> I still don't understand why we scale Todoroki's maximun fire to a weakened Deku 100%.

I'm not sure either. I'm assuming it's because the pressure from Deku's 100% punch and the pressure for Todoroki's fire/wind explosion cancelled each other out and knocked Deku out of the wrong.

> I'm pretty sure we assume 1 minute > 5 > 10 > 30 > 1 hour, not randomly 12 minutes or 15 minutes.

That may be standard policy on timeframes but it's my point that it doesn't necessarily fit the event. Saying it is 5 mins is just as random as 15 mins. That's why I don't like using that calc.

> Well until that is settled, Shinso still has a Small Building level+.

Of course. I don't expect it to be changed on the spot. I'll be doing my best in the mean time to gather evidence of why Bakugo's explosions are lower than what is being assumed, and why Izuku doesn't scale to 0.80 tons.

 

[Therefir]

Why don't we just ask the majority what timeframe we should use?

I'm pretty tired of discussing Todoroki's feat over and over again, I want us to end this.

 

[Damage3245]

Because people might just vote for the timeframe that gives them a higher result? Why not leave it as it is for now and wait until I've had a chance to argue against it properly.

The reason we're discussing it over and over again is because it's one of the most crucial feats so far for determining the scaling in the series. Quite a lot rests on it.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

Why don't we just ask the majority what timeframe we should use?

Id be down for a week...or anything that would give me Tier 5+ Mineta.

 

[Therefir]

I've never seen a supporter wanking (In a serious way) this verse, and I think it should be fine to agree on a timeframe.

We have already discussed this enough, the only problem is the timeframe.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, the only problem isn't just the timeframe, but also about the inconsistencies it creates amongst other issues. (Izuku's 5% punch doing much less damage to Stain than Todoroki's fire blast, despite Deku hitting him in the head multiple times).

I'll get into all of this on the weekend. I'm still gathering evidence on the matter so we don't have to drag out the arguing for much longer. Let's drop the issue for now.

 

[Therefir]

Okay.

 

[Damage3245]

Which profiles do you want to upgrade using Tokoyami's feat?

 

[Therefir]

For now, Tsuyu, Kirishima without his quirk, Mina and probably Yaoyorozu.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. I don't want to be difficult but is there actually a reason for why they would scale to Tokoymai specifcially?

Because, sure, they're strong students of Class 1-A. But what is the evidence that their durability is on par with Tokoyami, as opposed to being on par with Aoyama for example.

 

[BlackeJan]

Lol i agree it wouldnt make sense that 5% and 8% would have the same AP

 

[Damage3245]

Lol i agree it wouldnt make sense that 5% and 8% would have the same AP

Not the exact same AP, but the difference between them isn't so great that they wouldn't necessarily be in the same tier.

 

[BlackeJan]

Well its just that 5% vs Bakugou(they were pretty even w/ Bakugou a little more stronger) then compare it to 8% vs Bakugou (barely had time to react and said b/c Deku's attack was straightforward that he was able to dodge it)

 

[Damage3245]

> barely had time to react

That just means he was faster.

His AP obviously increased as well, but it doesn't mean he jumped up a tier. He also only hit Bakugo twice with 8%.

 

[Damage3245]

Oh, by the way, this is something very minor but I don't think the explosion calced was actually the stun grenade.

I think what happened was Katsuki used the Stun Grenade first to generate a large quantity of light, in order to weaken Dark Shadow, then he actually used a proper explosion; which we can see happen on the next page and has been calced.

Doesn't really change anything in terms of the results.

 

[Mand21]

Hey, you guys know that One For All does not necessarily linearly boost Deku's speed, right? It might be inverse-squarely, like kinetic energy.

Supposes that when Deku quadruples his percentage of OFA, he's quadrupling the kinetic energy of a movement, like this thread seems to assume. That would double his speed.

It is okay to asume an 1.6x boost from 5% to 8% given the evidences, but assuming a similar boost of speed is just physically wrong and shouldn't be done unless you have evidence.

Better would be to put an "At Least" and use the kinetic energy to speed conversion unless we get a statement that he does double his speed when he doubles the percentage.

What is the value for 5% speed? You can try a calc based on that if you think it's a good value. From what I'm seeing, he scales from being blitzed by but comparable to Gran Torino who is comparable to Edgeshot who is "faster than sound", so I'll give him baseline transonic at 5% Full Cowling and work from there.

Mach 0.9*sqrt(20) = 1380.5m/s, or Mach 4.025 (Supersonic+).

 

[Damage3245]

Izuku's 5% speed is Transonic for grazing Gran Torino and fighting Stain. No hard numbers there unfortunately.

Which you pointed out anyway.. Never mind.

 

[Mand21]

So, from what I calculated he'd be Mach 1.8 at 20%, Mach 1.16 at 8% and Mach 4 at 100%.

 

[Therefir]

Okay. I don't want to be difficult but is there actually a reason for why they would scale to Tokoymai specifcially?

Because, sure, they're strong students of Class 1-A. But what is the evidence that their durability is on par with Tokoyami, as opposed to being on par with Aoyama for example.

I don't know why but I remember somewhere it was stated that Tokoyami is weak physically.

 

[Therefir]

I think it should be fine to apply the speed upgrades from Subsonic+ to Transonic, since my calc has been accepted already.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think using the multipliers is justified in this situation. It would have been a problem if the percentage increase and actual increase in power output contradicted each other, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

[Damage3245]

There's another bit of circular reasoning I've found regarding Izuku & Chisaki being City Block level.

Izuku's 100% rating is based on being supposedly superior to Yo Shindo's output, and fighting Monster Chisaki.

Monster Chisaki's rating is based on being supposedly superior to Yo Shindo's output, and fighting Izuku's 100%...

Aside from the fact that there isn't a canon source pointing out either of these characters being superior to Yo Shindo, there is still circular reasoning going on to scale them to each other.

EDIT: On top of that, the accepted result for Yo Shindo's feat is Large Building level+. Even if Izuku and Chisaki are arbitrarily superior to Yo Shindo, that doesn't necessarily make them City Block level.

I think this bit of scaling is flawed.

 

[BlackeJan]

Well 100% Deku can one shot the students so then being 8-B doesn't sound bad actually

 

[Damage3245]

Which students?

And my point is, even if 100% Izuku was City Block level, the current justifications for it are rubbish.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Nah the current scaling is fine as it is. It wouldn't make any sense for Yo Shindo to be even somewhat comparable to One For All. I mean... come on.

I'm sorry Damage, there's a difference between being the "Devil's Advocate" and just spouting nonsense.

 

[Damage3245]

Once again... No need to be rude. I don't care if being blunt is your typical personality. Just cut it out.

Anyway; I know that Yo Shindo isn't comparable to One For All overall, and I know that Izuku can go beyond that (after all Izuku is still far from All Might's power so he has a ways to go yet). I'm saying it's kinda arbitrary as far as justifications go. Unless you have a canon source that puts Izuku's 100% output beyond Yo Shindo's feat.

That also isn't an answer for Monster Chisaki scaling above Yo Shindo somehow.

And even then, that doesn't justify the circular scaling that's on the profiles.

 

[BlackeJan]

It's w/ any student tbh. Bakugou is one of the strongest in his class and he was catch unguarded by 8% and was able to react to it b/c Dekus attacks were "straightforward". Iirc Deku said that if he used 100% on the students then they would had been killed

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Alright, you kinda have a point. As that feat is Yo Shindo's absolute maximum is it not?

Izuku's 100% has been established as capable of One-Shotting all of the students. But that's obvious since they are all 9-A to 8-C in durability.

Prehaps At least High 8-C+ would be better? This is assuming a solution to that crater widening feat is not resolved, and/or scaling the precentages is not accepted.

 

[Damage3245]

I do agree that At least High-8-C+ would be better for Izuku's profile.

Regarding Chisaki's profile though, there isn't anything supporting his AP being equal to Izuku's or superior to Shindo's to be honest as far as I can tell.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

Monster Chisak could be baseline High 8-C upward scaling from that 1.81 ton feat. But 100% Izuku kicked the living hell out of Chisak, who only managed to keep going by using Overhaul to regenerate. He also got blitzed once Izuku realized he was doing this.

 

[BlackeJan]

So 100% Deku going right back to At Least High 8-C?

 

[Damage3245]

Well, we'd need more people to agree BlackeJan but that does seem to be the more reasonable figure.

And Versus, which 1.81 ton feat are you referring to? I've kind of lost track of the calcs.

 

[VersusJunkie54]

That is assuming a solution to the crater widening thing is not resolved. And the precentages scaling is rejected.

 

[Damage3245]

And if my issues regarding 5% Full Cowl aren't accepted either. Because I have real doubts about 5% Izuku being Building level right now. Small Building level is looking a lot more likely to me.

 

[Mand21]

Um... why are we acting like the calculations made here were rejected. They aren't inconsistent, so there's no reason to give Deku an "At Least" if we have a source for exact values which would even be solid. Yo Shindo's feat could be a supporting feat.

And what are your issues? We can remake the calc based on what value you prefer, to have an alternative.