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Yeah, not sure what happened, but now we're debating between two ends: 62 megatons (31 for Deku and All Might) or 138 (I think; 69 for Deku and All Might) megatons
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My Hero Academia - Scaling Revisions [One for All AP Edition]
- Thread starter Earthyboy
- Start date
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Yeah no way in hell does using 100% full cowl justify a 200x boost. It’s wrong and doesn’t make sense for the boost to be that much higher than his regular 100%. Just saying it’s strictly superior doesn’t make it any less of an inconsistency within the series or scaling.
I agree with this. Hell maybe we’ll even get a better feat in the upcoming movie that will bring some consistency with these ratings.
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What makes it an inconsistency? And what's the problem besides "it's too strong for my liking"?
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That you have no feats to support this. Atleast if the 7-A calc was right that wouldn’t be such an insane jump in strength. Nothing in the story suggests full cowl is that big of a boost… and you literally know it.
Can we stop the bs claims that people think oh Deku too strong so it’s wrong. Literally just strawmaning.
What’s the issue in waiting for the movie or other feats that can be used as support. Why do we need to have it right now what is the rush.
ÆONS
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I do not think that this is as bad as you are putting it.
Yes, the feat itself was ridiculous, plain and simple but at the same time it does not affect MHA scaling as seriously as you are implying. The Island level feat was only accomplished due do Katsuma who reinforced Deku and Bakugo and made it possible for them to do it. If he did not exist, neither would the 6-C feat. Of course it was ridiculous that Deku would get a 200x power boost or some shit like with Eri. It is not at all like Izuku could just spam this power willy-nilly on his own (he'd die, obviously.) A feat's a feat, in essence, and was appropriately explained. I see little reason to just throw it out the window.
Does this invalidate the fact that FC 100% needs more feats for us to observe. Not at all. Which was pretty much why I proposed "Up to/At most Island level" and not just Island level. It is clear that there is some variation to FC's power, and we would have to see it for ourselves.
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Who is saying to just throw it out?? I’m literally saying it would just be best to wait for more feats or Atleast the movie. Once again I’m going to ask what is exactly the rush here?
To have 99% of the verse to be 7-B or lower and 2 people 200x stronger than that is just not agreeable in my opinion. And it looks like other people/staff have the same opinion as me so Ik it’s not outlandish.
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After checking Earthyboy's calc, I believe my 153 gigatons calc is still more accurate, as Earthyboy only used the radius of the storm to calculate the speed of the dispersion, whereas my calc used the entire screen, as the storm disappears completely beyond the screen in that instant.
Earthyboy also measured the storm when it was smaller, while I measured it after it grew larger.
Earthyboy also measured the storm when it was smaller, while I measured it after it grew larger.
ÆONS
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I cannot speak for other people except myself. I do not seek to rush a scaling revision (although it has been put on hold for like a month now and plenty of blood and tears had been shed in general discussion thread of MHA so I can say that there might be people who would push this), all I want is to speak my opinions, see other people's perspectives, synthesize them, and make new conclusions as a result. And, to make it more clear, never did I disagree with you that Full Cowling 100% needs more feats. If anything I WANT Midoriya to use it more so we can see more of such power for ourselves. Nonetheless we can make do with what we have and make discussions in the meantime.
If that is how you feel after everything I said, then that is perfectly fine. Some people agree with me, others agree with you. That is valid.
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That is kind of how I feel. But I am no calc member so
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The reasoning to justify this massive boost in power is weird though, there is virtually no difference between a punch at 5% and a punch with Full Cowl 5%, and there is no reason why Full Cowl 100% should work differently. Of course a 100% punch propulsed with the speed of 100% should be stronger due to the kinetic energy, but the Two For All feat doesn't even have that.
So I agree with Damage, at the very least we should wait and see if this difference even exist.
So I agree with Damage, at the very least we should wait and see if this difference even exist.
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"A feat is a feat" you are implying outliers, hyperboles or exaggerations doesn't exist when it comes to feats. I'm not saying this is the case here. However, what's wrong with waiting for more feats to confirm it's consistency? You know, AEONs, you are completely misunderstanding our points. We are not dismissing this feat for being too strong (I could care less if they get upgraded or downgraded, I care about the consistency.) We are precisely waiting for more feats to be on a safer side rather than getting too impatient because of one feat that can potentially affect the scaling chain and multiple characters, etc etc without a legitimate justification other than "it's stronger than 100%", how much stronger exactly? is it a 2x, a 10x or a 50x? Upgrading them from 7-B to 6-C via Full Cowl is literally a 50x, which i don't recall was ever established to be a 50x multipler in the first place unless I'm missing something. Let's take Super Saiyan 1 for example, this transformation has been established very early on to be a 50x multipler, but what about Full Cowl? can you provide me a source that suggests it to be a 50x multipler.
The problem with all this is, unless we have a full grasp of how powerful full cowl is in the canon manga, we are not simply upgrading them just for assumptions and speculations, that's definitely not how the wiki works. that's why it won't hurt to be patient, because I personally think it's possible in the future but not now.
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Y’know. Why not just bring up Deku training at 20%?
With “full cowling 20%”, he kicks and sends out air pressure that rustles the leaves. Then he does 20% air flicks and it products pretty much the exact same effect, just slightly smaller in scale.
There’s also the fact All Might is practically using Full Cowling at all times, yet Deku’s normal 100% punches are generally shown to be just as strong regardless. I don’t see the logic in implying Deku’s OFA having multiplied in power within /one/ year.
With “full cowling 20%”, he kicks and sends out air pressure that rustles the leaves. Then he does 20% air flicks and it products pretty much the exact same effect, just slightly smaller in scale.
There’s also the fact All Might is practically using Full Cowling at all times, yet Deku’s normal 100% punches are generally shown to be just as strong regardless. I don’t see the logic in implying Deku’s OFA having multiplied in power within /one/ year.
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I'm pretty sure Air Pressure being ridiculously weaker than actual hits isn't something anyone is debating?
The fact that Deku's 100% smashes are only being compared to weakened, no OFA, dying All Might if anything would mean FC 100% should absolutely be stronger.
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Also, Deku's OFA grew from 100% being weakened AM level to 45% being weakened AM level. He absolutely grew its power by a lot within a year.
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But the feat is about a Full Cowling Air Pressure feat, isn’t it? That’s what the Heroes Rising feat is. The point is: finger flicks from Deku were creating similar air pressure to Full Cowling Deku when at the same %
45% is nowhere close to weakened All Might level, but a’ight. Maybe “calc wise” but definitely not lore wise. This is why Shigaraki, who’s “as strong as All Might”, had literally no trouble with him until he was using 100%.
45% is nowhere close to weakened All Might level, but a’ight. Maybe “calc wise” but definitely not lore wise. This is why Shigaraki, who’s “as strong as All Might”, had literally no trouble with him until he was using 100%.
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So air pressure is the same? What does that have to do with the heroes rising feat? You're just saying they scale above the actual calc of the feat since it was done with air pressure.
45% caught up to and took a hit from Shigaraki, and was the % he used to restrain him, and was what he was using that kept up with him midair when he was using 100% in the first place (since we know he wasn't in FC 100%).
I think you're downplaying 45% heavily, especially when you haven't said anything to suggest it should not be that strong "lore wise"
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Yes, air pressure is the same, especially when it’s being shown as a specific technique which he is practicing to use, and is a major part of the strength of OFA. Problems?
45% caught up to Shigaraki? Sure, but we don’t know the timeframe of when he began running and Shigaraki wasn’t going all out either. He restrained a /weakening/ Shigaraki, and a casual elbow made him vomit blood. He didn’t need to “keep up” with him in the air because he was spamming 100% regardless, and Shigaraki says “it’s over if I don’t focus on defence!”
Nothing 45% has ever done comes even relatively close to something like when Kamino All Might, at his WEAKEST, clashed with AFO’s ultimate quirk combination and created a shockwave which dwarfed the buildings and city block around it.
45% caught up to Shigaraki? Sure, but we don’t know the timeframe of when he began running and Shigaraki wasn’t going all out either. He restrained a /weakening/ Shigaraki, and a casual elbow made him vomit blood. He didn’t need to “keep up” with him in the air because he was spamming 100% regardless, and Shigaraki says “it’s over if I don’t focus on defence!”
Nothing 45% has ever done comes even relatively close to something like when Kamino All Might, at his WEAKEST, clashed with AFO’s ultimate quirk combination and created a shockwave which dwarfed the buildings and city block around it.
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I don't understand your air pressure point right now. No duh air pressure is the same. It's just far weaker than actual hits. I don't quite get what you're trying to say.
Why would Shigaraki not be running hard when his goal was to kill Eraserhead who was nulling his quirks? And can you quantify how much he was weakening considering he was still dodging Endeavor and Deku even noted he was faster? At best you can claim that Shigaraki got weaker during Deku restraining him after he gut checked him, not after, as there is nothing to suggest that other than him saying he's running out of steam after punching through Ryukyu's hand, then getting immediately jumped on by Deku. No way he got that much weaker in that short a timeframe, especially considering that he outspeeds Endeavor again when he propels himself away from Deku. He was literally going Plus Ultra, aka beyond his limits and better than before.
Except there were clear moments where Deku wasn't using 100% and Shigaraki could perceive him, like after the first kick when he gets behind Shigaraki, where if he was astronomically weaker and slower than Shigaraki, as you are claiming, that Shigaraki could've reacted to him, but didn't in time. He's not using 100% in his legs after he gets past Shigaraki in that instant, he's charging it on his arm, yet Shigaraki can barely raise his arm to defend himself before he's getting punched again, despite only Deku's arm being amped, not his legs which he moves with.
And nothing Shigaraki, or USJ Nomu, or Hood, or literally any other top tier character has done is comparable to that. AOE fallacy.
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Also, hitting him hard enough that he spits up blood, only for Deku to essentially say "**** off" and tighten his grip without going literally anywhere or having his fighting capabilities hampered in anyway, is a durability feat, not an antifeat. Shigaraki failed to get him off.
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The point is that FULL COWLING KICK AIR PRESSURE and ONLY IN THE FINGERS AIR PRESSURE had pretty much the /exact/ same result. The full cowling kick wasn’t 200x more powerful.
He was still weakening, and Deku barely, if straight up does not, scale to him. A casual elbow made him vomit blood. If you punched someone in the stomach that is equal in strength to you, or simply half your strength, that wouldn’t happen. At least, not in the capacity that Deku vomited in.
I thought Deku was using 100% in his legs as well? To fly around at massive speed and also cancel out his own momentum so he doesn’t fly away. “Deku’s using his legs and Air Force to negate the blowback“, as Bakugo put it. Deku’s using 100% all over the place, and also yanking him around with Blackwhip, and Shigaraki is focusing on DEFENCE.
That simply means that feat is >>>>> those characters. It’s almost like All Might and AFO are, gasp, the toppest tiers and no one ever in the lore has ever been stated to be on their level, and it’s only this single site that says otherwise due to one statement from someone on the bad guy’s side.
He was still weakening, and Deku barely, if straight up does not, scale to him. A casual elbow made him vomit blood. If you punched someone in the stomach that is equal in strength to you, or simply half your strength, that wouldn’t happen. At least, not in the capacity that Deku vomited in.
I thought Deku was using 100% in his legs as well? To fly around at massive speed and also cancel out his own momentum so he doesn’t fly away. “Deku’s using his legs and Air Force to negate the blowback“, as Bakugo put it. Deku’s using 100% all over the place, and also yanking him around with Blackwhip, and Shigaraki is focusing on DEFENCE.
That simply means that feat is >>>>> those characters. It’s almost like All Might and AFO are, gasp, the toppest tiers and no one ever in the lore has ever been stated to be on their level, and it’s only this single site that says otherwise due to one statement from someone on the bad guy’s side.
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Ah, you're trying to use Air Pressure to say full cowl and no cowl are the exact same strength. That's simply incorrect, as different body parts produce higher amounts of air pressure at 100%.
Compare Deku's finger flicks to his punch at the sports festival vs Todoroki. They even note that his full punch was stronger than the flicks. So I fully disagree that finger flicks are the same as actual kicks or punches, that's my fault for misunderstanding your point.
Deku coughing up blood, gritting his teeth, not moving in the slightest, and instead just going even harder with restraining Shigaraki is a durability feat.
In fact, if you're going to be ridiculous and try to apply physics or biology, getting hit in the stomach shouldn't have made him cough up blood regardless, it should've been straight vomit from his stomach. Coughing up blood from a strong hit is literally an anime only thing, there is no logical way to say Shigaraki is anything more than "stronger than him" from that interaction, and even then, by anime standards, Deku took that hit ridiculously well.
In the example I described, he would have only had 100% in his arm, not his legs, when he made contact with Shigaraki. If he had 100% all throughout his body, he would've been using FC 100%, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Bakugo made that comment deeper into the fight when Deku is actively using 100% in his limbs consistently, not right after he kicks Shigaraki and then switches to his arms.
USJ Nomu is weaker than Kamino AFO? Hood is weaker than Kamino AFO who is = USJ Nomu who Hood is stated, by lore, to be stronger than? Shigaraki who is by lore and statements as strong as All Might is weaker than All Might? Your contradicting actual lore to fit in your own stance that "AFO and AM untouchable" when that isn't true at all. You've bought into the Prime AM hype and are applying it to weaker AM.
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"Blood from the Mouth" is a common anime trope, using it as if Shigaraki literally did as much damage as required to make Deku cough up blood is asinine and requires actual biological evidence of Deku's upper intestines and stomach being ruptured.
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Going to bed, will be back in like 10 hours
ÆONS
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I am so sorry for you.
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No shit, the strongest feat in the series doesn’t have feats like it. That’s how calcs work, it’s of the strongest feats you find. Your argument is yet another one of incredulity, and if your only reasoning is that it’s a big jump (especially when it doesn’t actually cause scaling issues), well that is nowhere near enough to start trying to call “outlier!”
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…. Can we stop screaming the ******* argument of incredulity. I swear to god it’s like if Deku had a 3-A feat y’all still wouldn’t call it an outlier.
If your just going to continue to strawman me. I’m not replying all your getting from my arguments is “Deku did a feat to strong so it’s wrong”
If your just going to continue to strawman me. I’m not replying all your getting from my arguments is “Deku did a feat to strong so it’s wrong”
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I agree with josh
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What is your argument, then? Because to me it sounds like the issue is “too strong.” If it’s about not having other feats like this, again that’s how calcs in general often work. You’re getting the strongest feats you find because you’re not always gonna have someone casually throwing around 6-C feats.
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It’s about full cowl being a 200x boost to justify it not being an outlier. No way can you honestly believe full cowl has been portrayed as that big of a boost.
so you honestly want me to believe full cowl boosts Deku so much he can go from performing 7-B feats to 6-C feats bc it’s portrayed as superior to regular 100% yeah I just don’t agree with that logic the boost is not portrayed as being sooooo significantly stronger than regular 100%
It would be a different story if we had more supporting feats or a better justification for the jump in power.
so you honestly want me to believe full cowl boosts Deku so much he can go from performing 7-B feats to 6-C feats bc it’s portrayed as superior to regular 100% yeah I just don’t agree with that logic the boost is not portrayed as being sooooo significantly stronger than regular 100%
It would be a different story if we had more supporting feats or a better justification for the jump in power.
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Couldn’t have said it better dawgz
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Well not that I agree with 6-C but this is a real thing and it's a lame reason to deny an upgrade(appeal to incredulity), considering the majority of verses on the wiki scale characters from 1 or 2 feats that would statistically be above everything in the verse, hell we have right now popular verses that jump from tier 6 to tier 5 and even tier 3 yet going from a Mid tier 7 to low tier 6 is insanity, and the argument saying "YOU BELIEVE IN SUCH LE LARGE MULTIPLIER" is garbage" because your arbitrary enforcing rules onto a series that doesn't care about Multipliers outside of giving the Audience vague numbers to Visualize power levels, because if this is the scale you want to use your going to have a hard time justifying anyone.
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Didn’t u know? people nowadays just want upgrades instead of accuracy
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Again, the issue isn't just "number is too big/too strong" this feat is coming from an unquantifiable multipler, whose true strength is still unknown for the knowledgeable people and passionate fans who actively read the manga, to make the situation more confusing the only 6-C feat is from a canon movie, not from the Anime and the Manga, so we can confirm the consistency of the 6-C feat, because that's the reason why most feats in general are rejected or dismissed in the first place, you don't need to bring up other verses to justify this.
Since most verses and their knowledgeable debaters were forced to justify unquantifiable multipler claims too, heck if I were to use an example; The Kaikon 50x multipler is still denied and also most other I know.
The thing here is, most of us would have been fine with it if we knew from the beginning that Full Cowl 100% is a 50x multipler or it was established very early on. The fact that this is a debate proves my point, we are literally assuming things and how strong it is. Saying "it's stronger than 100%" is again not a legitimate justification, you'll have to be more specific than that. Because just like every verse they had tons of evidence of suggesting "X" and "Z" to be a 3x Multipler and needed their multipler to be accepted aka how it always works here.
Allow me to clarify one thing, I don't care if they get upgraded or downgraded, but If they upgraded simply because "But the others verses did the same!!" Sorry I really have to disagree with that.
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Good thing my comment never addressed this and was talking specifically about the appeal to incredulity, I even go as far as to say that I don't agree with the 6-C upgrade.
This is absolute nonsense, there is no multiplier at all in the series as proven by the fact if you wanted to be objectively measure every feat they don't scale to what they would be based on the % used, we are retroactively creating a multiplier to create a false problem. and this Issue is going to get inevitably worse when characters pull off more Impressive feats as the series goes on with less % than they are using now.
Nobody argued this, stop attacking a strawman, the reason I mentioned the other verses was a critique on the suspension of disbelief that people will afford certain series based on vapid arguments, if I wanted to appeal to a certain series then I would have mentioned it but I didn't because im aware every series has its own context. In any case, this type of argumentation can easily be used to dismiss arguments that you're presenting regarding Multipliers.
Bruh
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Even if we use Earth's 31 megaton calc for 30/45%, I think we should put war arc 100% at 7B+, possibly borderline 7A. Since a 2-4X multiplier for a 55% increase isn't that farfetch considering we had bigger jump from much smaller percentage increase. This number could possibly be higher since even with his regen and deku's arm getting ever increasingly more broken, shigaraki was still getting his ass kicked
