My Hero Academia General Discussion Thread #18

[Kingofwolves999]

READ PEOPLE, READ

 

[Bruh]

Yeah I don't think shigaraki even at 100% will have the same physical capability as prime AM but it would make sense if he's stronger than usj or bos AM, maybe at least comparable since he's only at 75% rn

 

[Metalballrun]

But why the heck would they draw USJ Nomu in the first place if he’s supposed to be some sort of Outlier?

Maybe because the USJ Nomu is the most recognizable black nomu?
And it is an outlier, nothing supposed about it. Unless you're telling me that all black nomus like the one at Hosu and in Jaku are on All Might level of strength.

The USJ Nomu is special in that it was specifically made to be as strong as All Might. Garaki saying something along the lines of "after all we did to make it as strong as All Might" highly suggests that he can't just mass produce and create them willy-nilly either.

I imagine it was easier to accept them scaling above the USJ Nomu.

So do you think the High ends are stronger than the USJ Nomu or the other way around?

Like I said, I'm neutral to the topic either way. And I lean on the argument that there probably isn't much of a gap between them.

 

[Cyberblader90]

after what happened today, Chapter 321 was a blessing.

This page is beautiful

 

[Nullflowerblush]

lmao

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I mean, the only truly massive difference should be Prime All Might who is laughably above everyone else.

Only hint of Prime AM we have is current Deku’s 100% since his speed is almost there so his AP should be too.

I’m sorry but what makes Faux 100% on par with Prime AM?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

READ PEOPLE, READ

I already read it before I came here lol

 

[Gitagon]

Well like I said when this was being newly discussed, Garaki never explicitly stated that the High Ends were stronger than USJ.
But the visual he used had USJ Nomu represent the black nomus, so we assumed that it meant the High Ends were stronger.

I suggested that it might not be the case as the USJ Nomu was clearly an outlier amongst black nomus but we went with HE>USJ Nomu anyways.
My stance with the entire thing has always been neutral.

Yeah, a lot of people were insistent on scaling High-ends above USJ Nomu based on that one image and that's where all this circular scaling comes from.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I’m sorry but what makes Faux 100% on par with Prime AM?

It’s the fastest speed feat he has and he compares it to All Might doing something similar. Also he said that what he’s capable of is “on par with you at 100 percent, and with no recoil to boot” to AM.

So at the least, Deku thinks he’s there. Whether he’s lying to himself or correct is unknown.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I’m sorry but what makes Faux 100% on par with Prime AM?

Izuku stated: "What I'm capable of now is on par with you at 100 Percent, and no recoil to boot."

And Izuku compared his speed at Faux 100% to All Might. So All Might scales to Faux 100%, but we decided that Prime All Might only was the best bet since it'd contradict some scaling. If USJ All Might scaled, that mean Shigaraki scales and that brings problems with the scaling.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Yeah, a lot of people were insistent on scaling High-ends above USJ Nomu based on that one image and that's where all this circular scaling comes from.

There is no circular scaling, I think your confusing that with something else.

Either way, they scale to the USJ Nomu and All Might based on Endeavor and Aizawa's statements.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Yeah, a lot of people were insistent on scaling High-ends above USJ Nomu based on that one image and that's where all this circular scaling comes from.

It’s not even circular though. It’s just a question of “where is Shigaraki on the scale if X” which has no easy answer cause there are in story conflicting view points on his strength.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

It’s the fastest speed feat he has and he compares it to All Might doing something similar. Also he said that what he’s capable of is “on par with you at 100 percent, and with no recoil to boot” to AM.

So at the least, Deku thinks he’s there. Whether he’s lying to himself or correct is unknown.

That’s on the lines of Deku’s previous statements of his 100% being the same as AM’s power. I thought it’s just like BoS AM especially since Deku has no clue what Prime AM was capable of let alone his 100% speed that he doesn’t even use in most situations.

 

[Gitagon]

I think Shigaraki is about equal to them, or at least equal to the All Might they’re scaling to. So yes, he might be PHYSICALLY slightly weaker.

We don’t know which All Might the Doctor is referring to when he says Shigaraki isn’t “quite on par.”

But we do know that Endeavor and Aizawa are comparing him, bare minimum, to USJ All Might, possibly higher.

I have to ask, what do you think would be the effect of Mirko's kick on Shigaraki or even USJ & Kamino All Might?

Cause we know unless the High-ends use defensive quirks like the bone armor quirk, her kicks go right through them like butter.

Her kicks do way more damage to High-ends than even Deku's 2 100% punches did to a quirkless Shigaraki.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Izuku stated: "What I'm capable of now is on par with you at 100 Percent, and no recoil to boot."

And Izuku compared his speed at Faux 100% to All Might. So All Might scales to Faux 100%, but we decided that Prime All Might only was the best bet since it'd contradict some scaling. If USJ All Might scaled, that mean Shigaraki scales and that brings problems with the scaling.

By problems I’m guessing it’s like MHS Endeavor and others?

 

[Gitagon]

It’s not even circular though. It’s just a question of “where is Shigaraki on the scale if X” which has no easy answer cause there are in story conflicting view points on his strength.

All I'm saying is that if quirkless Shigaraki is = or weaker than High-ends then someone like Mirko would be able to one-shot him and literally tear him apart as long as he doesn't have quirks to fall back on the same way she did to the High-ends before they started using their quirks.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Suggestion Time:

Maybe since the Hospital High-Ends didn't get a chance to stabilize, their enhancements weren't at their best. The Near High-Ends were stated to be on par with Hood in strength by Mirio, them being stronger than the Hospital High-Ends wouldn't be non sensical since they had been awake for almost an 1 hour.

Over thirty minutes according to Burnin, who even stated the Near High-Ends were getting more coordinated as time went on. Which shows they were improving in someway. Them being Near High-Ends came for their lacking intelligence, while Garaki did say they were rather strong still.

While the Hospital High-Ends were only awake for around 5 minutes, according to Endeavor when they arrived it's almost been 5 minutes since Mirko last contacted them.

I'd suggest putting Mirko, Hospital High-Ends, and Crust at Unknown for the time being. Until we get some better feats from them.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Suggestion Time:

Maybe since the Hospital High-Ends didn't get a chance to stabilize, their enhancements weren't at their best. The Near High-Ends were stated to be on par with Hood in strength by Mirio, them being stronger than the Hospital High-Ends wouldn't be non sensical since they had been awake for almost an 1 hour.

Over thirty minutes according to Burnin, who even stated the Near High-Ends were getting more coordinated as time went on. Which shows they were improving in someway. Them being Near High-Ends came for their lacking intelligence, while Garaki did say they were rather strong still.

While the Hospital High-Ends were only awake for around 5 minutes, according to Endeavor when they arrived it's almost been 5 minutes since Mirko last contacted them.

I'd suggest putting Mirko, Hospital High-Ends, and Crust at Unknown for the time being. Until we get some better feats from them.

We know the stabilisation isn’t a strength buff or even speed it’s just mental stuff and coordination. The hospital High Ends didn’t suddenly hit harder if anything at best they just seemed to get better at reading Mirko’s moves. We even see she can still mutilate them and dodge them.

Burnin also only cites coordination going up rather than power or speed.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Do we have a statement that says their strength doesn't increase, and that it's only mental?

 

[Metalballrun]

Well we don't have statement for strength increase either.

We do know that within 5 minutes the HHE stabilized enough that their eyes looked more alive and Mirko couldn't hit them anymore IIRC.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Do we have a statement that says their strength doesn't increase, and that it's only mental?

Mirko describes their stabilisation as their eyes look awake. Burnin says they’re improving in coordination. We never get anything concrete but I’m sure Mirko would’ve noticed if she was doing less damage, or their hits hurt more.

The dynamic in stats between Mirko and the HE never changes as the fight goes on. She can tear through them and they can harm her. Only change was she couldn’t land anymore hits.

Crust is also able to cut them through out the whole battle.

 

[Gitagon]

Suggestion Time:

Maybe since the Hospital High-Ends didn't get a chance to stabilize, their enhancements weren't at their best. The Near High-Ends were stated to be on par with Hood in strength by Mirio, them being stronger than the Hospital High-Ends wouldn't be non sensical since they had been awake for almost an 1 hour.

Over thirty minutes according to Burnin, who even stated the Near High-Ends were getting more coordinated as time went on. Which shows they were improving in someway. Them being Near High-Ends came for their lacking intelligence, while Garaki did say they were rather strong still.

While the Hospital High-Ends were only awake for around 5 minutes, according to Endeavor when they arrived it's almost been 5 minutes since Mirko last contacted them.

I'd suggest putting Mirko, Hospital High-Ends, and Crust at Unknown for the time being. Until we get some better feats from them.

The thing is that High-end physical capabilities, in this case strength & durability are due to biological modification. It is permanent unlike quirks which can be turned on and off.

So while being unprepared or not ready should affect their speed, intelligence and maybe even strength, I don't see how it would lower their durability. Even ordinary humans can't lower their durability, maybe stamina or endurance but not durability.

It's kinda the same thing for current Shigaraki. Whether he's asleep or awake or even if he died, his corpse should still be bulletproof if he has indeed been biologically modified to a cellular level.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Do we have a statement that says their strength doesn't increase, and that it's only mental?

From what we know, ONLY coordination/skill is what has gone up the longer High Ends are out of their tube.

Mirko says she isn’t landing hits anymore because they seem more “awake.”

Burnin notes that they have been getting more coordinated as the heroes have fought them.

We don’t have any confirmation or de-confirmation that they actually, physically get stronger or more durable or faster.

 

[Metalballrun]

I'll probably take a long time before we get conclusive feats for them since only Near High Ends remain, Crust is dead, so we'll have to wait for Mirko to do anything, so not sure about putting them at unknown.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Just a suggestion, not meant to be my definitive answer. Mostly I'm trying to gauge what everyone thinks about something.

Gitagon, how would you revise the scaling if you could? You seem to have some problems with the current reasoning.

 

[Gitagon]

Instead of cooking up more stuff for Mirko or hospital High-ends why not just admit the obvious. There is no reason to keep forcing the High-ends > USJ Nomu at this point when its clearly what throws this entire thing out of wack.

Prime All Might & Prime AFO >>> BOS All Might, USJ Nomu, Current Shigaraki > or = Kamino All Might & AFO >> High-ends, Endeavor, Mirko, Crust, basically all the strongest top 10 heroes.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Gitagon did make a great point though. Mirko can tear through Shigaraki better than or on par with 100% Deku based on the current scaling.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Why such a massive difference?

Endeavor took a hit from Shigaraki who is at least Kamino All Might level or higher, and High-Ends scale to Endeavor. Hood injured him severely so he scales to Endeavor's durability. And the Near High-End are stated to be equal to Hood in strength, which means the Hosptial High-Ends should be comparable to Hood as well.

Since it makes very little sense for them to be vastly weaker than the Near High-Ends.

I've already explain the problems with Shigaraki being capable of one shotting Endeavor with a finger flick, he cannot have been holding back by thousands of times so Endeavor can't go back to 8-A.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Instead of cooking up more stuff for Mirko or hospital High-ends why not just admit the obvious. There is no reason to keep forcing the High-ends > USJ Nomu at this point when its clearly what throws this entire thing out of wack.

Prime All Might & Prime AFO >>> BOS All Might, USJ Nomu, Current Shigaraki > or = Kamino All Might & AFO >> High-ends, Endeavor, Mirko, Crust, basically the strongest top 10 heroes.

Except we’re not forcing the issue, we’re literally following what the doctor, who made all the Nomu, is saying, and what is directly on panel.

The issue is not stemming from High Ends > Nomu, that doesn’t matter to anything.

The issue is Mirko tearing through High Ends. That is where the issue is stemming from, and it’s what everyone agrees to be problematic, as there is no possible way the High Ends are weaker than USJ Nomu based on our current information BESIDES that feat.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Mirko is the weird outlier here that is coming out of nowhere and one shotting AM tier enemies, that’s not a problem for the High Ends or USJ Nomu.

 

[Gitagon]

Just a suggestion, not meant to be my definitive answer. Mostly I'm trying to gauge what everyone thinks about something.

Gitagon, how would you revise the scaling if you could? You seem to have some problems with the current reasoning.

I wouldn't use that one image of USJ Nomu to scale High-ends above him. Personally I believe USJ Nomu was used for that cause he is the most recognizable Black Nomu.

I feel MHA scaling should be or is a clear straight line not a loop. And on no instance should characters like Endeavor or Mirko be scaled anywhere near or even in this case, above any version of All Might or AFO, not even Kamino All Might.

 

[Gitagon]

Except we’re not forcing the issue, we’re literally following what the doctor, who made all the Nomu, is saying, and what is directly on panel.

The issue is not stemming from High Ends > Nomu, that doesn’t matter to anything.

The issue is Mirko tearing through High Ends. That is where the issue is stemming from, and it’s what everyone agrees to be problematic, as there is no possible way the High Ends are weaker than USJ Nomu based on our current information BESIDES that feat.

That one image had thrown everything out of loop. It's is clearly the problem. I always had a problem with literally every character being scaled near any version of All Might even Kamino, when narratively he is far above everyone else even at his weakest.

The gap between any version of All Might and Endeavor in the story is extremely humongous but here it is treated as a joke.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Endeavor took a direct hit from Shigaraki, and afterward stated he was as strong as All Might. That's at least Kamino All Might level, since Endeavor did see how strong he was.

How do you argue against this? Shigaraki holding back thousands of times is absurd, as he could've killed Endeavor with a finger flick. He didn't want Endeavor to live, he attempted to instantly kill him with decay the moment the fight started, and tried to use it again.

I don't see why being distracted by OFA would make him lower his output, the difference is too high. Shigaraki would have to purposely lower his strength in order to not one shot Endeavor into bloody chucks if his dura was still 8-A.

Hood scales to Endeavor's Dura, Near High-Ends scale to Hood, Hospital High-Ends scale to Near High-Ends, and Mirko scales to Hospital High-Ends.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I wouldn't use that one image of USJ Nomu to scale High-ends above him. Personally I believe USJ Nomu was used for that cause he is the most recognizable Black Nomu.

I feel MHA scaling should be or is a clear straight line not a loop. And on no instance should characters like Endeavor or Mirko be scaled anywhere near or even in this case, above any version of All Might or AFO, not even Kamino All Might.

But why though? That image holds more weight than just arbitrarily deciding “x is stronger than y because they seem to be stronger.” Kamino All Might and AFO literally suck compared to their Prime versions, and Endeavor was actively reacting to and prompting Air Cannons from AFO without even using flashfire.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

That one image had thrown everything out of loop. It's is clearly the problem. I always had a problem with literally every character being scaled near any version of All Might even Kamino, when narratively he is far above everyone else even at his weakest.

The gap between any version of All Might and Endeavor in the story is extremely humongous but here it is treated as a joke.

Ridiculously false. Prove that a gap exists between the two of that level?

THE ONLY ALL MIGHT that has a massive gap over everyone is Prime All Might.

NO ONE knew he was as weak as he was.

Claiming they shouldn’t scale to his weakened form because of the mythological strength of his prime is not logical.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

PLW screwed the scaling sideways.

 

[Gitagon]

Striking is one thing, but the durability aspect has to be explained.

People can hold back their striking power or even fail to bring out the max effect of their strikes. But you cannot lower your own durability. Whether it is Shigaraki or the Nomus their durability is biological and fixed. They can get faster or stronger as they fight, even humans do that after warming up, but durability is the same whether you are asleep, awake or even recently dead.

This is the main thing that should be considered here. Is Shigaraki as durable as High-ends, is he less durable or similarly durable.

Any character could have been holding back their strength and as for Hood vs Endeavor, Hood was using his biological strength + like 3 more strength enhancing quirks while Shigaraki was quirkless.

Either way if people think High-ends > Shigaraki that means Shigaraki is less durable than them.

They got mauled by Mirko so will the same happen to Shigaraki?

Shigaraki ate 2 100% punches from Deku without Regen and while he took great damage, it's nothing compared to being cut apart like butter.

And even with Regen, 100% hits didn't tear him apart. High-ends even with Regen were torn up like pure butter by Mirko.

And we have no indication that Shigaraki's Regen is somehow better than theirs. So is Mirko now > 100% OFA Deku which people here scale to Prime Alp Might...

So Mirko > Prime All Might?

 

[TheRustyOne]

Considering Endeavor's statement, Aizawa thinking he's like a perfect Nomu, and the fact he can overpower 45% of OFA.

Shigaraki is without a doubt All Might level in someway, and Endeavor's durability scales to him.

We have to go by what was stated, and Shigaraki being this level isn't contradicted by anything. And all of the All Might statements about his superiority by Endeavor, came from All Might's Prime. Kamino All Might is likely vastly weaker than his Prime self, even USJ All Might is a good deal weaker.

"Yep I'm slowing down. In my heyday, five of those punches would've been enough. But that was over 300 hits just now."

No one noticed All Might's declining strength, even All Might himself didn't notice until the USJ fight. That's because he's never been pushed to his limit after his fight with AFO. And he was getting even weaker after giving OFA to Izuku, something he did notice rather quickly.

Which means the decrease his power from giving Izuku OFA, was faster than the injure he received from AFO.

 

[Bruh]

I definitely think shigaraki scale above hood at least in term of durability for a few reasons. Shigaraki's arm got caught and burned by a prominent burn while hood's entire body got vaporized, shigaraki took a vanishing fist while a jet burn torn apart hood's arm and punched through his torso. Both later took a weakened endeavor prominent burn, shigaraki survived despite his failing, injured body and slowing regeneration while hood died. In term of AP ? Idk, both knock down endeavor in their fight, hood with a slash across the face and shigaraki with a punch. And the fact that it took multiple pro heroes including aizawa, deku and endeavor himself to took down a mostly quirkless shigaraki whose body and regeneration is constantly failing should logically and narratively put shigaraki above hood who got killed by endeavor + hawks

 

[Gitagon]

MHA scaling has always been obvious but even with how many times the story reiterates how far above everyone else any version of All Might is, some fellows are obsessed with trying to bring everyone up to his level.

And that single USJ Nomu image is all was needed as a justification to literally twist the linear MHA scaling into the loop it currently is.