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My favourite servant vs one of my favourite characters.

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Karna is superior in skill to every single one of his brothers, he also essentially solo'd the Kurukshetra war, only losing due to willingly giving up his armor, refusing to fight Arjuna and being betrayed by his own charioteer. As seen during apocrypha he is either equal to or superior to Siegfried skill wise during their cqc battles.

Also Karna would throw out Vasavi Shakti if Itachi either blocks or tanks a brahmastra kundala, which he doesn't wait long before throwing out seen during his fight with Sieg
 
VS is not undodgeable and Itachi is great with forcing people into fighting clones and stuff mid battle, he can even use substitution with his crows.

And if Karna uses VS from what I can tell he loses his armour making him vulnerable. It also appears to have a very long charge up time in every scenaria giving Itachi time to build up some sort of defense against it.
 
For all intents and purposes Vasavi Shakti is very undodgable.

That's why instead of running Sieg had to spam Balmung to try to hold it back, which failed horribly, the aoe of VS is also absurd Itachi is not dodging it

He does indeed lose his armor but the charge time is not long at all. He literally summons the spear, everything around him melts from the heat of the spear, he says a few words and shoots off the blast

There is no defense itachi can pull up against a high 3-A or low 2-C blast that inflicts the concept of extinction and has an aoe as big as it has been shown to have

In addition Karna's passive abilities should help him realize if Itachi switches with a clone
 
That is more than enought time for Itachi to set up a crow clone in his place to tank the blast. In fact Itachi could be fighting with a clone the entire time as long as it is not put down.

I dont see anything that lets him know that Itachi is a clone? substitutions trick even the sharingan.
 
The fight starts with the real Itachi so Karna would be able to notice him switching with a clone during the fight.

Even if we say Itachi manages to switch with a clone before being hit by the extinction spear, he would not be able to go far enough to avoid it and would still die along with the clone.
 
The fight starts with the real Itachi yes and Itachi can switch with a clone at any point. I dont see how Karna woud notice when they start 4km away from each other.

Yeah the clone just ha to be the one in the fight in the first place, the aoe is not that big. as long as Itachi himself was not quite in the fight.
 
Karna can quite easily see over 4km so that's not an issue, he also would quite literally just be able to tell it's a clone and not the real itachi, itachi's clones, unlike Madara's, are also unable to use the susanoo from what we have seen.

The activation of vs alone would melt everything within a pretty good range, including the ground under itachi's feat which would make it pretty hard to stand condiseing the floor literally becomes lava

Have you seen vasavi shakti being fired off in anything besides fgo, in fgo it just seems like a tiny beam but even that beam is pretty massive as shown in other works, also again, im pretty sure the concept of extinction part should be undodgable otherwise the spear would be pretty bad at killing Sefar and the gods.
 
Paul Frank said:
Karna can quite easily see over 4km so that's not an issue, he also would quite literally just be able to tell it's a clone and not the real itachi, itachi's clones, unlike Madara's, are also unable to use the susanoo from what we have seen.

The activation of vs alone would melt everything within a pretty good range, including the ground under itachi's feat which would make it pretty hard to stand condiseing the floor literally becomes lava

Have you seen vasavi shakti being fired off in anything besides fgo, in fgo it just seems like a tiny beam but even that beam is pretty massive as shown in other works, also again, im pretty sure the concept of extinction part should be undodgable otherwise the spear would be pretty bad at killing Sefar and the gods.
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Clones are able to use whatever jutsu the owner can, Itachi's is an improvement of the shadow clone jutsu.

I ave seen it being fired in all those gifs. No the concept of extinction just sounds like EE dont see what that has to do with making it undodgeable.
 
It's imposing the concept it's not just the potency

Madara is the only person who has showcased the ability to have clones use the Susanoo and that was with a wood clone, no time has Itachi used the susanoo with a clone even when it would be useful
 
Paul Frank said:
It's imposing the concept it's not just the potency
Madara is the only person who has showcased the ability to have clones use the Susanoo and that was with a wood clone, no time has Itachi used the susanoo with a clone even when it would be useful
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Yes but it also has nothing to do with dodging the attack it self. Unless it has the concpet of being undodgebale or the concept of homing or something.

clones in general have always been able to use the abilites of users, like all of them including ones that use your own soul as forfeit like the death reaper seal apparently.

also:http://*****************/read-online/Naruto-chapter-552-page-2.html

Itachi can use the susanoo seperate to himself.
 
Using the Susanoo sperate from himself doesn't really help or mean that clones can use it. Again, there are a few times where Itachi would have benefited from using the susano with his clones but he never did. The only person who has that feat is Madara with wood clones.
 
Paul Frank said:
Using the Susanoo sperate from himself doesn't really help or mean that clones can use it. Again, there are a few times where Itachi would have benefited from using the susano with his clones but he never did. The only person who has that feat is Madara with wood clones.
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You say that but Itachi has not actually lost a fight as much as I can remember (at least not one he does not want to lose like vs sasuke) so I dont see how his clones using them would have benefitted more than his fights have gone. And Madara only did that to toy with the kage. Itachi's clones have used his other abilities fine, susanoo is no different since his clones also have his MS.
 
Madara's clones were also wood clones which are superior to most other clones in literally every way

Itachi could have ended several fights much quicker if he just used his Susanoo on his clones.

Also even if he could "hypothetically" do this, he has never done it before so we can't say he would do it in character. That's the same reason in a Madara match we can't say he just creates a hundred shadow clones that all make wood clones that all make shadow clones and creates an infinite army.
 
Paul Frank said:
Madara's clones were also wood clones which are superior to most other clones in literally every way
Itachi could have ended several fights much quicker if he just used his Susanoo on his clones.

Also even if he could "hypothetically" do this, he has never done it before so we can't say he would do it in character. That's the same reason in a Madara match we can't say he just creates a hundred shadow clones that all make wood clones that all make shadow clones and creates an infinite army.
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Itachi clones again are also improved clones wood clones are improvements to shadow clones yeah but we dont know how they stack up to crow clones.

Or maybe he can only put up 1 susnaoo at a time. whether it is a clone or him, but clones have all the abilities of a user. That is a fact.

He would if he sends his clone out to fight. Except what you did was massively escalate the madara situation lol. I am simply saying that Itachi can make 1 clone use the susanoo. Its nothing that special.
 
Ehh I'd assume wood clones were superior

If he could only have 1 susanoo up at a time that doesn't help him in this fight at all

He has never done that before though so we can't say he would do it in character.

Also again Karna would be able to see if Itachi switches with a clone, since he is pretty intuitive and he could tell if his opponent was a clone too.
 
Paul Frank said:
Ehh I'd assume wood clones were superior
If he could only have 1 susanoo up at a time that doesn't help him in this fight at all

He has never done that before though so we can't say he would do it in character.

Also again Karna would be able to see if Itachi switches with a clone, since he is pretty intuitive and he could tell if his opponent was a clone too.
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Literally nothing states that.

My point is his one clone is comaprable to him and can fight in his place. He normally uses a clone near the start in his place anyway.

Dude is a genius, and his clones would not disppear against someone below their power, if he can make it stick around he would.

Again it fools even people with sharingan and extremely perseptive people like kakashi, substitution and clone jutsus should not be underestimated there is nearly 0 tell for when thye use it.
 
Fooling people with the Sharingan is due to the chakra looking relatively similar, Karna isn't looking at the chakra he is looking into the nature of the target themselves. Alot of skill feats in Naruto don't really compare to ones in fate and I'm pretty sure Itachi hasn't fooled someone as skilled as Karna.

He was able to see through Indra's trick and disguise, while no one else could, when he tried to take his armor.

The clones of Itachi would just die along with the real Itachi after vs is thrown
 
Paul Frank said:
Fooling people with the Sharingan is due to the chakra looking relatively similar, Karna isn't looking at the chakra he is looking into the nature of the target themselves. Alot of skill feats in Naruto don't really compare to ones in fate and I'm pretty sure Itachi hasn't fooled someone as skilled as Karna.
He was able to see through Indra's trick and disguise, while no one else could, when he tried to take his armor.

The clones of Itachi would just die along with the real Itachi after vs is thrown
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The nature of lones are exactly the same as their makers. The whole skill thing is both debatable and subjective. People in Naruto's world are used to and always looks out for tricks and disguises so it is more impressive there personally to be able to fool ninja.

not if he is far enough away, we know he can use clones from several kilometers away and from what I can tell with all the gifs VS aoe is not that big.
 
I don't think the skill thing is all that debatable

The nature of the clones is not the same, the real itachi doesn't poof away into crows when beaten for instance. Karna can see the true nature of people who have skills such as uncrowded martial arts or are hidden like Shirou Kotomine.

Unless Itachi uses a clone the instant the fight starts at 4km, somehow does so and sends out the clone before Karna notices, and then the real Itachi turns around and books it the other direction he would be hit.

The activation alone turns the entire surrounding battlefield in Apocrypha, into magma, which would definitely make it harder for Itachi to run away even if he was able to just take a dip in magma.

The aoe in fgo is of course going to look small since it has to fit on a phone screen, even Enuma Elish looks like a small aoe in that game. The Apocrypha one is a bit more accurate but still not it's full aoe since Astolfo came in and saved the day. The fate extra ones and fgo arcades ones also show it having a decent sized aoe.

Also by its sheer stats, VS has more range and aoe than brahmastra and brahmastra kundala, not sure why it's listed as anti army on the profile since that isn't really a range.

Also why are we assuming Itachi would try to dodge it. If he sees he can block or tank Brahmastra kundala there is no indication vs would instantly kill him, he could just try to block it again.
 
It really is

None of this means anything, the clones are an exact copy of the user with the only difference being their max mana which depends on how many clones the person uses. Crows clones are even better in every regard than shadow clones.

again I have seen all the aoes none of them seem to be even a kilometer across with the closest being apocrypha's.

yeah I know that.

He normally goes with dodging over blocking anyway. until he really can not dodge. annd he would certainly know that something is different about VS, sheer mana output, and the length of time for activation coupledw with the fact that Itachi is furthest from being stupid, yeah he wont tank it.
 
The clone is not an exact copy. The user of the clone doesn't poof away when defeated which is enough of a difference for Karna to see through in addition to the fact that there is magecraft with similar effects and I'm positive Karna would be able to see through it.

Well I don't know what to tell you about the range then, if you think the range is small the only thing at this point I can point you to in order to convince you is the fact that VS is stated in the stats of the np to have higher range and aoe than literally all his other nps

He does normally go for dodging but when Karna chucks a brahmastra kundala at him I don't think he is going to get far enough away fast enough to dodge it and he would have to block it.

The only real tell for VS being more dangerous would be it melting everything else along with possibly the short phrase he says. Itachi would have to leave a clone behind that somehow tricks Karna and run kilometers away to avoid it.
 
Paul Frank said:
The clone is not an exact copy. The user of the clone doesn't poof away when defeated which is enough of a difference for Karna to see through in addition to the fact that there is magecraft with similar effects and I'm positive Karna would be able to see through it.
Well I don't know what to tell you about the range then, if you think the range is small the only thing at this point I can point you to in order to convince you is the fact that VS is stated in the stats of the np to have higher range and aoe than literally all his other nps

He does normally go for dodging but when Karna chucks a brahmastra kundala at him I don't think he is going to get far enough away fast enough to dodge it and he would have to block it.

The only real tell for VS being more dangerous would be it melting everything else along with possibly the short phrase he says. Itachi would have to leave a clone behind that somehow tricks Karna and run kilometers away to avoid it.
Click to expand...
Being positive is not enough, Karna's discernment is more about people lying in his face and things like that, this is a clone with the same exact abilities , knowledge behaviour and fighting style as Itachi.

I am just using my eyes mate, I can say yeah the range is likely kilometers long, btu def not the aoe of the explosion.

that is fine brahmaster can be blocked.

yeah and the whole theatrics that karna does to fire it comared to everything else, it is obviously a big f you attack compared to all his other shit. He wont have to run kilometers to do it as I have said its aoe is not that big.
 
Karna's discernment isn't just about lying, it also literally tells him everything about whoever he is looking at including the stats of servants and the fact Shirou is a servant too.

I don't think we are going to reach an agreement on that then, the aoe is certainly kilometers

Yes brahmastra can be blocked which would lead Itachi to believe he can block vs, remember everything related to Karna appears weaker to anyone able to analyze him.

Karna doesn't really do that many theatrics, the most he did was in Apocrypha. He floated up asked Sieg his name, then summoned the spear which melted everything while he did a chant. In every other game he at most floats up and says a few words before firing the blast.
 
Paul Frank said:
Karna's discernment isn't just about lying, it also literally tells him everything about whoever he is looking at including the stats of servants and the fact Shirou is a servant too.
I don't think we are going to reach an agreement on that then, the aoe is certainly kilometers

Yes brahmastra can be blocked which would lead Itachi to believe he can block vs, remember everything related to Karna appears weaker to anyone able to analyze him.

Karna doesn't really do that many theatrics, the most he did was in Apocrypha. He floated up asked Sieg his name, then summoned the spear which melted everything while he did a chant. In every other game he at most floats up and says a few words before firing the blast.
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And all that it would tell him is that they are the clones are the same as Itachi himself.

I guess.

yeah I dont think that a High 3-A attack would appear that weak lol. especially one melting everything around it before it is even fired.

the melting in itself is very theatric, the floating, the spear above him and the chanting, I dont think anything in Naruto needs this much to be used. even the weird things opening in his back and the huge flames behnd him.
 
Either way the more likely scenario to me than itachi somehow dodging vs is that he blocks a brahmastra kundala and realizes Karna is weaker than him due to that and uncrowned marital arts

Since Itachi blocked it Karna goes to use vs and since that removes his armor Itachi hits him with anything sans a kunai and basically 1 shots with his ap advantage before Karna says the few words needed to use the blast
 
Karna is superior in skill to every single one of his brothers, he also essentially solo'd the Kurukshetra war, only losing due to willingly giving up his armor, refusing to fight Arjuna and being betrayed by his own charioteer. As seen during apocrypha he is either equal to or superior to Siegfried skill wise during their cqc battles.

That's not a proof of him being superior.

I can also list a bunch of very skilled ninja's who he can outskill,Itachi as a child was stronger than many Anbu.+Karna's skill in CQC doesn't matter here,Sharingan will copy all of his moves with ease.
 
That is proof of being superior

Stronger does not mean more skilled, what is the top skill feat Itachi or anyone he is more skilled than has.

Karna resists via mooncell shenanigans

Uncrowned martial arts also hides his literal skills so Itachi can't copy them. In addition I'm not sure what Itachi is going to do even if he could copy Karna's techniques since Karna's techniques use bows or spears, neither of which Itachi possess
 
As for skill feats he scales well above people who scale above people who scale above anbu who are pretty skilled. He is skiled enough to throw multiple kunai in such a way that they curve around trees to trike 3 different targets all at the same time while rescuing naruto and B with his susanoo. http://*****************/read-online/Naruto-chapter-552-page-3.html


I mean his susanoo can probably form a bow or spear since its form changes according to what the user wants.
 
Itachi at age 10 was outskilling master shinobi, he became the leader of the anbu at 13. Itachi is no joke when it comes to skill.
 
I know all of that I don't see how outskilling master shinobi compares to literally stomping an entire nation's army along with being more skilled than all the brothers including arjuna

The anbu thing also isn't exactly a feat that can be compared to anything else. It's a testament to him being skilled sure but as a teenager Karna was already more skilled than all 5 Pandava brothers who were all the most skilled of the kingdom.

When he entered the war the only person who could put up a fight against him, Arjuna, admitted he would die if he ever fought Karna
 
Basically the Pandava brothers were more skilled than anyone in the kingdom

Karna outskilled them by a decent amount as a teenager

He entered the war and basically solo'd it and the only person who could potentially put up a fight against him was the eldest most skilled of the Pandava brothers, Arjuna, who said with certainty that he would die if he ever fought Karna
 
Ok, I at least understand it now.

Yeah that's very impressive and maybe outskills Itachi, but I don't see that being to the point where Itachi won't lend a hit on him or something.
 
Outskilling a very skilled Shinobi is much more impressive then stomping an army of fodders.
 
Karna can also fly and increase his speed and strength using mana burst, I also didn't mean he would never land a hit but more that he wouldn't be able to land enough to kill him while he still had k&k since karna would just be regenerating the damage he did take.

As soon as he loses the armor though he basically dies in one hit
 
Schnee One said:
Outskilling a very skilled Shinobi is much more impressive then stomping an army of fodders.
Click to expand...
The army was by no means slouches and neither were the brothers

Also 'very skilled' is kinda iffy considering most master shinobi don't really have skill feats besides being called master shinobi
 
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