Mushuko Tensei High-Tier AP CTR

[Digital_Franz]

This is yet another tracking error, I know it normatively isn't indexed like this, I'm claiming in this specific instance, it ought to be.

This isn't really a special instance. AP doesn't and will never overcome Regeneration. There are only two ways: Regeneration Negation or damages exceeding the healing factor's degree.

I'm not claiming their dura scales to it, I'm claiming we can do something like this;

“X tier, Regen caps at Y tier”

This isn't a thing and never will it be a thing, such are the standards.

Regeneration has its levels and conditions:

For example, if a character can regenerate from having their head destroyed but not from comparable damage to their heart, they would be listed as having Low-Mid regeneration.

Is blatantly false. The regeneration cap that you've yet to properly debunk proves this to be false. And, thats also blantantly false as that is not his immortal demon regeneration functions. Please, for the love of god, read the entire CRT, and negate it rather than operating under the assumption that it isn't the case, as frankly, you are never proving it to not be the case, as it is blatantly true.

I mean it isn't really false though? Rudeus blasted his upper body and he "regenerated" just fine.
The part with Rudeus is a little different from the regeneration scenario because he didn't actually regenerate or create the destroyed part of his body; rather, it came to him in several fragments. His regeneration in this case was therefore rapid because these body parts weren't completely destroyed but simply scattered.

Spoiler: VOL 9

My bullet tore through the air with a high-pitched whine. There wasn’t any recoil; for whatever reason, there never was with magic. But that didn’t make its power any less real.
The stone slammed into Badigadi with an enormous bang. His entire upper body was blown apart; his six arms disintegrated instantly. His lower half, still intact, soared dozens of meters backward and plopped limply to the ground.
I needed to calm down. And make sure I understand exactly what I’d done.
Slowly, fearfully, I turned around to look at Badigadi once again.
“Bwahahahaha! I am REVIVED!”
I very nearly fired off another Stone Cannon immediately.
Badigadi was standing right in front of me, alive once again… and about half as big as before. He was roughly my height now, but his head wasn’t any smaller than before. The effect was a bit bizarre. That wasn’t really important right now, though.
“Oh. You’re alive…”
That was definitely a relief. I’d convinced myself that I’d killed a man without even meaning to. Good thing I wasn’t up against a normal human being.
“Bwahahaha! I thought I was done for, boy! In any case, now it all makes sense. It was wise of you to prevent a real battle. Had we fought in earnest, this whole area would have been reduced to a barren wasteland!” Badigadi let out a sustained burst of laughter. I guess he found the idea amusing.
Over the next few moments, all six of his arms came crawling to him across the dirt and rejoined his body. He was growing steadily larger, although he wasn’t quite back to normal yet.
“You certainly sent me flying quite a distance, boy. Looks like it’ll take some time before I’m my old self again!” Badigadi seemed inexplicably excited about this. “You win this one, Rudeus!” he continued gleefully. “Feel free to call yourself a hero!”

Badigadi can be killed, although it takes him barely a day to revive, so his not moving when Eris annihilated him is not really proof that his regeneration was overcame.

Spoiler: VOL 8

Though reluctant, the other ogres obeyed. A grand farewell banquet was held, and the guest and the Ogre God enjoyed a variety of special events such as wrestling matches and eating contests. Then, in good spirits, they saw their guest off—the amiable man who had suddenly showed up one day and then lived in their village for close to two years. An immortal man who fought with the Ogre God and lost, only to revive the next day and lose over and over in a cycle of death and rebirth. A great man with pitch-black skin and six arms.

Immortal demons have a certain damage limit, and they have never been shown to regenerate instantly after having their bodies completely destroyed. Badigadi's body was completely destroyed by Eris, which is why he didn't regenerate immediately; it's simply overtime. Badigadi for example took years to regenerate from the Ringus Sea explosion.

Spoiler: VOL 23

Light wrapped around the two as their lives faded from the world.
Hm? Skeptical about the light? A little too pretty? Hardly! That rotten Laplace had made his body explode. That vindictive ass had thought about what to do if he were killed. He’d prepared a special art to use as he lay at death’s door, one that would split the smallest particles of his body upon his death—the Laplace factor—which would spread out across all the matter in the world, biding its time. Unfortunately for him, the Man-God had come up with a scheme to combat this. The secret technique the armor had deployed against him rendered his art incomplete. When his body was split, half of the mana intended to perform this technique was missing. It spun out of control, exploding—a terrible, but not totalizing, destruction.
The immortal Laplace died.
Okay, okay, it was a little more complicated than that. He was split in half—into the Demon God and Technique God respectively. But the being that called himself Demonic Dragon God Laplace was no more. Fragments of him lived, but the whole being as he’d existed was dead.
As for our protagonist—even though he’d died, he was still an immortal demon. It took some years for him to fully recover, but he did.
Until then, however, he remained unconscious, lost in a fleeting dreamworld.

As for Atofe, she could be dead, just as Badigadi died against Ogre God, and revive after a day or more, depending on the damage she sustained. This wouldn't help Rudeus at all in that case.

As for Alexander, he was just unlucky; he was facing Orsted. Him unable to regenerate against Orsted proves nothing except Regeneration Negation, especially considering Orsted can completely kill immortal demons and had summoned Godblade, a sword made to kill gods.

Spoiler: VOL 25

“That if we only had the Fighting God Armor, we might even be able to defeat Dragon God Orsted! That is my point!”
“And what if we don’t have it?”
“Then we shall surely lose. The young North God and the toothless Sword God may claim otherwise, but I, who have fought the Dragon God and survived, know better than anyone his strength.”
Geese was silent.
“Though I am an immortal demon, I expect I should die if I fought him, for he knows ways to kill even those of my kind.”

 

[Godslayermeli]

so you want badigadi to have limited high mid regen, where after a while he cant regenerate if you do enough damage to him?

Yes, that's exactly what's I've been saying.

 

[Godslayermeli]

This isn't really a special instance. AP doesn't and will never overcome Regeneration. There are only two ways: Regeneration Negation or damages exceeding the healing factor's degree.

This isn't a thing and never will it be a thing, such are the standards.

Regeneration has its levels and conditions:


I mean it isn't really false though? Rudeus blasted his upper body and he "regenerated" just fine.
The part with Rudeus is a little different from the regeneration scenario because he didn't actually regenerate or create the destroyed part of his body; rather, it came to him in several fragments. His regeneration in this case was therefore rapid because these body parts weren't completely destroyed but simply scattered.

Spoiler: VOL 9

My bullet tore through the air with a high-pitched whine. There wasn’t any recoil; for whatever reason, there never was with magic. But that didn’t make its power any less real.
The stone slammed into Badigadi with an enormous bang. His entire upper body was blown apart; his six arms disintegrated instantly. His lower half, still intact, soared dozens of meters backward and plopped limply to the ground.
I needed to calm down. And make sure I understand exactly what I’d done.
Slowly, fearfully, I turned around to look at Badigadi once again.
“Bwahahahaha! I am REVIVED!”
I very nearly fired off another Stone Cannon immediately.
Badigadi was standing right in front of me, alive once again… and about half as big as before. He was roughly my height now, but his head wasn’t any smaller than before. The effect was a bit bizarre. That wasn’t really important right now, though.
“Oh. You’re alive…”
That was definitely a relief. I’d convinced myself that I’d killed a man without even meaning to. Good thing I wasn’t up against a normal human being.
“Bwahahaha! I thought I was done for, boy! In any case, now it all makes sense. It was wise of you to prevent a real battle. Had we fought in earnest, this whole area would have been reduced to a barren wasteland!” Badigadi let out a sustained burst of laughter. I guess he found the idea amusing.
Over the next few moments, all six of his arms came crawling to him across the dirt and rejoined his body. He was growing steadily larger, although he wasn’t quite back to normal yet.
“You certainly sent me flying quite a distance, boy. Looks like it’ll take some time before I’m my old self again!” Badigadi seemed inexplicably excited about this. “You win this one, Rudeus!” he continued gleefully. “Feel free to call yourself a hero!”

Badigadi can be killed, although it takes him barely a day to revive, so his not moving when Eris annihilated him is not really proof that his regeneration was overcame.

Spoiler: VOL 8

Though reluctant, the other ogres obeyed. A grand farewell banquet was held, and the guest and the Ogre God enjoyed a variety of special events such as wrestling matches and eating contests. Then, in good spirits, they saw their guest off—the amiable man who had suddenly showed up one day and then lived in their village for close to two years. An immortal man who fought with the Ogre God and lost, only to revive the next day and lose over and over in a cycle of death and rebirth. A great man with pitch-black skin and six arms.

Immortal demons have a certain damage limit, and they have never been shown to regenerate instantly after having their bodies completely destroyed. Badigadi's body was completely destroyed by Eris, which is why he didn't regenerate immediately; it's simply overtime. Badigadi for example took years to regenerate from the Ringus Sea explosion.

Spoiler: VOL 23

Light wrapped around the two as their lives faded from the world.
Hm? Skeptical about the light? A little too pretty? Hardly! That rotten Laplace had made his body explode. That vindictive ass had thought about what to do if he were killed. He’d prepared a special art to use as he lay at death’s door, one that would split the smallest particles of his body upon his death—the Laplace factor—which would spread out across all the matter in the world, biding its time. Unfortunately for him, the Man-God had come up with a scheme to combat this. The secret technique the armor had deployed against him rendered his art incomplete. When his body was split, half of the mana intended to perform this technique was missing. It spun out of control, exploding—a terrible, but not totalizing, destruction.
The immortal Laplace died.
Okay, okay, it was a little more complicated than that. He was split in half—into the Demon God and Technique God respectively. But the being that called himself Demonic Dragon God Laplace was no more. Fragments of him lived, but the whole being as he’d existed was dead.
As for our protagonist—even though he’d died, he was still an immortal demon. It took some years for him to fully recover, but he did.
Until then, however, he remained unconscious, lost in a fleeting dreamworld.

As for Atofe, she could be dead, just as Badigadi died against Ogre God, and revive after a day or more, depending on the damage she sustained. This wouldn't help Rudeus at all in that case.

As for Alexander, he was just unlucky; he was facing Orsted. Him unable to regenerate against Orsted proves nothing except Regeneration Negation, especially considering Orsted can completely kill immortal demons and had summoned Godblade, a sword made to kill gods.

Spoiler: VOL 25

“That if we only had the Fighting God Armor, we might even be able to defeat Dragon God Orsted! That is my point!”
“And what if we don’t have it?”
“Then we shall surely lose. The young North God and the toothless Sword God may claim otherwise, but I, who have fought the Dragon God and survived, know better than anyone his strength.”
Geese was silent.
“Though I am an immortal demon, I expect I should die if I fought him, for he knows ways to kill even those of my kind.”

Finally, a somewhat competent response, albiet, it fails, but I'll address it one at a time.

This isn't really a special instance. AP doesn't and will never overcome Regeneration. There are only two ways: Regeneration Negation or damages exceeding the healing factor's degree

This is quite the large flaw in reasoning. You're claiming in every single instance regeneration can only be overcame via either negation or damage exceeding the healing factor (e.g. erasure)?

To kill that claim, let's do two things. For one, let's have character x, character x can regenerate any and all attacks as long as those attacks are not planetary or higher in strength. They survive being hit by an attack that vaporized them and regenerated, that attack was contentinal. They get hit by an attack that blows off their arm that is planetary, that arm never regenerates.

Clearly, this is quite the counter-example to your explanation of regeneration, and it aligns close with the VSBW definition, especially when compared to yours, which makes a category error into the semantics.

This isn't a thing and never will it be a thing, such are the standards.


Regeneration has its levels and conditions:

My issue is with that word “never”, I believe this is an instance in which an exception ought to be made. I don't see why that ought to act as a universal.

I mean it isn't really false though? Rudeus blasted his upper body and he "regenerated" just fine.

The part with Rudeus is a little different from the regeneration scenario because he didn't actually regenerate or create the destroyed part of his body; rather, it came to him in several fragments. His regeneration in this case was therefore rapid because these body parts weren't completely destroyed but simply scattered.

Category error number two within this response. For one, you misrepresent the feat. Half of his body, was, indeed vaporized, and the other half going away. He regenerated from this nearly instantly. Afterall, your citation supports this, so I do not know why you're holding sections that attempt to prove your point, when the text contradicts it:

“His entire upper body was blown apart; his six arms disintegrated instantly. His lower half, still intact, soared dozens of meters backward and plopped limply to the ground.” - Your Citation

Badigadi can be killed, although it takes him barely a day to revive, so his not moving when Eris annihilated him is not really proof that his regeneration was overcame.

There's a large distinction between the Ogre God example and the Eris example, and the Rudeus example proves this. I cannot tell if you are not tracking, if you are attempting to be fallicous, or if you simply can't comprehend the words in the story, but the Rudues example clearly states:

“Badigadi was standing right in front of me, alive once again… and about half as big as before. He was roughly my height now, but his head wasn’t any smaller than before. The effect was a bit bizarre. That wasn’t really important right now, though.

“Oh. You’re alive…”

That was definitely a relief. I’d convinced myself that I’d killed a man without even meaning to. Good thing I wasn’t up against a normal human being.” - Your scan

Within this statement, it is quite evident that immortal demons begin to regenerate immediately, but to not get back to peak condition immediately. This is consistent with the fact that Badigadi wasn't back to normal till later within volume 9, and that it took him a day to get back to full capacity against the Ogre God. These examples do not serve to disprove the Eris example, as, clearly, we can infer that his regeneration process began instantly (consistent with volume 8, volume 9, 25, 26, etc) within the Ogre God case, and simply, some time had passed before he was in peak condition. The same is not the case for the Eris example, where it is stated that he was destroyed, and that he was not regenerating. What we know to be atleast an hour later, Purgius comes to seal Badigadi, and he has yet to even begin regeneration. My case is regeneration was override by Eris's AP using the King Dragon Blade.

To beat this argument even further into the dirt— why do you presuppose that Badigadi randomly regenerated to full health, and that his regeneration process didn't immediately begin, yet took time, in the Ogre God example?

Immortal demons have a certain damage limit, and they have never been shown to regenerate instantly after having their bodies completely destroyed. Badigadi's body was completely destroyed by Eris, which is why he didn't regenerate immediately; it's simply overtime. Badigadi for example took years to regenerate from the Ringus Sea explosion.

Kid. Your evidence, once more, supports my point. For one, that first line is a concession to the point, but I'll address the rest regardless of that. I acknowledge the second point, and I'm using it in my case. I'm arguing that their regeneration process begins instantly, not that they poof back to perfect health instantly. Your scan supports my case once more, as how the terms are worded implies that his regeneration began instantly, it just took time to finish. I am fine with this, I'm arguing BECAUSE it didn't start instantly in the Eris case, that Badigadi's regeneration had been overcame. This is once more consistent with the rest of my case, and you keep providing evidence supporting it.

As for Atofe, she could be dead, just as Badigadi died against Ogre God, and revive after a day or more, depending on the damage she sustained. This wouldn't help Rudeus at all in that case.

Prove this? We have two interpretations, but obviously, Fighting God Badigadi is on a much higher caliber than the Ogre God, and, being killed by his hand ought to be similar to all the other cases, either being she begins regeneration instantly, or that she doesn't regenerate at all. We have no evidence of the former, and thus, given all the evidence we can affirm the latter. Such is allowed under most probability models and such.

As for Alexander, he was just unlucky; he was facing Orsted. Him unable to regenerate against Orsted proves nothing except Regeneration Negation, especially considering Orsted can completely kill immortal demons and had summoned Godblade, a sword made to kill gods

Sure, I can grant this point.

 

[Zabazab]

that Badigadi's regeneration had been overcame

Wow, so he died? This means he died right? You're saying Badigadi doesn't appear mere tens of pages later, perfectly alive, in the very same book? Is that your claim?

 

[Hercules1125]

Wow, so he died? This means he died right? You're saying Badigadi doesn't appear mere tens of pages later, perfectly alive, in the very same book? Is that your claim?

Are you pretending not to track his argument on purpose?

 

[Digital_Franz]

This is quite the large flaw in reasoning. You're claiming in every single instance regeneration can only be overcame via either negation or damage exceeding the healing factor (e.g. erasure)?

I don't know where you got that the only mean is through erasure but no. Erasure matters in the Godly level.

To kill that claim, let's do two things. For one, let's have character x, character x can regenerate any and all attacks as long as those attacks are not planetary or higher in strength. They survive being hit by an attack that vaporized them and regenerated, that attack was contentinal. They get hit by an attack that blows off their arm that is planetary, that arm never regenerates.

Your claim here is trying to make it seem as if a character with higher AP can't display Regeneration Negation, which is incorrect. And the condition for regeneration isn't the strength of attacks the characters take, but the levels of damages the character take. Having his head or body destroyed by characters like 7-A or 6-B is no different. They are destroyed, that's all.

For your example, there are two possible explanations: either Regeneration Negation, or it falls under the category on the Regeneration page. This is even more true when the different attacks are performed by different characters.

Take note that, although by default characters will recover from lower degrees of damage than their regeneration levels, if it is shown not to consistently be the case, often by not triggering until a certain level of damage occurs, that should be specified in each respective case.

I'll add this too.

If a character's ability to regenerate is limited to certain conditions, their page must explain those circumstances in detail. If the character's regeneration only covers damage included under a higher type of regeneration and not from damage included in a lower type, list the lowest type with all qualifiers met, or none if not even the lowest type has sufficient justification. Explain the extent of the regeneration in an additional note.

It's possible to cover higher type and not lower of regeneration, and it's idependent from the AP of the attack, as long as the characters is damaged.

Clearly, this is quite the counter-example to your explanation of regeneration, and it aligns close with the VSBW definition, especially when compared to yours, which makes a category error into the semantics.

Well just above you have what aligns with the standards.

My issue is with that word “never”, I believe this is an instance in which an exception ought to be made. I don't see why that ought to act as a universal.

Because it's pretty much accepted that you can have a higher type of regeneration not able to cover the lower type.

Category error number two within this response. For one, you misrepresent the feat. Half of his body, was, indeed vaporized, and the other half going away. He regenerated from this nearly instantly. Afterall, your citation supports this, so I do not know why you're holding sections that attempt to prove your point, when the text contradicts it:

I mean, you do read his arms coming back, right? Instead of growing back on his body. And his body wasn't vaporized, that what Rudeus saw and thought at the very least, but Badigadi told him he sent him flying quite far.

There's a large distinction between the Ogre God example and the Eris example, and the Rudeus example proves this. I cannot tell if you are not tracking, if you are attempting to be fallicous, or if you simply can't comprehend the words in the story, but the Rudues example clearly states:


Within this statement, it is quite evident that immortal demons begin to regenerate immediately, but to not get back to peak condition immediately. This is consistent with the fact that Badigadi wasn't back to normal till later within volume 9, and that it took him a day to get back to full capacity against the Ogre God. These examples do not serve to disprove the Eris example, as, clearly, we can infer that his regeneration process began instantly (consistent with volume 8, volume 9, 25, 26, etc) within the Ogre God case, and simply, some time had passed before he was in peak condition.

I don't see why a character who is reborn immediately would be said to be reborn the next day, when he is in fact alive even if he is missing parts of his body. And when Rudeus destroyed him, he is said to be alive (that is, he is reborn) even though his body is not in its original form. So for him to be reborn the next day is literally what it is; he is reborn the next day.

The same is not the case for the Eris example, where it is stated that he was destroyed, and that he was not regenerating. What we know to be atleast an hour later, Purgius comes to seal Badigadi, and he has yet to even begin regeneration. My case is regeneration was override by Eris's AP using the King Dragon Blade.

And my point is that Badigadi just had damage beyond the threshold he could withstand, which has nothing to do with AP but rather with his regeneration level and an AoE sufficient to destroy his entire body.

To beat this argument even further into the dirt— why do you presuppose that Badigadi randomly regenerated to full health, and that his regeneration process didn't immediately begin, yet took time, in the Ogre God example?

That's a good point, but you also have nothing to prove the contrary, honestly. As I said in Rudeus's case, instead of regrowing his lost upper body, it returned to him.

Kid. Your evidence, once more, supports my point. For one, that first line is a concession to the point, but I'll address the rest regardless of that. I acknowledge the second point, and I'm using it in my case. I'm arguing that their regeneration process begins instantly, not that they poof back to perfect health instantly. Your scan supports my case once more, as how the terms are worded implies that his regeneration began instantly, it just took time to finish.

I don't know where you see a concession but regardless. There is absolutely nothing in that scan remotely close to support your claim that he started regenerating instantly.

I am fine with this, I'm arguing BECAUSE it didn't start instantly in the Eris case, that Badigadi's regeneration had been overcame. This is once more consistent with the rest of my case, and you keep providing evidence supporting it.

And that attack from Eris isn't as strong as Laplace's explosion.

Prove this?

Badigadi is the prime example tho. Fighting God Badigadi, being more powerful than Ogre God, can kill Atofe, who will be resurrected in a day or more, just like Badigadi when he was killed by Ogre God and Laplace.

 

[Zabazab]

Badigadi for example took years to regenerate from the Ringus Sea explosion.

Yeah Badigadi has High-Mid regen and like, Mid-High over time? Eris's attack turned his main body to dust, so he either returned from that dust or just came back from the arms they cut off during the fight. The Ringus Sea explosion annihilating him should probably give some solid Mid-High though.