Ah shit, here we go again
And in those volumes, Luminas was considered god. So trying to use those volumes to prop up the idea that All-one still exists, is simply misleading the evidence in order to fit the premise, which it cannot. If "God" in those volumes meant anything different, then prove why that would be different.
The scans I'm using of those volumes mention the Holy Spirit, not directly God. So your point falls apart since in V6:
The four bodies of “Dragon Species,” the first one among them, was an existence that, on the earth, bore a child with a human. Strangely, the “Dragon Species” that mated with a human had the greater part of its power taken by the child. Since then, the act of “Dragon Species” bearing a child with humans seems to be regarded as a taboo prohibition. That “Dragon Species,” having lost its power, dispersed its body and accomplished incarnation on the earth, becoming the progenitor of the dragon race. From that, the “will bearing existences of the Holy Spirit of Nature” came to be called “Dragon Species.”
Translation confirmed by @RaikiKurohane99 in DMs
Also, luminous is referred to as God by luminous supporters, not by the narrator or Ramiris during Volume 4. So once again your point doesn't matter. It's as if "because some people believe X character is god, all statements in those volumes regarding God refer to X", which is am association fallacy.
True, but the Contradictions could've occur post-creation, and my premise would still hold. There is no contradictions to my points either. Veldanava created and then caused changed which made him lose his powers therefore not being all-one.
This is taking a line from the LN as literally as possible and not analyzing the context behind it.
It was quite literally said later that Veldanava cannot be the All One because he has so many contradictions.
Nothing here is proven in any of the evidence brought forward. This seems like assumptions at most based on limited information.
Maybe try reading the OP?
What evidence brought forward supports this? I never saw anything in this or the prior CRT that actually confirms this being the case. Where is the "Holy Spirit" Cause like I showed, that could refer back to Luminas, as Ciel is saying God=Holy Spirit and I proved that in those volumes Luminas was considered the God/goddess.
Luvelage thinks.
What is called contradiction…?
What first existed was a world of “death” without end. However the “beginning” called “life” also did not exist in that world. There was neither excess nor deficiency it was filled with tranquility.
Fearing change, it was dozing as if dreaming. Amidst that, one half leapt out toward freedom with courage in its chest.
And for the first time, it came to know something called loneliness. Just as Veldanava was so, the still unnamed Ivaraje also came to feel loneliness.
If one returns to omniscience and omnipotence, all change ceases to exist. If one cries out that they dislike that, then one must carve open the path oneself.
Veldanava sought a new world, new companions. In contrast to that, Ivaraje, lacking the courage to obtain wisdom and emotion, chose the path of feeling nothing.
And thus, after the passage of tens of billions of years
God became one once again. And yet, why is it not the “All-one”?
There are likely many factors, but Rimuru’s words are probably correct after all. In the end, there are multiple ways of thinking. All of them were correct, and yet also incorrect.
Source
V23C5
The differences honestly don't matter if the foundation of your points require Holy Spirit to equate to All-One. Since it doesn't, there is not reason to bring up The different ideas of God.
Oh it for sure does:
The four bodies of “Dragon Species,” the first one among them, was an existence that, on the earth, bore a child with a human. Strangely, the “Dragon Species” that mated with a human had the greater part of its power taken by the child. Since then, the act of “Dragon Species” bearing a child with humans seems to be regarded as a taboo prohibition. That “Dragon Species,” having lost its power, dispersed its body and accomplished incarnation on the earth, becoming the progenitor of the dragon race. From that, the “will bearing existences of the Holy Spirit of Nature” came to be called “Dragon Species.”
Translation confirmed by @RaikiKurohane99 in DMs
Sure, Post-veldanava, but I am not talking about Post-Veldanava. I agree Post-Veldanava doesn't meet the requirement of All-One. So this isn't a backtrack, this is a clarification on what is or isn't connected.
There was no mention of "pre-creation Veldanava" in the scan provided, as the OP never made a distinction on what they were discussing. Also I doubt anybody actually brought forth evidence that proves otherwise, since there was no refutations for this specific point in the last CRT. So you either think Pre-creation Veldanava = Post-Creation veldanava (Which you already said are separate instances of Veldanava) or you are misunderstanding my point.
What was discussed in the section you linked, is about post-creation, not pre-creation. Meaning I can talk about pre-creation all I want and not backtrack to the last CRT.
Pre Creation Veldanava was already divided into two further keys, Pre Descent and Post Descent:
Goodmorning/evening everyone Today I wanted to divide the Pre-Creation key for Veldanava, and also move some a abilities Veldanava Key Divisison Tier Difference Ability Difference Clarification Summary This is the summary of the above proposals...
vsbattles.com
Pre Descent is Veldanava before he created the World. That would also be WHEN HE WAS BORN as he created the world after being born. When he was only a Will.
What distinguishes that from the Perfection in itself is the idea that when the Will (Veldanava) leapt forward and sought freedom (and was born as a causal creature, a true dragon), he no longer was the All One:
Luvelage thinks.
What is called contradiction…?
What first existed was a world of “death” without end. However the “beginning” called “life” also did not exist in that world. There was neither excess nor deficiency it was filled with tranquility.
Fearing change, it was dozing as if dreaming. Amidst that, one half leapt out toward freedom with courage in its chest.
And for the first time, it came to know something called loneliness. Just as Veldanava was so, the still unnamed Ivaraje also came to feel loneliness.
If one returns to omniscience and omnipotence, all change ceases to exist. If one cries out that they dislike that, then one must carve open the path oneself.
Veldanava sought a new world, new companions. In contrast to that, Ivaraje, lacking the courage to obtain wisdom and emotion, chose the path of feeling nothing.
And thus, after the passage of tens of billions of years
God became one once again. And yet, why is it not the “All-one”?
There are likely many factors, but Rimuru’s words are probably correct after all. In the end, there are multiple ways of thinking. All of them were correct, and yet also incorrect.
Source
V23C5
If the majority of proof is using misleading statements to suggest that God in vol 4-6 is All-One and Not Luminas, which I have provided evidence that it was, then yes. Consider it debunked until you find evidence of the contrary.
Oh yeah, if your entire counter argument is based on equating the actual Holy Spirit with someone that's just worshiped as God, that argument isn't even worth a 2nd glance.
Not at all, it's equal interpretation. He "discarded" his omnipotence right? So wouldn't that equally mean he's discarding himself? Could it? If you can't even grant the possibility of that being the interpretation, then what makes your interpretation so much stronger?
He did discard himself:
In truth, he understood.
That the one who was the Creator had discarded himself. Not wanting to acknowledge that, it had been struggling until now. But that too is already over. That place was warm, and everything was fulfilled.
Source
V19C4
My contention is mainly on how you interpret the act of discarding and WHEN in the chronological placement of the story he discarded himselfm
The support evidence for mine is that he is continuously been described as a being who lost his omnipotence and Omniscience. If he knew he was going to lose his powers, as he was omniscience, then him using his powers knowing he was going to lose them, would equate to him giving it up/discarding them, therefore discarding himself as All-One. Which is the argument.
Same as what I said above.
My interpretation and argument is that he was originally born as a Will of the "Perfect" together with Ivarage (single will). That Will had no active consciousness or self recognition functions, basically like how we are in a normal dream.
Then that will slowly gained self awareness, but also started to have conflicting ways of thinking. That was when Ivarage and Veldanava metaphysically separated. And that lead to them being born in reality as true dragons with actual bodies rather than just a Will.
Lonely. Regretful. Unforgivable.
There was once a time when it was the flawless and perfect “All-one.”
It was fulfilled. Ivarage, who had neither intellect, nor sensibility, nor even emotion,did not feel anxiety or dissatisfaction, and did not even feel boredom.
And yet half of the body was lost.
The dreamlike sense of omnipotence disappeared, and it was exposed to a reality whose future could not be seen.
Source
V22 Prologue
God wasn't even a True Dragon (like Veldanava), he created them:
If the greatest masterpiece created by the Creator God is the "Dragon Species," then he will show that he can make even that submit.
It can be said that for such Pipin to hit it off with Ashley and Plerix was a very natural flow. And thus, the three, at this time, obtained the greatest opportunity.
Vacation Side Story
Translated by @RaikiKurohane99 in DMs
I'll only address this last, because the different concept section is honestly a non-point as it really depends whether or not All-One still existed during those times.
The biggest issue isn't about Omnipotence, it's about being called a God. Velgrynd didn't consider herself one because she isn't a creator like Veldanava, she just can manipulate the natural world, but to normal regular people, that's god like.
The "I'm not" one is actually a mistranslation, the correct one is from Slimereader; "he's not a god". I'll get this raiki to confirm this
この世界では、最高にして最強の威力 を誇るのは間違いない。故に、その威力量 だけを見れば、鬼龍級を超えて神仏級にま で届き得ると考えられていたのだ。
「貴女は本当に神なのか？」
「世界を生み出したのは私の兄だけれ ど、神ではないわね」
「そうか……我々の認識では、それを神 と呼称するのだがな」
In this world, it is undoubtedly the case that it boasts the highest and strongest power. Therefore, if one looks only at that power, it was thought that it could surpass Oni Dragon class and even reach the level of gods and Buddhas.
“Are you truly a god?”
“My older brother is the one who created the world, but he is not a god.”
“I see… In our understanding, we would call that a god.”
Aa for "does All One of any conception exist or not?", it certainly does. If it didn't, other true dragons wouldn't be born of the same origin as Veldanava. If Veldanava and Ivarage were together all one that divides and ceases to exist all together, certainly nothing else would be able to be born of it:
世界は残酷だが、全てを与えてくれる。
それが、ヴェルダナーヴァの創造した世界だ。
ヴェルダナーヴァは、〝全なる一〟──その孤独に耐えかねた。
だからこそ、退屈を紛らわせる為に世界を生み出した。その過程で、ヴェルダナーヴァと根源を同一とする 妹弟達──〝竜種〟が誕生する。
〝竜種〟が四体となった事で、混沌としていた世界が安定した。秩序が整ったのだ。
The world is cruel, but it gives everything. That is the world created by Veldanava. Veldanava could not endure the loneliness of being the "All-One."
Therefore, in order to dispel boredom, he brought forth the world. In that process, younger siblings who share the same origin as Veldanava, the "Dragon Species", were born. With the "Dragon Species" becoming four, the world, which had been chaotic, became stable. Order was set in place.
Translation by @RaikiKurohane99 in DMs
V23C5
Just let the scan talk for it self
I agree with separation, but not with complete separation
Literally there are no direct scan that say pre existent veldanava and all-one is complete different entity, that just a assumption and narration from the supporter
In contrary we literally have scan (a direct scan) that say veldanava is all-one in the beginning
And if veldanava are completely different entity since the beginning, how can his will exist and can discarded the all-one?
- If it was literally his will, then the all-one is somehow "inferior" than veldanava, because the all-one can be discarded
- If the will is all-one's will it self, then it mean veldanava and all-one is literally one entity in the beginning
Why he and the other cannot become all-one again? Bruh the scan talk for it self. They cannot become all-one again because veldanava have contradiction, by logic that mean if veldanava doesnt have that they can in fact become all-one again. So it was not because they and all-one completely seperate and different in the first place, but because other thing
The scans so speak for itself, but your arguments certainly don't. I believe they were already brought up and addressed by someone.
To begin with if people didn't just read one section of the OP and jump into the thread, most if not all of this "arguments" wouldn't exist.
And too many assumtion, the argument also used an concept that doesnt explained nor explored clear enough in the verse, like taiji, they want to use that for prove that veldanava and all-one are completely seperate entity since the beginning
It just say that luvelage have a jewel, and that jewel's shape resembling yin-yang taijitsu. It doesnt say anything after that. We cannot use this kind of scan as prove that the cosmology use those concept. Even if the cosmology literally use that concept, we just allow to use what the verse literally show not a copypaste from wikipedia
Just another proof that you didn't read the OP nor all the scans in it. There's a scan for Veldanava and Ivarage being Yang and Ying.... Yes, a scan separate from the Taijitu scan.
