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Musashi vs Luffy
- Thread starter KGiffoni
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Where does that even come from? They are equal in speed, and Luffy isn't going to randomly drop his guard when coming into contact with an opponent. Assuming Musashi is going for a kill shot is ignoring the fact that 1) Luffy has durability high enough to actually take a hit, and 2) Luffy one-shots.Amlad22 said:
And yes, the fact that Grapple Baki is only at Superhuman/Hypersonic+ speeds is pretty strange. There's potential to be a lot higher.
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Ohhhhhhhh Spiceyness
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- Thread starter
- #46
Anyways, it's the world's greatest swordsman we're bloodlusting here. His pain and sense manip can easily faint Luffy without a need for him to close the distance gap at all.
It works like this: it makes you feel the pain of being sliced in half without Musashi actually cutting you. Not only the pain, but also the overall feeling.
It works like this: it makes you feel the pain of being sliced in half without Musashi actually cutting you. Not only the pain, but also the overall feeling.
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Luffy really isn't that weak to bladed attacks. That's a weakness that's grossly over exaggerated, he just isn't resistant to slashing and cutting attacks like he is with physical attacks so he gets cut up just as any normal person would.
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Also why are we underestimating Luffy's pain tolerance? He's always had an enormous pain tolerance.
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I believe that's been discussed and it's a no.
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@KGiffoni - In regards to Luffy by Skypeia, his pain tolerance is no where near as impressive as it became later down the line. But he still has a list of abnormal feats regarding his tolerance to pain:
Most of his pain defying feats comes after Skypeia, which is very inconvenient, but this is enough to get a general idea.
- He has been hit by an explosive spear several times, and despite very obviously being covered in burns and being hurt from head-to-toe, he was quite unphased by the time the fight concluded.
Most of his pain defying feats comes after Skypeia, which is very inconvenient, but this is enough to get a general idea.
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Honestly, i don't see how Musashi is going to get a hit off (Land a hit, sure, but without consequences? Doubtful) if he obviously has to get REALLY close to Luffy to pull it off. He only has extended melee range, while Luffy has far more, and vastly superior agility (Being rubber and all).
If Musashi goes in for an attack, how likely is he able to veer off and evade if needed? Luffy can be dodging and attacking at the same time, as it is made incredibly easy due to his physical body allowing him to twist to evade but also kick and punch simultaneously.
Best case for Musashi: He manages to avoid every single grapple or hit of Luffy's and eventually cuts him down despite Luffy's agility and intuition. But that will be incredibly hard with equal speed, especially when Luffy has tagged people who move faster than he can see, and has thwarted people with precog by this point. Musashi is bringing nothing new to the table, save for an invisible weapon if he's using his Abstract blade.
I'm still unconvinced that Musashi will take a majority. It's a one-hit KO and he has no prior knowledge of what Luffy's body can possibly do.
If Musashi goes in for an attack, how likely is he able to veer off and evade if needed? Luffy can be dodging and attacking at the same time, as it is made incredibly easy due to his physical body allowing him to twist to evade but also kick and punch simultaneously.
Best case for Musashi: He manages to avoid every single grapple or hit of Luffy's and eventually cuts him down despite Luffy's agility and intuition. But that will be incredibly hard with equal speed, especially when Luffy has tagged people who move faster than he can see, and has thwarted people with precog by this point. Musashi is bringing nothing new to the table, save for an invisible weapon if he's using his Abstract blade.
I'm still unconvinced that Musashi will take a majority. It's a one-hit KO and he has no prior knowledge of what Luffy's body can possibly do.
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Hm... I think I'll retract my vote for now.
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Musashi lands a hit due to his precog and telepathy which I've already gone into detail about. He essentially knows how to counter before Luffy even knows what he wants to do. As soon as Luffy attacks Musashi would be two steps ahead and would be in the perfect position to counter with a killing blow. Pain tolerance doesn't help when your head is cut off. And if we assume Musashi attacks first. He could easily use his aura and abstract blades to put Luffy in a state of pain and fear so bad he can't move, and then cut his head off.
The overall idea of Musashi's precog not allowing him to hit Luffy because speed is equal makes no sense. His precog allowed him to easily counter and attack Baki in a way that would have killed Baki had he been serious. And at this point Baki was shown to be faster and stronger than Musashi. Luffy is not stronger than Musashi in terms of AP and he is equal in speed here so it's even worse for him. If Musashi can kill someone with around equal AP to him in one attack then he can 100% kill Luffy who is only slightly above half of Musashi's AP.
Luffy countering precog also takes a bit. He isn't able to instantly know someone uses precog and instantly counter it. That's not what happened with Enel. He needs to realize it's being used first which would likely take multiple attacks to figure out, and at that point he's dead.
So to sum it up. Yes Musashi can one shot, yes he can counter Luffy despite speed being equal and Luffy cannot counter his precog on the first try. My vote is still easily to Musashi.
The overall idea of Musashi's precog not allowing him to hit Luffy because speed is equal makes no sense. His precog allowed him to easily counter and attack Baki in a way that would have killed Baki had he been serious. And at this point Baki was shown to be faster and stronger than Musashi. Luffy is not stronger than Musashi in terms of AP and he is equal in speed here so it's even worse for him. If Musashi can kill someone with around equal AP to him in one attack then he can 100% kill Luffy who is only slightly above half of Musashi's AP.
Luffy countering precog also takes a bit. He isn't able to instantly know someone uses precog and instantly counter it. That's not what happened with Enel. He needs to realize it's being used first which would likely take multiple attacks to figure out, and at that point he's dead.
So to sum it up. Yes Musashi can one shot, yes he can counter Luffy despite speed being equal and Luffy cannot counter his precog on the first try. My vote is still easily to Musashi.
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1) I'm stating that precog and telepathy isn't going to be as effective as you claim--leading Musashi to be flawless and get the win before Luffy even makes his move. Luffy has experience against such methods, and while he wont know about it at first, Musashi also doesn't know what Luffy is capable of even after he comes to learn he can stretch. Also, I only brought up pain tolerance because it was brought up. And again, Luffy is durable enough to take hits, Musashi is not.
2) You misunderstand. I never said Musashi would not be allowed to land a hit. I said he would not be allowed to land a hit without consequences. And you seem to ignore the fact that Luffy one-shots if you're trying to compare AP. Musashi's durability is <<1/35th Luffy's AP. Luffy's Durability is >>1/2 Musashi's AP. Vast difference. One can take hits, the other can't.
3) Again, you ignore the fact that Luffy can take hits and try to find justification to go against a general rule. We simply do not suggest someone who can one-shot others with similar AP to be able to do the same to someone who is more than half in durability (especially when Grappler Baki is FULL of glass-canons, so this is a near irrelevant point).
Yes, I'm aware that you brought up several times Musashi could "one-shot" via being able to one-shot characters who match him, but if we're scaling him >45/60KT, he's still less than double Luffy's Durability, this Luffy will logically be capable of withstanding hits and not be dealt fatal injuries so easily as the standard.
Now if this second key for Musashi is scaling being capable of one-shotting people of 60 Kilotons in durability, then his profile needs some working on. And if that is indeed the case, then Luffy gets one-shot and he's disadvantaged anyways due to the listed abilities Musashi has. Instead of Luffy having a number of ways to win due to some advantages and capacity to take hits, he would have 0 chance due to the former mattering little due to the latter being nonexistent. But Luffy can still one-shot, so it's not exactly a stomp.
Depending on the clarification on Musashi's scaling, I might switch votes.
2) You misunderstand. I never said Musashi would not be allowed to land a hit. I said he would not be allowed to land a hit without consequences. And you seem to ignore the fact that Luffy one-shots if you're trying to compare AP. Musashi's durability is <<1/35th Luffy's AP. Luffy's Durability is >>1/2 Musashi's AP. Vast difference. One can take hits, the other can't.
3) Again, you ignore the fact that Luffy can take hits and try to find justification to go against a general rule. We simply do not suggest someone who can one-shot others with similar AP to be able to do the same to someone who is more than half in durability (especially when Grappler Baki is FULL of glass-canons, so this is a near irrelevant point).
Yes, I'm aware that you brought up several times Musashi could "one-shot" via being able to one-shot characters who match him, but if we're scaling him >45/60KT, he's still less than double Luffy's Durability, this Luffy will logically be capable of withstanding hits and not be dealt fatal injuries so easily as the standard.
Now if this second key for Musashi is scaling being capable of one-shotting people of 60 Kilotons in durability, then his profile needs some working on. And if that is indeed the case, then Luffy gets one-shot and he's disadvantaged anyways due to the listed abilities Musashi has. Instead of Luffy having a number of ways to win due to some advantages and capacity to take hits, he would have 0 chance due to the former mattering little due to the latter being nonexistent. But Luffy can still one-shot, so it's not exactly a stomp.
Depending on the clarification on Musashi's scaling, I might switch votes.
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Luffy being half Musashi's AP is a big factor when Musashi will 100% be getting the first strike in the battle. And likely the next few strikes as well before Luffy can adapt. The only way he could survive more than one slash from Musashi is with equal or at least comparable durability than Musashi's AP at the very least. Sure Luffy can stretch his body, but if he's caught off guard due to being countered by Musashi he won't have time. Plus Musashi could easily paralyze him and stop him from moving in that way if he deems it necessary.
The character I brought up, Baki, is not a glass cannon at all. His AP and durability scale to each other. And despise being roughly equal to Musashi, he was going to be one shot by him. This was when both of them were at >15KT. I could see the argument that Baki was holding back but that's tough to say based on Baki's character. I'll allow that though that if Baki was on guard he may have been able to take a hit or two.
Still, let's say Luffy can take a hit and only have his neck partially cut through. Musashi would target his neck again since he's bloodlusted and going for the kill, and would likely take it off in the second slash. Then you'd have to argue that Luffy can adapt to precog after one attack, which is stretching his feats a lot. Until he can counter the precog, he would just keep getting countered and suffer powerful slashes that would likely kill him in at most a few attacks. I cant see Luffy adapting to the precog in time to not get killed. And since he's getting countered and caught off guard he wouldn't be able to stretch his way out of it.
The character I brought up, Baki, is not a glass cannon at all. His AP and durability scale to each other. And despise being roughly equal to Musashi, he was going to be one shot by him. This was when both of them were at >15KT. I could see the argument that Baki was holding back but that's tough to say based on Baki's character. I'll allow that though that if Baki was on guard he may have been able to take a hit or two.
Still, let's say Luffy can take a hit and only have his neck partially cut through. Musashi would target his neck again since he's bloodlusted and going for the kill, and would likely take it off in the second slash. Then you'd have to argue that Luffy can adapt to precog after one attack, which is stretching his feats a lot. Until he can counter the precog, he would just keep getting countered and suffer powerful slashes that would likely kill him in at most a few attacks. I cant see Luffy adapting to the precog in time to not get killed. And since he's getting countered and caught off guard he wouldn't be able to stretch his way out of it.
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To answer your question about his second key also. He's just superior to 60KT. But he hasn't one shot anyone on that level. He was going to one shot 15KT Baki while he was at his 15KT key but the more I think about it Baki was likely holding back. Which is why he could only take one hit rather than a few
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Luffy's method of countering precog/telepathy doesn't work here, since this is literally sensing the electrical signals in his brain so unless he goes brain dead and keeps moving it won't affect anything. Musashi has also fought people who themselves have fought people with comparable, if not far, far better, precog than himself.
Luffy's pain tolerance is far lower than what is needed to get around Sword Simulation. It's worked on people who literally barely register an entire clip worth of bullets exploding in their mouth, which also damaged their brain and created a cavity large enough for smoke to come out of their eyes, people who get their cheeks bitten off and hospitalized for most of the bones in their body being broken before promptly walking it off, and Baki, who has far more ludicrous pain tolerance feats than I could really list.
Battle goes like this: Musashi precogs/reads the signals of Luffy's brain. There is 0 chance for a counter attack because the first hit will kill Luffy due to the AP gap and the whole bladed weapon deal
also, Baki as a series is 100% not full of glass canons. Musashi is the only person who can even remotely be considered such.
Luffy's pain tolerance is far lower than what is needed to get around Sword Simulation. It's worked on people who literally barely register an entire clip worth of bullets exploding in their mouth, which also damaged their brain and created a cavity large enough for smoke to come out of their eyes, people who get their cheeks bitten off and hospitalized for most of the bones in their body being broken before promptly walking it off, and Baki, who has far more ludicrous pain tolerance feats than I could really list.
Battle goes like this: Musashi precogs/reads the signals of Luffy's brain. There is 0 chance for a counter attack because the first hit will kill Luffy due to the AP gap and the whole bladed weapon deal
also, Baki as a series is 100% not full of glass canons. Musashi is the only person who can even remotely be considered such.
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I came here thinking of Vagabond Musashi
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@HI3 - That's not at all how Enel's Mantra (Haki) works. It's telepathy, yes, but it also has precognition, and the ability to sense the exact location of individuals in their range. He uses his fruit in conjunction with his Haki in order to read minds of everyone in Skypeia, but that's foolish to assume that's his only ability.
People really be overselling minor precognition now. So, Musashi can read Luffy's moves, but that doesn't make him some untouchable god who can't be caught mid-attack.
@Amlad - If you're talking when both characters were >15KT, that has nothing to do with the key we are discussing now. And Luffy's above that anyways (>35.41KT) and one-shot Enel after he used Amaru, which made him even stronger than he was when he performed the 35 KT feat (Granted Luffy was serious and he flung a giant golden ball latched onto his wrist in the attack).
I'm sticking with Luffy.
- Luffy literally turned his mind off in order to just prevent Enel from predicting his movements.
People really be overselling minor precognition now. So, Musashi can read Luffy's moves, but that doesn't make him some untouchable god who can't be caught mid-attack.
- Think of it like this: Musashi see's Luffy's incoming Gomu-Gomu pistol, so he positions himself at the perfect time to aim a slash for his throat, but in response to that, Luffy flat out sees this maneuver taking place and stretches his top half backwards and folds it downwards to dodge--IN RESPONSE.
@Amlad - If you're talking when both characters were >15KT, that has nothing to do with the key we are discussing now. And Luffy's above that anyways (>35.41KT) and one-shot Enel after he used Amaru, which made him even stronger than he was when he performed the 35 KT feat (Granted Luffy was serious and he flung a giant golden ball latched onto his wrist in the attack).
I'm sticking with Luffy.
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Luffy for the reasons above
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Luffy's pain tolerance in this key include:
- In drum island, Luffy while carrying Nami and Sanji climb the mountain slope starting from the bottom of the mountain up till the pinnacle of the mountain cliff in a cold weather at the same time injured.
- Didn't care when he punched Don Krieg's spiked cape and proceed to continously punch the same cape.
- While he was a child (maybe 10 years old), he was tortured for 24 hours by Porchemy like being punched by a spiked gloves
- Don't know if this counts but, he was poisoned on Alabasta by Crocodile's poison hook, but remained conscious long enough to defeat the Shichibukai.
- Endured by continously getting trashed on by Bellamy in Jaya like smashing Luffy's face in the desk, beer, tables, etc.
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I don't know how many times I have to say it. But Luffy wouldn't be able to react in response the way you say he is. I'd suggest reading some of Musashi's fights. Specifically his last fight with Baki. It shows the ability I'm trying to explain the best in that fight. Despite Baki being directly shown as the faster of the two, Musashi is capable of attacking and countering him before he can react once he starts using precog and telepathy. Luffy wouldn't be able to react either. There is no in response movement he can make, because he would be hit before he can respond. This is a speed equal match, and that extremely hinders Luffy. An ability that works on faster opponents is not suddenly gonna not work on someone who is equal in speed. It would work better. As I said Luffy could avoid this by turning off his mind, but by the time he figures this out he'd be dead or badly hurt after taking multiple hits. At that point even if he does counter the precog he'd be overwhelmed by everything else if he isn't already dead of course.
And there's also Musashi's paralysis and pain manipulation combo that hasn't been touched on by the Luffy side of this. Luffy still has zero counter to that. Every point made in Luffy's favour is made null when Musashi can just slash him with abstract blades and then **** him up while he's in pain and can't move. This fight could be won without the use of precog at all. That's just a bonus Musashi has if Luffy decides to attack first.
And there's also Musashi's paralysis and pain manipulation combo that hasn't been touched on by the Luffy side of this. Luffy still has zero counter to that. Every point made in Luffy's favour is made null when Musashi can just slash him with abstract blades and then **** him up while he's in pain and can't move. This fight could be won without the use of precog at all. That's just a bonus Musashi has if Luffy decides to attack first.
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I'm leaning towards on Musashi tho but his durability made me skeptical about it
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@Cin
I know. Musashi not only has the pseudo-telepathy but has also fought and got good hits against Yujiro, who can predict an entire fight based on someone's stance alone or even less.
I never said that bladed weapons were a weakness. Bladed weapons are always interpreted as being able to hit a bit above the raw physical strength of their user due to being bladed.
It kinda does considering how Luffy is outskilled to the point of it not being funny against someone who has dealt with comparable if not better precog than him and basically ignores his method of countering telepathy. Again, unless Luffy's thing involves him going totally brain dead with 0 activity in his brain, your argument does not work and you act like Musashi will just let Luffy hit him.
I know. Musashi not only has the pseudo-telepathy but has also fought and got good hits against Yujiro, who can predict an entire fight based on someone's stance alone or even less.
I never said that bladed weapons were a weakness. Bladed weapons are always interpreted as being able to hit a bit above the raw physical strength of their user due to being bladed.
It kinda does considering how Luffy is outskilled to the point of it not being funny against someone who has dealt with comparable if not better precog than him and basically ignores his method of countering telepathy. Again, unless Luffy's thing involves him going totally brain dead with 0 activity in his brain, your argument does not work and you act like Musashi will just let Luffy hit him.
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Luffy really shut his mind just to stop Enel's precog tho https://youtu.be/FQlDQ4VFCFo but it's somehow not that useful since Luffy can't fight with that thing. Luffy only need 1 shot to beat Musashi but considering the skill gap I dunno what to say since Luffy is more on battle instincts.
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To be honest I see Musashi taking this
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Hmm now that I think about it yes
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I'm voting Musashi if it isn't obvious btw
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Musashi looks like someone else I've seen. I just can't tell who exact.
Nintendo name FRA
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Musashi FRA
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