- 4,175
- 1,428
We should probably just go back to talking about Kale and Caulifla or something like that.
Anything less controversial
Anything less controversial
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Most annoying character for every tier
- Thread starter DarkDragonMedeus
- Start date
- 8,438
- 3,293
- 32,347
- 20,289
@Assaltwaffle
The context of the quote has more to do with the fact that blasphemy isn't harming God so there's no victim.
Also, I really don't want to turn this into a discussion of religion, but SMT's portrayal of YHVH isn't like that out of a hatred of religion, but as an expression of the themes of the Verse, and how beings such as YHVH and Lucifer come to be.
Like, Shin Megami Tensei is essentially a Cosmic Horror Story about an eternal conflict of opposing ideologies that occurs through an endless cycle of death and rebirth across the multiverse. YHVH is the embodiment of all Law & Order, absolute and unfiltered.
In SMT, Gods and Demons are born out of people's collective thoughts, ideas and observations, yet simultaneously are beings that transcend time and thus always existed. YHVH comes from people's subconscious desire to be controled, to be ruled, to have a being who guides and commands them.
Meanwhile, Lucifer is born out of people's subconscious desire to be free. Pure, unfiltered freedom, separated from any semblance of order, hierarchy, or structure.
Naturally, both extremes are equally bad. Absolute dictatorship and absolute anarchy are both evils. The main theme of SMT is that humanity needs to carve its own path between both extremes, and find a middle-ground alternative. YHVH and Lucifer are more symbols than literal depiction of the religious figures. They are representations of opposing philosophies taken to their extremes.
Also, even speaking from a more literal sense, YHVH being "your God" is honestly very arguable. In SMT II, he is 100% Jewish. References to the Kaballah, Jewish names for God are used (Not just YHVH but also Elohim, Shaddai and Sabaoth), and his worshippers are literally waiting for the coming of the Messiah. Meanwhile in SMT IV he is the God of Monotheism, not just Christianity, but Judaism and Islam as well.
Speaking of Messiah, Jesus is never once linked to YHVH in any of the games and the most we get related to him is the Persona 3 Messiah, which is more of a symbolical representation of the Messiah archetype as a whole.
And finally, there's a lot of Gnosticism going on in SMT. The god you believe (I.e, an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being who is beyond all but also doesn't directly interefere with his creation) has less to do with YHVH and more with The Axiom, which is the true Supreme Being of SMT. The Axiom isn't a physical being with understandable motives or a personality, but is more of a conceptual entity, yet it is still benevolent.
Same thing with Gnosticism, where Yaldabaoth (The God of the Old Testament) is a false deity who created the physical world, but is actually beneath the true God (The Monad). Gnosticism actually says that Jesus came to Earth to show men towards the true God, and not the god of judgment, wrath and fire & brimstone that they worshiped. In SMT IV: Apocalypse, The Axiom is explictely stated to be the cause behind the existence of the SMT Protagonists, which are stated to be Messiahs created by the Axiom to free humanity from the conflict of Law and Chaos.
TL;DR, there's a lot more to SMT than "Lol, religion sucks". I, despite being an atheist / agnostic (Don't know really), really admire and respect SMT as a story while I hate most other Verses that are just there to bash God or religion.
The context of the quote has more to do with the fact that blasphemy isn't harming God so there's no victim.
Also, I really don't want to turn this into a discussion of religion, but SMT's portrayal of YHVH isn't like that out of a hatred of religion, but as an expression of the themes of the Verse, and how beings such as YHVH and Lucifer come to be.
Like, Shin Megami Tensei is essentially a Cosmic Horror Story about an eternal conflict of opposing ideologies that occurs through an endless cycle of death and rebirth across the multiverse. YHVH is the embodiment of all Law & Order, absolute and unfiltered.
In SMT, Gods and Demons are born out of people's collective thoughts, ideas and observations, yet simultaneously are beings that transcend time and thus always existed. YHVH comes from people's subconscious desire to be controled, to be ruled, to have a being who guides and commands them.
Meanwhile, Lucifer is born out of people's subconscious desire to be free. Pure, unfiltered freedom, separated from any semblance of order, hierarchy, or structure.
Naturally, both extremes are equally bad. Absolute dictatorship and absolute anarchy are both evils. The main theme of SMT is that humanity needs to carve its own path between both extremes, and find a middle-ground alternative. YHVH and Lucifer are more symbols than literal depiction of the religious figures. They are representations of opposing philosophies taken to their extremes.
Also, even speaking from a more literal sense, YHVH being "your God" is honestly very arguable. In SMT II, he is 100% Jewish. References to the Kaballah, Jewish names for God are used (Not just YHVH but also Elohim, Shaddai and Sabaoth), and his worshippers are literally waiting for the coming of the Messiah. Meanwhile in SMT IV he is the God of Monotheism, not just Christianity, but Judaism and Islam as well.
Speaking of Messiah, Jesus is never once linked to YHVH in any of the games and the most we get related to him is the Persona 3 Messiah, which is more of a symbolical representation of the Messiah archetype as a whole.
And finally, there's a lot of Gnosticism going on in SMT. The god you believe (I.e, an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving being who is beyond all but also doesn't directly interefere with his creation) has less to do with YHVH and more with The Axiom, which is the true Supreme Being of SMT. The Axiom isn't a physical being with understandable motives or a personality, but is more of a conceptual entity, yet it is still benevolent.
Same thing with Gnosticism, where Yaldabaoth (The God of the Old Testament) is a false deity who created the physical world, but is actually beneath the true God (The Monad). Gnosticism actually says that Jesus came to Earth to show men towards the true God, and not the god of judgment, wrath and fire & brimstone that they worshiped. In SMT IV: Apocalypse, The Axiom is explictely stated to be the cause behind the existence of the SMT Protagonists, which are stated to be Messiahs created by the Axiom to free humanity from the conflict of Law and Chaos.
TL;DR, there's a lot more to SMT than "Lol, religion sucks". I, despite being an atheist / agnostic (Don't know really), really admire and respect SMT as a story while I hate most other Verses that are just there to bash God or religion.
- 32,347
- 20,289
Finally, I am sorry if I offended you with the Emperor quote there. It wasn't inteded to be serious or reflect what I believe.
- 32,347
- 20,289
That giant post isn't even talking about religion in particular, just SMT in more detail.
- 1,446
- 301
I think he was referring to how we should stop this derailing this thread.
- 32,347
- 20,289
Okay. I took a while to write that post so I didn't see the replies.Thebluedash said:
- 4,175
- 1,428
I still stand by what I said. However Matt's analysis was very insightful and I really liked. I agree with many of his points.
- 4,175
- 1,428
Whis and Vados are awesome characters man.
- 10,687
- 6,335
I kind of have this thing where I like pretty much every character in Naruto (Part 1), except the main characters themselves. Kiba, Shikamaru, Gaara, Rock Lee, Guy and even Choji had far more interesting personalities, arcs and power sets then the main three.GreenF0rest123 said:
- 1,446
- 301
A lot of shonen characters can be fleshed out, there are 1000s of characters.GreenF0rest123 said:
- 6,105
- 955
High 6-C may be Tornado of Terror.
She's alright. But I cannot ignore some huge problems with her.
She is an asshole to the lesser heroes, or those she sees as lesser for no damn reason. She even regularly treats her own sister like garbage. She legit tried to kill Saitama. Roughed up Genos. And burried most of the heroes under a mountain of rubble by accident?
She does have somewhat reasonable reasons for acting the way she does.(If I were taken from my home at the age of 7 and experimented on. I'd be an asshole too.) But still. ONE has not been doing the best job on expanding upon this, and her past as a whole. As well as fleshing out her softer side. If this doesn't happen, her character will just be another stale, hollow tsundere midget.
I mostly like her because I see potential for her to be a better character. And to a degree, characters that don't take shit from others.
9-B? Idk. They don't have a profile here but I'd say almost the entire Destiny Verse.
9-A/8-C would be Agent Locke from Halo 5 for sure. He doesn't have a profile here, just like Destiny. But I'll do him anyways. This dude's character wasn't a bad concept. But he just seems to be there to try and give some conflict to Master Chief? But this falls flat. Most of his lines in the game are awfull. The way he's presented doesn't make him likeable I guess. He doesn't have the same charm The Arbiter had from Halo 2.
His character is flat and boring. And hinges on the assumption thst the player is familiar with the Halo EU. And even in the EU, his character still sucks.I'd pin most of this down to Halo having a god awfull writer during that time. But still.
She's alright. But I cannot ignore some huge problems with her.
She is an asshole to the lesser heroes, or those she sees as lesser for no damn reason. She even regularly treats her own sister like garbage. She legit tried to kill Saitama. Roughed up Genos. And burried most of the heroes under a mountain of rubble by accident?
She does have somewhat reasonable reasons for acting the way she does.(If I were taken from my home at the age of 7 and experimented on. I'd be an asshole too.) But still. ONE has not been doing the best job on expanding upon this, and her past as a whole. As well as fleshing out her softer side. If this doesn't happen, her character will just be another stale, hollow tsundere midget.
I mostly like her because I see potential for her to be a better character. And to a degree, characters that don't take shit from others.
9-B? Idk. They don't have a profile here but I'd say almost the entire Destiny Verse.
9-A/8-C would be Agent Locke from Halo 5 for sure. He doesn't have a profile here, just like Destiny. But I'll do him anyways. This dude's character wasn't a bad concept. But he just seems to be there to try and give some conflict to Master Chief? But this falls flat. Most of his lines in the game are awfull. The way he's presented doesn't make him likeable I guess. He doesn't have the same charm The Arbiter had from Halo 2.
His character is flat and boring. And hinges on the assumption thst the player is familiar with the Halo EU. And even in the EU, his character still sucks.I'd pin most of this down to Halo having a god awfull writer during that time. But still.
- 1,446
- 301
Ryu's just a filthy Tatsu hater.
Tier 9
I guess the celestial dragons counts? They're such a piece of shit, like it's good writing I'm suppose to him. They are the worst "human being" I seen in One Piece.
Tier 9
I guess the celestial dragons counts? They're such a piece of shit, like it's good writing I'm suppose to him. They are the worst "human being" I seen in One Piece.
- 1,673
- 289
Any character whose profile doesn't list every ability they have one way or another. because then you have to deal with people bringing them up in the middle of a match.
- 42
- 0
LMFAO why thoReppuzan said:
- 6,105
- 955
To be fair. She didn't actually try to kill Genos(Only roughed him up). And the Heroes were burried under rubble by accident mostly. The only time she's tried to murder someone was when Saitama actively provoked her. If she wanted to really kill all the heroes. She would'bve let the bullets from Boros' ship get them.Ryukama said:
Edit: I wouldn't be too sure about the worse childhood part. I'd say they're comparable. All three pretty much lost their famlies and were morphed into freaks.
- 42
- 0
lmao genos didnt have a worse childhood that tatsumaki. wtf you talking bout. sure his town was destroyed, but that was just a one time thing. tatsumaki went through years of human experimentation, rape, etc. and idk anything about zombiemans childhood so maybe you're right about that. but tatsumaki aint so bad. i dont think she ever murdered anyone intentionally.Ryukama said:
- 42
- 0
i ******* hate zeno from dragon ball super. legit the worst character to appear on the show. what the **** is the point of him being such an immature asshole? is it supposed to be funny or cute? because its not. its just ******* stupid and annoying.
- 11,486
- 7,697
Genos had literally everyone in his life that he ever loved or known killed in front of him, and he himself got mutilated so horrifically that he barely had any distinct or working human parts remaining. That can hardly be dismissed as "just a one time thing". And when has she ever been raped?
Zombieman was a test subject as well but for a far more evil organization.
Except she tried to murder Saitama, explicitly wouldn't have cared if she killed the heroes and is horribly abusive to her sister. Wanting to forcibly cut off all her ties with her friends and close ones.
Zombieman was a test subject as well but for a far more evil organization.
Except she tried to murder Saitama, explicitly wouldn't have cared if she killed the heroes and is horribly abusive to her sister. Wanting to forcibly cut off all her ties with her friends and close ones.
- 42
- 0
when did she try to murder saitama?VersusJunkie54 said:
- 6,105
- 955
when did she try to murder saitama?DeathoftheEndlesss said:
In the webcomic. I beleive she gave Saitama a couple warnings to let go of her. Then she went berserk. She only tried to after much provocation.
@ Ryukama. Genos' past is one thing. But Zombieman's past is for the most part unknown aside from being a pet project for the House of Evolution.For all we know he could've been treated like a god.
If Tatsumaki didn't care. She would've let the bullets from Boros' ship kill them. Or rampaging Dragon Level monsters kill everybody. She is a bitch, yes. But if you're implying she is 100% evil and heartless? No. She does care about her sister. Just in a shitty way.
There are characters who have done far worse things, and still get priased iirc. Looking at you Bill Cipher
- 6,105
- 955
Yeah. Hopefully ONE expands on Zombieman's past more. (Alot of acharacters are in desperate need of development imo).Ryukama said:
I kinda exaggerated some of my reasons for Tatsumaki in my post. But I did not exaggerate my reasons for Star Trek. And Certainly not Agent Locke.
- 11,486
- 7,697
I never claimed Tatsumaki is 100% evil and heartless. However she is still a horrible person who attempts to murder innocent people, is a disturbingly abusive sibling (her intentions or care for her sister are irrelevent to how she's actually treating), and is or at least claims to be indifferent to her almost killing innocent people.
Also people like Bill Cipher as a character and villain. No one denies that morally he's awful. Like how fans of The Joker don't think he's a good guy.
Also people like Bill Cipher as a character and villain. No one denies that morally he's awful. Like how fans of The Joker don't think he's a good guy.
- 6,105
- 955
You're right about her sister. But not so much about the murdering inocent people part. The only one she actually tried to kill was Saitama. And that was after signifigant provcation.Ryukama said:
- 11,486
- 7,697
Okay so Tatsumaki "only" tried to murder one innocent person, after he pissed her off, which he was only doing to stand up for the sister she was abusing. Totally okay. Also she just almost murdered a group of innocent people unapologetically claiming she wouldn't care had she actually killed them. Those things I said still stand.
- 6,105
- 955
The problem I have with your points here is that you're trying to imply that she is a mass murderer. When there's no evidence that she is. There was no indication she was going to kill Fubuki's group. She was going to rough them up so they would quite being heroes. Still a bad situation. But not as bad as you're claiming.Ryukama said:
She is a bad person, yes. But not quite as horrible as you make her out to be.
I'm dropping this though. I've made my points.And its derailing the thread a bit.
- 11,486
- 7,697
When did I say she's a mass murderer? When did I claim she was going to kill Fubuki's group? I made 2 claims, one that she attempted to murder an innocent person, two that she almost murdered a group of innocent people (the S-Classes) unapologetically and claimed to be indifferent if she actually killed them. Both claims are true, both claims are horrible and morally unjustifiable.
Is she a pure evil or an entirely irreedable complete monster with no good traits? Of course not. But she's a horrible person who has done horrible things.
Is she a pure evil or an entirely irreedable complete monster with no good traits? Of course not. But she's a horrible person who has done horrible things.
- 42
- 0
@ryu
to be fair, genos willingly became a cyborg. its not like he was forcefully mutilated. he chose to be a cyborg, and it turned him into a freaking badass. becoming a cyborg wasnt bad for him at all. but having his family and friends killed right in front of him is definitely a "future serial killer" kinda thing.
and yes, tatsumaki was raped. but you're right about everything else. tatsuamki is ******* horrible as a character. she literally tried to murder the entire fubuki group. like how is she still a hero? same with puri puri prisoner. dudes literally a rapist.
to be fair, genos willingly became a cyborg. its not like he was forcefully mutilated. he chose to be a cyborg, and it turned him into a freaking badass. becoming a cyborg wasnt bad for him at all. but having his family and friends killed right in front of him is definitely a "future serial killer" kinda thing.
and yes, tatsumaki was raped. but you're right about everything else. tatsuamki is ******* horrible as a character. she literally tried to murder the entire fubuki group. like how is she still a hero? same with puri puri prisoner. dudes literally a rapist.
- 6,105
- 955
Fair enough. Though when I say that Good Characters have done worse that Tatsumaki. Take The Arbiter from Halo. He technically murdered millions during his time with the Covenant. Though that was at a time when his people were being manipulated, its still horrible. He's done far worse that she ever did. And still liked by many of the verses fans. Same sort of applies to OPM and other verses.Ryukama said:
Dropping this for real now.
- 11,486
- 7,697
@Deathoftheendlesss
1. Genos got mutilated, then he was turned into a cyborg as a result to recover from that.
2. When was it ever even remotely stated or implied that happened to her?
3. Yeah I entirely agree about Puri. He's a funny character but really disturbing when you actually think about him.
@VersusJunkie54
I know nothing about Halo, but okay,
1. Genos got mutilated, then he was turned into a cyborg as a result to recover from that.
2. When was it ever even remotely stated or implied that happened to her?
3. Yeah I entirely agree about Puri. He's a funny character but really disturbing when you actually think about him.
@VersusJunkie54
I know nothing about Halo, but okay,
Similar threads
