Mortal Kombat 1 Discussion Thread

[KLOL506]

Shang Tsung needs to explicitly destroy Liu Kang's Hourglass to destroy his timeline, if he were able to do it himself he would have done so.

We already debunked this as. Shang Tsung explicitly states that the raw energies emanated from that fight is what created the timelines.

Destroying the Hourglass to make his timeline cease to exist is irrelevant to the actual feat that created the timelines. The two are not related.

Merging the timelines is probably done through the hourglass anyway, since that's the main tool through which all the universal shenanigans are done.

It isn't. There is no evidence to assume as such.

Splitting a timeline is unquantifiable since it's not destruction but hax.

Wrong. It falls under "significantly affecting" Tier 2 constructs.

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system which this wiki utilizes in order to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats, and the varying scopes which they can affect or create/destroy. However, it...

vsbattles.fandom.com

2-C: Low Multiverse level​

Characters or objects that can significantly affect,[1] create and/or destroy small multiverses which can be comprised of several separate space-time continuums ranging anywhere from two to a thousand, or equivalents.

1. "Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one, etc.

Them having time related hax messed with the structure of space time as a result of their collision, it's just situational space-time hax, nothing more.

No. This is also wrong as per Shang Tsung's statement. The Hourglass had nothing to do with the feat, plain and simple.

 

[KLOL506]

the energy released would also scale to physicals, given its temporal energy. Temporal energy seems to be a physicals thing in mk 11. The temporal energy in kronika's crown amps her, and she later amps the revanants with temporal energy. Liu Kang gets back his peak level of power by reabsorbing the temporal energy that was sealed off in the jade tiger in mk1

Not to mention the various statements Geras and Liu Kang share back and forth on how the temporal powers made him stronger than all the Elder Gods combined.

 

[KLOL506]

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system which this wiki utilizes in order to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats, and the varying scopes which they can affect or create/destroy. However, it...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yeah I think splitting it apart would count as significantly affecting

Correct. It indeed falls under as such.

 

[KLOL506]

IDK why people are bringing up arguments like "Shang Tsung needed the Hourglass to destroy Liu Kang's timeline" or "The Hourglass assisted in Shang Tsung vs Liu Kang in creating the timelines" when it's blatantly stated by Titan Shang that it was the raw energies emanated from their fight that caused the new timelines to be made. This is as physical of an AP feat as it gets. They would've mentioned the Hourglass having a hand in the feat if it actually contributed anything to the fight given its importance, but they didn't, not even once, further confirming that the Hourglass had nothing to do with the feat.

Plus, the Hourglass being destroyed only dooms one timeline. So how it could be responsible for spawning or destroying more is simply beyond all common sense and logic and basic narrative.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69

 

[SamanPatou]

I still believe direct evidences of them not being able to destroy a single timeline with their own powers trumps them causing the split that gave birth to countless others.

Same for them (and Kronika) needing the Hourglass to affect the timeline is greater ways, such as reshaping it or starting it anew.

Even about the merging, if Titan Shang had that much power and abilities by himself, why even setting up all that plan?

I'm not saying they didn't cause it, that they weren't stronger than the EGs or anything, I just believe they lack explicit feats of affecting structures of such scale on their own, while giving them such ap would go against what they couldn't do by themselves, according to their own words and actions.

I believe there's more ground for their raw energies to be more focused on their space-time-affecting nature rather than sheer potency.

And, while it is a secondary argument, I'd throw in there the fact that the clash of 100~ titans didn't have any cosmic scale side-effect (such as causing even more splits or worse), leading me to believe it was a one-off thing related to the existence of a single timeline in which two Time Keepers went to battle.

 

[KingTempest]

I still believe direct evidences of them not being able to destroy a single timeline with their own powers trumps them causing the split that gave birth to countless others.

Same for them (and Kronika) needing the Hourglass to affect the timeline is greater ways, such as reshaping it or starting it anew.

Even about the merging, if Titan Shang had that much power and abilities by himself, why even setting up all that plan?

I'm not saying they didn't cause it, that they weren't stronger than the EGs or anything, I just believe they lack explicit feats of affecting structures of such scale on their own, while giving them such ap would go against what they couldn't do by themselves, according to their own words and actions.

I believe there's more ground for their raw energies to be more focused on their space-time-affecting nature rather than sheer potency.

And, while it is a secondary argument, I'd throw in there the fact that the clash of 100~ titans didn't have any cosmic scale side-effect (such as causing even more splits or worse), leading me to believe it was a one-off thing related to the existence of a single timeline in which two Time Keepers went to battle.

Shang Tsung didn't want to actually destroy the timeline. He wanted to merge it into his own.

You can't muscle 2 timelines together

 

[Cyberblader90]

The initial plan was only done because for the longest time, titan shang wasnt even aware of the other timeline(s). He didnt want to destroy at first, just wipe all life in it. He came into the timeline pretending to be Kronika in order to not immediately catch the attention of liu kang and geras. Shang Tsung is all about deception to get what he wants (literally all of Aftermath).

After the initial plan gets botched, he goes for the most straight forward method of nuking the timeline and liu kang in one go, destroying the hourglass, as doing so will also kill liu kang by proxy. He also mentions he's more open to this plan now because he is now aware of all the other lines to conquer.

I believe there's more ground for their raw energies to be more focused on their space-time-affecting nature rather than sheer potency.

Temporal Energy is direct power though.

 

[KLOL506]

I still believe direct evidences of them not being able to destroy a single timeline with their own powers trumps them causing the split that gave birth to countless others.

Why bother doing the hard work when going about it the easy way would save him the time and effort from dealing with Liu Kang in the first place? Especially when the man brough Titan allies to counter him?

Same for them (and Kronika) needing the Hourglass to affect the timeline is greater ways, such as reshaping it or starting it anew.

Already debunked. Hourglass had nothing to do with the clash.

Even about the merging, if Titan Shang had that much power and abilities by himself, why even setting up all that plan?

Because Liu Kang would meddle in his affairs.

I just believe they lack explicit feats of affecting structures of such scale on their own, while giving them such ap would go against what they couldn't do by themselves, according to their own words and actions.

Like Cyber said, Shang didn't want to destroy timelines at all, he wasn't even aware of them until Liu Kang popped up on his radar. And he also chose to destroy only Liu Kang's timeline so that he could merge the rest.

I believe there's more ground for their raw energies to be more focused on their space-time-affecting nature rather than sheer potency.

Like Cyber said, Temporal Power also directly correlates to raw brute-force power.

And, while it is a secondary argument, I'd throw in there the fact that the clash of 100~ titans didn't have any cosmic scale side-effect (such as causing even more splits or worse), leading me to believe it was a one-off thing related to the existence of a single timeline in which two Time Keepers went to battle.

It couldn't have been a one off thing because of how many timelines it led to be created.

 

[Hellbeast]

I strongly disagree with the titans being tier 2 without the hourglass.

Honestly not sure why, Shang and Liu’s fight explicitly conjured multiple divergent timelines , there’s no mention of the Hourglass there at all (“mammoth energies” released is what Shang says and I believe Liu adds to this)

Secondly, don’t we have Invasion Scorpion being stated as being able to scorch timelines himself? So there’s already precedent here and that’s without leaks seemingly kinda confirming realm merging is possible.

hell, Shang’s timeline not collapsing seems like a pretty clear influence from Titan Havik himself

Immort type 2 doesn't hold up because the characters surviving each other's x ray, critical blows and such is pure gameplay, in all 4 nrs games we see them being incapacitated by much less.

Havik has entered the chat

Shang Tsung didn't want to actually destroy the timeline. He wanted to merge it into his own.

It’s stated the act would destroy the timeline by Dark Raiden though

I still believe direct evidences of them not being able to destroy a single timeline with their own powers trumps them causing the split that gave birth to countless others.

Same for them (and Kronika) needing the Hourglass to affect the timeline is greater ways, such as reshaping it or starting it anew.

Even about the merging, if Titan Shang had that much power and abilities by himself, why even setting up all that plan?

I'm not saying they didn't cause it, that they weren't stronger than the EGs or anything, I just believe they lack explicit feats of affecting structures of such scale on their own, while giving them such ap would go against what they couldn't do by themselves, according to their own words and actions.

I believe there's more ground for their raw energies to be more focused on their space-time-affecting nature rather than sheer potency.

And, while it is a secondary argument, I'd throw in there the fact that the clash of 100~ titans didn't have any cosmic scale side-effect (such as causing even more splits or worse), leading me to believe it was a one-off thing related to the existence of a single timeline in which two Time Keepers went to battle.

I mean realistically; how many Times do you see dozens of planetary characters fighting not destroy a planet for instance? We have an outright example of them having such might already

 

[KLOL506]

I mean realistically; how many Times do you see dozens of planetary characters fighting not destroy a planet for instance? We have an outright example of them having such might already

Pretty much this. This entire part just outright devolves into argument from incredulity and AP =/= DC arguments.

Plus, Invasions Scorpion being a threat to an individual timeline's existence.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Havik has entered the chat

And Kano!

 

[KLOL506]

There's some leaks for Havik's plans as well that would further solidify this. @Hellbeast can elaborate.

 

[SamanPatou]

Shang Tsung didn't want to actually destroy the timeline. He wanted to merge it into his own.

He outright says he wants to destroy it since he failed to merge it.

You can't muscle 2 timelines together

If we go by UES for AP and Hax related to time powers, then merging them would still be a muscle-feat just as splitting it would be.

After the initial plan gets botched, he goes for the most straight forward method of nuking the timeline and liu kang in one go, destroying the hourglass, as doing so will also kill liu kang by proxy. He also mentions he's more open to this plan now because he is now aware of all the other lines to conquer.

Yes, but the thing is that he can't destroy it on his own.

Why bother doing the hard work when going about it the easy way would save him the time and effort from dealing with Liu Kang in the first place? Especially when the man brough Titan allies to counter him?

Shang decided to nuke the timeline even before he learned about the existence of other timelines, reason why he went to where Liu's Hourglass was.

Already debunked. Hourglass had nothing to do with the clash.

I was meaning to say that everyone needs the hourglass in order to affect the timeline, whether they want to destroy or begin it anew.

Because Liu Kang would meddle in his affairs.

He prolly wouldn't even have needed Liu to learn about it, especially given the fact Liu had relinquished his time powers.

Like Cyber said, Shang didn't want to destroy timelines at all, he wasn't even aware of them until Liu Kang popped up on his radar. And he also chose to destroy only Liu Kang's timeline so that he could merge the rest.

Doesn't change the fact he can't destroy it by himself and needs to compromise the Hourglass.

It couldn't have been a one off thing because of how many timelines it led to be created.

I mean that all the other timelines were created when Shang and Liu clashed the first time, while the clash of two armies of titans didn't significantly affect the cosmology as far as we know.

Secondly, don’t we have Invasion Scorpion being stated as being able to scorch timelines himself? So there’s already precedent here and that’s without leaks seemingly kinda confirming realm merging is possible.

He says he vows to burn it, but even then it's rather vague and could simply mean he's going to murder everyone before passing to the next. Even then, he didn't destroy it immediately even when his rage exploded and he made that very vow.

hell, Shang’s timeline not collapsing seems like a pretty clear influence from Titan Havik himself

We don't know if it was his own doing.

Havik has entered the chat

You're probably ironic, but Havik's his own kind of thing.

I mean realistically; how many Times do you see dozens of planetary characters fighting not destroy a planet for instance? We have an outright example of them having such might already

What I mean is that so far no one could really affect any timeline in relevant ways with their own powers, always relying on the hourglass.

 

[KLOL506]

He outright says he wants to destroy it since he failed to merge it.

Gee, I wonder why. It's not like Liu Kang didn't just gather his Titan friends to fight by his side.

Shang decided to nuke the timeline even before he learned about the existence of other timelines, reason why he went to where Liu's Hourglass was.

Uh, no. It happens after Liu Kang gathers his friends.

I was meaning to say that everyone needs the hourglass in order to affect the timeline, whether they want to destroy or begin it anew.

That isn't relevant to the other timelines being forged.

He prolly wouldn't even have needed Liu to learn about it, especially given the fact Liu had relinquished his time powers.

Sooner or later he would've learned about it anyway.

Doesn't change the fact he can't destroy it by himself and needs to compromise the Hourglass.

Once again, Liu Kang and his Titan allies are standing in the way from the good-old method.

I mean that all the other timelines were created when Shang and Liu clashed the first time, while the clash of two armies of titans didn't significantly affect the cosmology as far as we know.

Argument from incredulity and AP =/= DC fallacy. Plus, the leaked files.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Man the leaked part 2 story mode looks crazy for Titan Havik

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Any idea why they chose Havik? Seems like a random pick but I can't wait to see how it goes

 

[DaReaperMan]

Any idea why they chose Havik? Seems like a random pick but I can't wait to see how it goes

Methinks Havik has the most interesting shit going for him

 

[Hellbeast]

Pretty much this. This entire part just outright devolves into argument from incredulity and AP =/= DC arguments.

Plus, Invasions Scorpion being a threat to an individual timeline's existence.
By leaks it seems the Invasions bosses in general represent timeline level threats and we know Incel Hanzo specifically is a Titan who killed his Kronika and seized the Hourglass

Yes, but the thing is that he can't destroy it on his own.


Shang decided to nuke the timeline even before he learned about the existence of other timelines, reason why he went to where Liu's Hourglass was.


I was meaning to say that everyone needs the hourglass in order to affect the timeline, whether they want to destroy or begin it anew.

Hmm I get that more but then I have to disagree, the timelines are clearly affected by Shang and Liu, both people say this

I mean that all the other timelines were created when Shang and Liu clashed the first time, while the clash of two armies of titans didn't significantly affect the cosmology as far as we know.

Again though, this feels like argument from incredulity considering how often this exact issue happens in fiction, the precedent has already been set Titans can scale to the timeline
He says he vows to burn it, but even then it's rather vague and could simply mean he's going to murder everyone before passing to the next. Even then, he didn't destroy it immediately even when his rage exploded and he made that very vow.

I feel burning implies he’s going to damage the timeline specifically rather then burning all life within it. To burn something implies the thing itself is being affected here, rather then something within the thing

We don't know if it was his own doing.

Based off precedent from both the fake and leaks I’d argue it would be

You're probably ironic, but Havik's his own kind of thing.

Ain’t I a stinker

What I mean is that so far no one could really affect any timeline in relevant ways with their own powers, always relying on the hourglass.

Eh I get that but I think we’ve had it established they can do this

Methinks Havik has the most interesting shit going for him

Any idea why they chose Havik? Seems like a random pick but I can't wait to see how it goes

Yeah if anyone would be a big bad it’d be Havik, he was the most wanted 3D Era fighter for years and probably represents the biggest departure from other villains.

plus he’s bad ass and the game kinda keeps him around

Man the leaked part 2 story mode looks crazy for Titan Havik

yeah the fact we have a Havik who’s basically running across the Multiverse, corrupting and merging timelines at will while planning to use the Kamidogu is ******* wild

 

[KingTempest]

Someone link the leaks

 

[DaReaperMan]

DaReaperMan/Kano

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can we review this before I make me CRT?

 

[Hellbeast]

Looks good

Someone link the leaks

invasions

story Mode

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Just addressing some of the "anti-feats" that might be an issue for future upgrades.

Why were Liu Kang and his Titan pals harmed and almost got overwhelmed by non-Titan evil iterations of some characters?

Titan Shang Tsung's minions are stated to be specifically "crafted" by Titan Shang Tsung to be able to fight Titans. It's in a fail text explaining what happens should Liu Kang lose a fight against them.

Basically confirming that Shang Tsung amps his minions.

Well, does Shang Tsung amp all his minions?

Very likely not. Titan Shang Tsung didn't amp those guarding the portals, as he knows Liu Kang, the only person he was threatened by, wasn't gonna be with them. Hence, regular Raiden, Quan Chi, and Shang Tsung was able to fight some of Titan Shang Tsung's evil minions.

The only ones who were amped were the ones Titan Shang Tsung brought to fight Liu Kang with Keeper of Time powers, and his Titan allies.

MK11 Ladder endings are canon, which means regular/low-tier characters are able to canonically beat Kronika, a Titan. This must mean that Titans aren't really that strong.

MK11 ladder endings has never been officially confirmed to be canon. I personally believe that the "endless possibilities" Liu Kang was alluding to aren't the MK11 ladder endings, but rather, hypothetical timelines in which other characters went through what Liu Kang did canonically, or some version of it.

Which explains why Titan Raiden, Kung Lao, and Kitana do not wear their MK11 ladder ending outfits as Keeper of Time, despite the fact that Titan Shang Tsung is wearing the same exact outfit in his MK11 Aftermath ending to indicate it being canon. They would have just as easily made Liu Kang's Titan allies be identical to their MK11 ladder endings, but didn't.

Another reason is that Kitana's MK11 ending has her becoming empress of Outworld and no longer a Time Keeper, therefore the Time Keeper Kitana we saw in MK1 cannot be the same one.

Last one is just my own conjecture, however it still makes more sense than MK11 endings being canonical.

 

[KingTempest]

Wait Liu Kang beat new era Shinnok?

 

[Cyberblader90]

Intro convos aren't generally canon

 

[Theglassman12]

@Cyberblader90 isn't one of the intros with Cetrion her saying she killed Fujin despite that not happening at all? Kinda makes it even more dubious to use.

Also idk why the time keepers not being tier 2 is being argued here, especially with Liu Kang and Shang Tsung when they’re verbatim stated to cause the timeline splits with their clashes, nothing about the hourglass had anything to do with it, at best it just amped both characters since they took its power but it would still scale regardless.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Idk if this is better suited for a more general MK thread, but I'm starting work on profiles for the 90s movie duology

 

[Hellbeast]

Oo based

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Wait Liu Kang beat new era Shinnok?

No but in his new era he depowered Shinnok

 

[JohnHendrix212]

@Cyberblader90 isn't one of the intros with Cetrion her saying she killed Fujin despite that not happening at all? Kinda makes it even more dubious to use.

Also idk why the time keepers not being tier 2 is being argued here, especially with Liu Kang and Shang Tsung when they’re verbatim stated to cause the timeline splits with their clashes, nothing about the hourglass had anything to do with it, at best it just amped both characters since they took its power but it would still scale regardless.

Because there are "anti-feats", that I've just addressed above.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

No but in his new era he depowered Shinnok

Shinnok's probably a fairly successful Outworld p o r n director lmao.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Intro convos aren't generally canon

Actually, I think they're mostly canon this time around. Most of them seems to confirm many of their Ladder endings, or allude to story mode.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Shinnok probably a fairly successful Outworld p o r n director lmao.

A what now? lol

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Can I get an answer on why you folks are adamantly refusing to use Rain's kick and putting out Tier 9/8 ratings?

 

[Dust_Collector]

I think his kick is being treated as just a funny video game move instead of him canonically kicking people around an entire planet. Plus I think it doesn't qualify under our KE rules anyway since the kombatants don't damage anything once they impact the ground, I think our rules on that are if something is carrying enough kinetic energy to destroy, let's say, a city, then they need to cause city wide damage if they impact something for it to count.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Disappointing as always VsB. Lowball everyone and also give Persona 1-A just because.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Can I get an answer on why you folks are adamantly refusing to use Rain's kick and putting out Tier 9/8 ratings?

Same reason as to why Cetrion growing planetary size: it's not shown in the story, therefore it's not canon

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Same reason as to why Cetrion growing planetary size: it's not shown in the story, therefore it's not canon

So we can't have Liu Kang's black hole, I presume? That sucks.

 

[KingTempest]

Unfortunately

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Speaking of which, weren't they fighting at the Hourglass courtyard, which is stated by Liu Kang to be "beyond the realms"? As in, it's beyond time and all that?

Does that entail anything?