More Star Wars Revisions (JUST JANGO FETT and LIGHTSABER STUFF LEFT TO DISCUSS)

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

EDIT: It's just the Jango Fett and lightsaber stuff left to discuss

Minor stuff first

Minor Outlier Removal
On Count Dooku's profile, his fight against Yoda was listed as a supporting feat for his AP. However, Dooku vs Yoda is considered an outlier, plus IIRC several statements actually say that Yoda was casual or something. So that should be removed.

Applied

Jango Fett Downgrade and Upgrade
Canon Jango Fett's speed should be downgraded to Peak Human. His fight against Obi-Wan was considered an outlier (which is why he isn't High 7-C), and thus his speed shouldn't be Massively Hypersonic.

However, Legends Jango Fett is actually quite powerful, and should indeed scale to Jedi's combat speed. To quote Eficiente:

Jango defeated & killed Dooku's apprentice as a boss fight in his game, no surprise attacks or cheap tactics. The Jedi Jango took out & killed and his fight with Obi-Wan were both done due to pure combat skills and strategic tactics. And Windu considered Jando in high regard in and way before their duel, the latter did not got stomp, he didn't notice a failure in his jetpack, failed when trying to use it and got killed due to that.

The canon versions of most bounty hunter suck but the lagends version of Jango and Boba should very much scale in terms of speed."

Here's a compilation of Legends Jango Fett's speed feats.

However he only scales in terms of speed and combat speed, not AP.

He also has a lifting strength feat of moving a Hutt. Jabba the Hutt weighs 1358 kg, and that Hutt should be similar, so Class 5 lifting strength for Jango and Boba Fett.

Speed

Jedi's Precognition
I calculate Jedi's base reactions (without Force precognition) to be Supersonic.

Currently, we attribute Star Wars' MHS and MHS+ feats to precognition. However, Eficiente disagrees.

Not sensing the clones' betrayal should not be enough, as the Force amps Jedi physically and makes them superhuman. I know our calcs attribute their speed feats to their precog, but this is bullsh*t. Also, there would be no reason to scale this to other characters, as the wording here maybe suggests.

Personally I am fine either way but if we decide that Eficiente is correct then we should remove the "Wall level normally" stuff from the Jedis' profiles as well.

Refer to below

Speed Scaling
Right now, we scale all the powerful High 7-C Jedi to Mace Windu's Massively Hypersonic+ feat. The original justification for this:

Now on one of Kepekley's blogs, I mentioned that Windu's feat would not scale to everyone. Now I said that because I was then of the opinion that we should scale Windu's MHS+ feat only to Yoda and Palpatine (no explanation needed) as well as Mother Talzin (she has traded blows with Windu and is just below Sidious in power). But then I remembered that Dooku faced off against Yoda and Maul briefly faced off against Windu and Palpatine by himself (though he obviously got the crap kicked out of him in the latter case). So I guess it might be okay to scale Force Adepts at strong Jedi Master level and Jedi High Council member level to the MHS+ feat? This would scale to Grievous as well obviously since he can keep up with combatants of such level (such as Ventress, who is quite swift herself) and overpower the likes of Padawan Ahsoka (who can only put up a defensive effort against him).
	~ Soldier Blue​

I, however, disagree with this. Dooku vs Yoda is considered an outlier, plus Yoda is casual. And Palpatine was extremely casual in his fight against Maul IIRC. If we don't scale High 7-C characters to 6-C from a few outlier fight, then I see no reason their speed should scale too.

Apparently another justification for the scaling is Kit Fisto fighting Sidious for a few seconds before dying, but it was clear in that fight that Sidious was much faster, as he killed 3 Jedi Masters in mere seconds.

Not to mention Anakin, probably the most powerful Jedi at that time other than Yoda and Mace Windu, couldn't perceive Windu and Sidious fighting.

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine? Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Correction: This is actually a Legends quote. Regardless, my point still stands.

Updated suggestion: "Naturally Supersonic (Scaling/Feats), with Force amplifications Massively Hypersonic normally (Scaling/Feats), up to Massively Hypersonic+ with enough effort (Scaling/Feats. Although this quickly consumes his/her stamina and only lasts a few minutes before exhaustion)"

Other stuff

Lightsabers
To shamelessly quote Eficiente again:

We should rank the profiles with the characters' physicality and a different AP or a "higher" with lightsaber/s (obviously empowered by the Force), that part being above their AP & durability. We have something somewhat like that on profiles but it's weird, it looks like durability negation but everyone knows it's not that.

And DarkDragonMedeus:

Plus, the Lightsaber profile in general looks iffy, since it's mostly the wielder that determines how powerful a Lightsaber is like most melee weapons and not so much the Lightsaber generating that much energy.

General Grievous's durability should probably be something like "At least Large Town level, likely far higher" since he states he is indestructible and Obi-Wan is unable to harm him either with physical blows or his lightsaber.

"At least"
I suggested making the most powerful Jedi like Dooku, Anakin, maybe Obi-Wan "At least High 7-C to note that they are more powerful than the average High 7-C Jedi.

Eficiente disagrees though.

Also I really don't like the "At least", the characters with it can still get harm by the characters without it, the real differences they have is in skill, the scale of their Force abilities and how some have some abilities others don't. There is some more power but not a lot.

Still I think at least Anakin and Dooku should be noted to be superior to High 7-C.

Conclusion

• Remove Yoda vs Dooku from Dooku's profile Applied
• Downgrade Canon Jango Fett to Peak Human speed - Update: Most people seem to be fine with this
• Upgrade Legends Jango Fett to Relativistic+ and Class 5 Update: More input needed
• Decide whether Jedi needs precognition and actively using the Force, or that they are augmented by the Force all the time Refer to below
• Downgrade everyone to Massively Hypersonic except Yoda, Sidious and Windu Updated suggestion: "Naturally Supersonic (Scaling/Feats), with Force amplifications Massively Hypersonic normally (Scaling/Feats), up to Massively Hypersonic+ with enough effort (Scaling/Feats. Although this quickly consumes his/her stamina and only lasts a few minutes before exhaustion)"
• Change lightsabers on characters' profiles to be "higher with lightsabers", as well as rewrite the lightsaber profile - Update: Still being discussed
• Possible at least for the most powerful Jedi at the time of the Republic, although some people disagree - Update: Most people seem to disagree

EDIT: Also we might possible downgrade Legends Palpatine and those who scale's speed.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with

• Removing Yoda vs Dooku from Dooku's profile
• Downgrading Canon Jango Fett to Peak Human speed
• Upgrading Legends Jango Fett to Massively Hypersonic and Class 5
• And changing lightsabers on characters' profiles to be "higher with lightsabers", as well as rewriting the lightsaber profile

I disagree with

• "General Grievous's durability should probably be something like "At least Large Town level, likely far higher" since he states he is indestructible and Obi-Wan is unable to harm him either with physical blows or his lightsaber." There was likely a confusion there, Obi-Wan can harm him with his lightsaber and the indestructible thing was only said in Legends afaik. Canon GG still got no damage from Obi-Wan's physical blows tho.
• "Downgrade everyone to Massively Hypersonic except Yoda, Sidious and Windu" I agree with this normally but -- and I was going to bring this in my own SW thread -- I believe good enough Jedi can concentrate the Force on only their physical stats to briefly keep up with more powerful foes. This seems consistent to me, probably in both canon and Legends, in the former characters flee when they run out of stamina.
• The possible at least for the most powerful Jedi at the time of the Republic

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Nvm about the Grievous thing then, misunderstood.

Large Town level should be fine for him for tanking Obi-Wan's blows.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

For the "concentrate the Force on their physical stats" thing, firstly, what's the source for that; and secondly, does that mean they are briefly Island level as well?

 

[ByAsura]

Where are canon lightsabers stated to be dependent on the user? Legends characters can certainly amp their weapons, even to the point matching lightsabers, but I can't find anything for canon force-users. Also, Finn was able to match Kylo's blade on multiple occasions, and there's orange kohlen crystals designed to cut through forcefields that normal kyber-crystal-based lightsabers can't in Master and Apprentice.

Plus, the Lightsaber profile in general looks iffy, since it's mostly the wielder that determines how powerful a Lightsaber is like most melee weapons and not so much the Lightsaber generating that much energy.
Kanan seems to disagree, though he is talking to Sabine, a non-force sensitive, about the Darksaber.

• Energy constantly flows through the crystal. You're not fighting with a simple blade as much as you are directing a current of power.

The rest is fine, I suppose.

 

[Eficiente]

It wasn't stated, it's just logical. Without a Force user (& scaling) a lightsaber's AP is pretty low, even with a Force user the same happens if they are portrayed weak. See here for more.

For the "concentrate the Force on their physical stats" thing, firstly, what's the source for that; and secondly, does that mean they are briefly Island level as well?

There is not a source directly stating that and they would not be Island level. For now everything I have to prove it is just every instance of someone fighting someone stronger, surviving for x reasons, and ending up tired whereas their opponent isn't, indicating that they did what they could with the Force while their opponent was fighting normally. I later need to find sources saying that fancy Force powers take more concentration to use, which may help that, and as something minor in Legends there is this fight where a Jedi could not keep up or defeat Grievous but he could still hold his own for some time.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So shouldn't we make them "Massively Hypersonic+ in short bursts" or something? Similar to Reverse-Flash (CW)'s profile.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also it is true that lightsabers do generate energy, but its only by the Force user that they are up to Tier 7 or Tier 6.

They still have some pretty good Tier 8 feats though.

Also Kylo Ren was already wounded, exhausted and emotionally distressed when fighting Finn, and still effortlessly outclassed him.

 

[Eficiente]

So shouldn't we make them "Massively Hypersonic+ in short bursts" or something? Similar to Reverse-Flash (CW)'s profile.

I would put it like this: "Naturally X, with Force amplifications Massively Hypersonic normally (Scaling/Feats), up to Massively Hypersonic+ with enough effort (Scaling/Feats. Although this quickly consumes his/her stamina and only lasts a few minutes before exhaustion)"

Speaking of Kylo, his "Small Building level with armor against directed energy weapons (Able to survive being hit by Chewbacca's Bowcaster [a weapon superior to a blaster] while distracted over being mentally torn by killing his father Han Solo)" needs to be removed, I don't remember what book (iirc the novelization of TFA) stated that he used the Force to defend himself from that.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

That seems fine to me.

Should be fine. Although I find it weird that Rey and Kylo Ren have higher physical durability than the Republic Jedi and Luke.

 

[ByAsura]

Speaking of Kylo, his "Small Building level with armor against directed energy weapons (Able to survive being hit by Chewbacca's Bowcaster [a weapon superior to a blaster] while distracted over being mentally torn by killing his father Han Solo)" needs to be removed, I don't remember what book (iirc the novelization of TFA) stated that he used the Force to defend himself from that.

Here's the exert from The Force Awakens novelization. It doesn't say he did and directly implies the opposite.

It wasn't stated, it's just logical. Without a Force user (& scaling) a lightsaber's AP is pretty low, even with a Force user the same happens if they are portrayed weak. See here for more.

It's neither logical nor stated in canon (once again, I'm talking about canon, not Legends). Also, all of those points (as I directly showed) fall flat, such as a lightsaber being more powerful in a force-user's hands.

"The idea of materials having lightsaber resistance would make no sense."

No, it makes even less sense if lightsaber users have variable strength depending on force-sensitivity.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Well Anakin did cut Mace Windu's arm despite being significantly weaker, so there's that.

 

[ByAsura]

I think that's Legends, unless it's just another part of the Clone Wars, which exists in both continuities. If it's the latter, then I say to you pretty much any force-user can be cut by a lightsaber if they're not telekinetically stopping it

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I share pretty much the same thoughts as Eficiente

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I'm actually supporting your point, cuz Anakin is significantly weaker but his lightsaber can cut Windu.

So all lightsabers should be 6-C or what?

 

[ByAsura]

When did he actually cut Windu? Continuity and context is important.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

At the end of Windu vs Sidious.

Although this might just be Windu focusing on Sidious.

 

[ByAsura]

It probably is just Windu letting his guard down and not allowing it to cut him. Weaker force users have blocked lightsabers with trouble.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Windu was kind of distracted when Anakin cut his arm off. And yeah, the reason why Lightsabers shouldn't be Tier 7/6 without their wielders is based on a number of things. They often struggle to cut through Tier 8 body armors when those Lightsabers are picked up by fodder storm troopers; not at all like when a Jedi Master uses it. So Lightsabers are comparable to various Jedi when held by a Jedi or for characters like Grievous, it's his pure muscular strength. But it's not like Lightsabers generate Tier 7/6/5 levels of energy naturally.

 

[ByAsura]

When? Gideon, for example, cut through a TIE Fighter like it was nothing. In Empire Ascendant and The Mandaloria, a TIE's cockpit is shown to be blaster-proof.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Darksaber was simply Tier 8, but Boba Fett and Jango Fett are equiped with Besker. And armor that protects against Lightsaber strikes, and they're still way weaker than most Jedi and Sith and no where near as durable.

 

[ByAsura]

According to Ultimate Star Wars, Beskar is outright designed to be lightsaber-resistant, and it was used to combat the Jedi during their war.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, I know that. But that doesn't mean it has Tier 7/6/5 durability given Lightsabers are only that strong when a strong Jedi wields them.

 

[ByAsura]

Again, it was used to combat the Jedi's lightsabers.

 

[Eficiente]

Here's the exert from The Force Awakens novelization. It doesn't say he did and directly implies the opposite.

My bad, it was the Last Jedi novelizatio.

It's neither logical nor stated in canon (once again, I'm talking about canon, not Legends). Also, all of those points (as I directly showed) fall flat, such as a lightsaber being more powerful in a force-user's hands.
"The idea of materials having lightsaber resistance would make no sense."

No, it makes even less sense if lightsaber users have variable strength depending on force-sensitivity.

..But I linked something that was explicitly not using that as a point, but just regular strength alone. Like when characters above Tier 8 in any verse use things in the environment to harm others, but weaponized.

When? Gideon, for example, cut through a TIE Fighter like it was nothing. In Empire Ascendant and The Mandaloria, a TIE's cockpit is shown to be blaster-proof.

Minor, but "like it was nothing" is exaggerated. It took him a while, sitting well the Darksaber's AP to that thing's durability.

According to Ultimate Star Wars, Beskar is outright designed to be lightsaber-resistant, and it was used to combat the Jedi during their war.

Definitely not minor; most Jedi kinda suck next to all the popular ones, they all die by stuff that we usually we everyone defend themselves against. And this makes perfect sense given that there is not a set amount of power anyone has to have to be a Jedi.

For the stuff about the Order 66, I don't remember where I saw it but the clones surrounding the Jedi and attacking them like that was a portrayed as a military strategy aimed to overwhelmed them in something that would be too much for them while knowing they had superhuman speed and could reflect the shots if attacked normally. At least in Legends.

 

[ByAsura]

Where does it say that?

Edit: It says he "instinctively contained it with the force" and the blow would've been fatal otherwise. I agree with the downgrade.

As I explained before, these still stop Jedi lightsabers, such as the orange crystals. Also, what actual evidence is there that a lightsaber in a Jedi/Sith's hand is more powerful?

Even Kanan, Qui-Gon Jin and Grievous don't instantly carve through metal hulls and blast doors, this because it's not AP, it's how fast they cut and dramatic effect. The point is, he had little to no trouble actually piercing the cockpit and carving through it.

Ok, and? It still shows that Beskar is even resistant to a Jedi's lightsaber and not the fodder material Medeus implied it was. Also, we have no real idea of how powerful Jedi from 5,000 years before the Clone Wars were in canon. Yoda and Windu are more powerful than them, but they're also stated to be the strongest Jedi ever by canon guides, IIRC.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, there also does exist a lot of fodder Jedi that are way weaker than the likes of Anakin. Anakin is a prodigy where even as a Padawan he was much stronger than most Jedi Knights. And various main stream Jedi are very similar. If Lightsabers were truly that powerful on their own, it makes 0 sense for them to be unable to cut through an suit of armor that's not even close to being anywhere near as durable those of AT-ATs. Bounter Hunters wearing Besker get killed by things way weaker than Tie Fighter blasts all the time.

 

[Eficiente]

As I explained before, these still stop Jedi lightsabers, such as the orange crystals. Also, what actual evidence is there that a lightsaber in a Jedi/Sith's hand is more powerful?

Idk the context of those orange crystals. Again, there is no evidence simply stating this, it's just something that makes more sense.

Even Kanan, Qui-Gon Jin and Grievous don't instantly carve through metal hulls and blast doors, this because it's not AP, it's how fast they cut and dramatic effect. The point is, he had little to no trouble actually piercing the cockpit and carving through it.

That's something one would say to justify our stats as facts that are always there, what's really happening there is that the characters are being portrayed with much lower stats than what they should have if the autors could analyze the verse as we do. This connects perfectly with one major point said in the conversation with Weekly; lightsaber are the only weapon that has its tier via powerscaling and not via its own feats, when by that logic blasters should scale to OP Jedi too as that's what they die to the most by and number 1 thing they need to always defend themselves against.

Ok, and? It still shows that Beskar is even resistant to a Jedi's lightsaber and not the fodder material Medeus implied it was. Also, we have no real idea of how powerful Jedi from 5,000 years before the Clone Wars were in canon. Yoda and Windu are more powerful than them, but they're also stated to be the strongest Jedi ever by canon guides, IIRC.

I don't see where the first point leads to. We having no idea of how powerful the Jedi were back then doesn't really change anything.

 

[ByAsura]

They're just that, basically crystals that are more rare and powerful than Kyber. Look up Kohlen or read Master & Apprentice if you can. I'd give quotes, but I can't right now.

But it's true if you watched even a single episode of the Clone Wars, Rebels, or the films. Nobody ever instantly carves out a section of metal. No, the truth that you have no real evidence, so you're grasping at as many straws as you can.

It's still resistant to lightsabers from force sensitives, as are many things, such as Cortosis. Also, this apparently doesn't take place too far before the Sith War, where the likes of Darth Bane existed.

@Medeus Where's your evidence for this? Also, it just says Jedi in general, not specific or fodder Jedi, and Beskar still exists after the Empire collapsed.

 

[Eficiente]

I will see if I have time to read Master & Apprentice after first reading some other SW books, for everything else I don't have anything more to say, so I leave like that.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Let's agree on the non-controversial stuff first should, we? Does anyone agree should be fine to remove Dooku vs Yoda, as well as the Jango Fett stuff (I guess that scales to Boba too)?

 

[ByAsura]

Sure.

@Efficiente Sorry if I came off as rude in that last post. I wasn't exactly responding at the best of times.

 

[Eficiente]

It's all good. Especially since we were disagreeing with each other for a while. Also my username just has one F (it's in Spanish).

 

[ByAsura]

Ok.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still find it weird for Besker to have just some kind of weird power nullification that only works on Lightsabers. I also know about the Crystals used in Lightsabers to empower them, but I still don't think it's reasonable to assume all ligthsabers are Tier 7/6/5.

Also, it's not like a bunch of Younglings are anywhere near as powerful as the likes of Obi-Wan. Grevious has also killed numerous Jedi before and yes there is a certain Padawan who's consistently defeated him one on one.

Also, I recall Luke was actually strong enough to cut through Besker with ease due to his strength.

 

[ByAsura]

Why's that so weird? This is fiction. Given the existence of materials capable of stopping all types of lightsabers, pretty much no matter who holds it, the opposite is more likely.

Younglings are clearly nowhere near Greivous, but a stronger character can still cut the same things with their lightsabers and withstand blows from others.

Edit: Adding to the list of lightsaber resistant stuff, a Jedi Master during Order 66 would've taken a long time to cut through some blast doors.

 

[ByAsura]

Speaking on this, I think we should remove Kylo's lightsaber feat. According to the Stormtrooper next to him, the Zillo Beast is indestructible, and Kylo's entire plan was to enter the shuttle and go inside the monster's mouth, where he cut through its stomach. This is clearly just a fictional trope and he couldn't kill it without going inside the Zillo Beast.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with that, and was already thinking it was weaker from the inside.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I will remove the Dooku outlier since that seems non-controversial enough.

I'd like more input on the Jango Fett stuff, even though no one seems to disagree with that for now. Same with the speed scaling stuff (Eficiente's suggestion).

 

[ByAsura]

I agree with Janjo's speed being downgraded (Medeus obviously does as well), but I'm neutral on his Legends feats.