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he said it thereAntvasima said:
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More new Phoenix Avatar Feats
- Thread starter ΚΟΜΙΞ
- Start date
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This seems good. I would have a 3A key too though... Also Cyclops (as White Phoenix) managed to hurt God Doom who is 1A. So Phoenix should be at least High 1B, possibly 1A. In other realities the other abstracts fear it the most.Mr. Redic said:
Also Phoenix Cyclops should have 3 keys Phoenix Five Cyclops|Dark Phoenix|White Phoenix (not of the Crown, that's unique to Jean).
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I would agree with @KOMI & @Mr.Redic... However... Because of the absurd amount of high-ends from Green Phoenix / Dark Phoenix that are likely tier 2 and higher ... I'm torn as to what to put them at as a medium for their feats or just label them all outlier despite the sheer amount of them (Though I'm not complaining as long as an upgrade is given:
- Rachel and Necrom fiasco (at least 5 2-A/High 1-B feats right there)
- Uatu stating all of existence was threatened by Rachel
- Galactus calling Phoenix Rachel a threat greater than Impossible Man who was tier 2 to tier 1 in the comic he showed up in.
- Rachel can control portions of the White Hot Room and fought off the avatar of the Phoenix Force
- Teen Grey could fight the avatar of the Phoenix Force as well.
- Chaos Wave shenanigans
- Phoenix Avatar performing a 2-A/High 1-B feat
- Green Phoenix's Transcending the infinite boundaries of time and space
- Dark Phoenix being called "Boundless"
- Green Phoenix fighting the M'Krann Crystal (it wasn't Dark Phoenix, whose far, far stronger)
- Dark Phoenix stated to be as dangerous as the M'Krann Crystal, which is stated to be a Multiversal Threat to All Multiverses and even Omniversal in scope. Then stated to be a Omni-versal Force of Destruction later on. The feat is already on the Phoenix Profile
- Calling Rachel the strongest Captain Britain member when two characters were amped by 2-A/High 1-B power sources at the time of the statement, and Jamie Braddock who warped the White Hot Room casually.
- Fighting Onslaught temporarily (albeit got stomped) who was stated on panel to be transcending the limits of time & space of the Multiverse due to Franklin's powers , and showed power greater than a Universal Abstract at bare minimum (who is supposed to be upgraded to 2-A)
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Seed Jean's feats as Phoenix are logically far above others in any form (except 1 or 2 occassions) since according to the Force itself Jean's power as Phoenix is unmatched.
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That... Makes a lot of sense.╬Ü╬ƒ╬£╬Ö╬× said:
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What about the PF 5?
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@Peter Phoenix Force 5 may be somewhat comparable with Scarlet Wtich (since they managed to cause her trouble) and not too far off from White Phoenix Hope, albeit weaker.
I'm not sure where Matthew Malloy would fall under while we are discussing who scales to which version of the Phoenix. However, he's far stronger than the Phoenix Five at bare minimum and Proffessor X called Young Malloy stronger than everyone he's fought, which would include Dark Phoenix (as it clearly wasn't holding back despite being an outlier for him... Though after looking at how easily he handled the PF 5 it's hard to argue now...)
I'm not sure where Matthew Malloy would fall under while we are discussing who scales to which version of the Phoenix. However, he's far stronger than the Phoenix Five at bare minimum and Proffessor X called Young Malloy stronger than everyone he's fought, which would include Dark Phoenix (as it clearly wasn't holding back despite being an outlier for him... Though after looking at how easily he handled the PF 5 it's hard to argue now...)
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Please stop interfering Seed. You generally do not have a good sense of judgement regarding the actual scale of the feats that you bring up, and will only serve to turn the Marvel and DC threads you participate very chaotic and incomprehensible, so they do not lead anywhere. I have talked with you about this repeatedly previously.
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For the record, Dr. Doom beats Cyclops in the very next panel, then he breaks his neck, so it's still High 1-B.
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... I am here to help.... Not hurt this discussion. Most of the time it isn't even me doing the majority, just providing evidence and giving support whenever asked for some. There hasn't been any chaos yet and it's been civil and constructive. I was asking questions about how people scale and what to do about it. Literally every thread I've recently been on at the start of 2019 hasn't been derailed into chaos... That was last year. I haven't made a single Marvel Revision thread... And I've done my absolute best to fix every mistake I did from last year, and haven't done a single thing from before. So.... May I ask what is the problem ?
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@Seed
The feat list that you referred to seemed very exaggerated and speculative as usual, such as referring to the Impossible Man as a tier 2 character just because he made a lot of copy superheroes of unspecified power levels, and Galactus made a metaphorical statement.
The story that you refer to was simply Chris Claremont's way of saying that the "Act of Vengeance" crossover was silly in terms of only being about character fights.
The feat list that you referred to seemed very exaggerated and speculative as usual, such as referring to the Impossible Man as a tier 2 character just because he made a lot of copy superheroes of unspecified power levels, and Galactus made a metaphorical statement.
The story that you refer to was simply Chris Claremont's way of saying that the "Act of Vengeance" crossover was silly in terms of only being about character fights.
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@Ant
Pardon me for any disrespect... But that isn't what I believe at all .
With all due respect... I heavily doubt you know the context and reasoning for every single one of those on the feat list based on you utilizing seemed in your sentence. None of that stuff (except for Impossible Man, which I agree with) was exaggerated or speculative. If exaggerated I wouldn't have a low end for it, which I do for all those feats. I've read the stories three times to get the right context and feat.
Literally the reason you believe so is because you believe Marvel should only be analyzed through fixated lenses of right and wrong. You believe without a doubt there is only one way to look at Marvel's feats, and if it doesn't follow that proceedure, you deny it regardless of how much evidence is presented. That is the fact we can only look at a few authors for consistency, which isn't Marvel, nor will it ever be so long is it set up the way it is now. I've seen you do the same tactics over and over... And that's why you and me can not agree on consistency as you use this same way of looking at feats
Marvel is made up of several authors, telling the story in several different ways using several different cosmologies. To truly analyze Marvel for feat consistency is to use several feats from variety of Marvel comics, regardless of the different cosmologies or any sets of differences.If there is enough consistency from each set, it can be argued and debated thoroughly. It cannot if you are not open enough to at least consider the possibility that this method works.
Marvel has been debated using this for a long time, and I've seen this in several Marvel Threads. When this tactic was used, not only did the upgrade run smoothly, but it was usually heavily agreed upon without much room for debate. It was only when those came in with "but looking at 1 comic feat or 1 scan disproves it , and I disagree with anything regardless of evidence" is the reason the thread comes crashing down.
Please don't take this as a personal attack. This was just a habit I've seen you do for at least a year, like you have told me... I felt it was only fair , as a friend, and a fellow debater (If i'm even worthy to be called that anymore...), to mention this to you. I'm not sure if you will consider changing, and I heavily apologize if this sounds offensive to anyone involved, as that was not my intention.
Pardon me for any disrespect... But that isn't what I believe at all .
With all due respect... I heavily doubt you know the context and reasoning for every single one of those on the feat list based on you utilizing seemed in your sentence. None of that stuff (except for Impossible Man, which I agree with) was exaggerated or speculative. If exaggerated I wouldn't have a low end for it, which I do for all those feats. I've read the stories three times to get the right context and feat.
Literally the reason you believe so is because you believe Marvel should only be analyzed through fixated lenses of right and wrong. You believe without a doubt there is only one way to look at Marvel's feats, and if it doesn't follow that proceedure, you deny it regardless of how much evidence is presented. That is the fact we can only look at a few authors for consistency, which isn't Marvel, nor will it ever be so long is it set up the way it is now. I've seen you do the same tactics over and over... And that's why you and me can not agree on consistency as you use this same way of looking at feats
Marvel is made up of several authors, telling the story in several different ways using several different cosmologies. To truly analyze Marvel for feat consistency is to use several feats from variety of Marvel comics, regardless of the different cosmologies or any sets of differences.If there is enough consistency from each set, it can be argued and debated thoroughly. It cannot if you are not open enough to at least consider the possibility that this method works.
Marvel has been debated using this for a long time, and I've seen this in several Marvel Threads. When this tactic was used, not only did the upgrade run smoothly, but it was usually heavily agreed upon without much room for debate. It was only when those came in with "but looking at 1 comic feat or 1 scan disproves it , and I disagree with anything regardless of evidence" is the reason the thread comes crashing down.
Please don't take this as a personal attack. This was just a habit I've seen you do for at least a year, like you have told me... I felt it was only fair , as a friend, and a fellow debater (If i'm even worthy to be called that anymore...), to mention this to you. I'm not sure if you will consider changing, and I heavily apologize if this sounds offensive to anyone involved, as that was not my intention.
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I do not take offense, and agree that Marvel uses wildly different cosmologies and scaling from writer to writer, which is why I find it so hard to find a coherent structure, without ending up with extremely exaggerated scaling from the many matchups between characters.
Alright, I will restore the deleted posts, but we still need more staff input to get anywhere.
Alright, I will restore the deleted posts, but we still need more staff input to get anywhere.
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Thank you. I understand why you think so, Ant. I do. I used to think similar until I saw another way of looking at Marvel. It makes things a lot easier.... But sometimes taking the easy route isn't enough for certain fictional settings. I respect your opinion and will continue to try to help as much as possible.
I'll try to get some staff members here today... But I cannot guarantee they will respond here by the end of today.
I'll try to get some staff members here today... But I cannot guarantee they will respond here by the end of today.
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Doctor Strange (Modern) is generally presented at nowhere near the level of Doctor Strange (Classic).
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Bump.DIdn't Dr.Strange get that permanent power up from the Yggdrassil that allowed him to keep up with Mephisto (who previously curbstomped the absolute crap out of him beforehand, even with Strange amping himself with several amps as Classic he still got godstomped) , or was that actually temporary?
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Yes, he kept it. Just look at he's page.The 2nd Existential Seed said:
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I thought so. I read all the recent comics, and not once did it hint at him losing his new amp from Yggdrassil (which honestly even before the revisions should be 2-C if not 2-A) .... But that's severely off-topic
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Nice to see you back and all Sera... But: Which Phoenix preferably, because I can argue evidence for almost all of them sans those who are not Jean , Rachel, or Hope related Phoenix avatars. If referring to the Full Phoenix however:
Far, far superior to the Phoenix Avatars, which one feat was previously accepted as High 1-B before, and have done numerous feats & scaling to such levels in several varying comics (the most notable being the Captain Britain Comics, which has the most feats on this level due to the Tower feat, a feat replicated by those treated far weaker than the Phoenix Force [Who are treated even weaker than Rachel Summers utilizing her Dark Phoenix state] and those who are empowered by the Tower treat the Bird as far above them) . Somewhat comparable to the Multi-Abstracts, has feats of fighting Multi-Abstract entities and White Phoenix was treated comparable to Mistress Death.
A much, much weaker incarnation of the Phoenix is feared by the Universal Abstracts who the weakest has performed several Tier 1 feats, but a revision of those avatars of the abstracts would mean a general revision for a lot of Marvel Characters.
Far, far superior to the Phoenix Avatars, which one feat was previously accepted as High 1-B before, and have done numerous feats & scaling to such levels in several varying comics (the most notable being the Captain Britain Comics, which has the most feats on this level due to the Tower feat, a feat replicated by those treated far weaker than the Phoenix Force [Who are treated even weaker than Rachel Summers utilizing her Dark Phoenix state] and those who are empowered by the Tower treat the Bird as far above them) . Somewhat comparable to the Multi-Abstracts, has feats of fighting Multi-Abstract entities and White Phoenix was treated comparable to Mistress Death.
A much, much weaker incarnation of the Phoenix is feared by the Universal Abstracts who the weakest has performed several Tier 1 feats, but a revision of those avatars of the abstracts would mean a general revision for a lot of Marvel Characters.
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Within the mentioned Captain Britain story, the Rachel Summers Phoenix force host explicitly stated that, unlike Necrom, she couldn't use the force at a high enough level to even throw moons or planets.
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Ant... That's '''completely''' contradicted by what Captain Britain presented and the multiple feats and scaling of a high caliber within the Necrom vs Rachel storyline. If anything that's a severe low showing.
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Word of God and Author's Intent mean nothing without quite a bit to back it up... Not one specific lowball statement that all the other feats (5) contradict.
Authors have been wrong before... Have you seen Demonbane state that his verse was only High 1-B when it was 1-A ? Authors make mistakes before, and using a statement that is completely contradicted from the beginning of the story to it's conclusion isn't the best strategy unless backed up by feats.
Exaggerated ? It was the first set of feats done in the Necrom vs Rachel Storyline which was described in detail to the point it is hard to exaggerate when it happened right there in the beginning :
Authors have been wrong before... Have you seen Demonbane state that his verse was only High 1-B when it was 1-A ? Authors make mistakes before, and using a statement that is completely contradicted from the beginning of the story to it's conclusion isn't the best strategy unless backed up by feats.
Exaggerated ? It was the first set of feats done in the Necrom vs Rachel Storyline which was described in detail to the point it is hard to exaggerate when it happened right there in the beginning :
- The Phoenix does the High 1-B feat, which again completely contradicts the intent of the author
- The tower feat is portrayed as High 1-B, described as connecting to every level of creation
- Necrom overpowers the one who anchored the Phoenix there to perform the feat and stole his power.
- Someone who was shown High 1-B in the past fleed from battle and stated he is a threat to Creation
- Rachel stated stronger than her allies , who re-did the Tower feat on panel and clearly and explicitly stated it was effecting Higher-Dimensions
- Necrom was confident he could absorb the tower personally and viewed those who did the above feats as Ants, even stating he woul destroy them now if not stopped by Rachel
- Rachel fighting Necrom for a extensive period of time.
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There is a massive difference between established in-story statements of facts, and inofficial replies to fan questions.
In any case, can you link to the relevant scans that back up your interpretation of the Excalibur lighthouse being intended to be infinite-dimensional?
And even if it was, a High 1-B Meggan Puceanu would be a ridiculously high outlier.
In any case, can you link to the relevant scans that back up your interpretation of the Excalibur lighthouse being intended to be infinite-dimensional?
And even if it was, a High 1-B Meggan Puceanu would be a ridiculously high outlier.
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In-story statements function exactly the same. If contradicted by significant other statements, they become void.
I will once I get home, since I am at College right now and can't supply scans currently as they are on the computer at hoem
About it being a Outlier: One, Meggan was amped... Stupidly so. Secondly, She also merged her power with Captain Britain along with it to accomplish the feat, which attuned her with all creation. So it isn't so much an outlier as it is only applicable when she absorbs enough energy, which would require a key as she also held back the Chaos Wave once before temporarily by absorbing Otherworld , Earth, and the Starlight Citadel. So it is clear her 'Absorption' key requires a bit of variety.
I will once I get home, since I am at College right now and can't supply scans currently as they are on the computer at hoem
About it being a Outlier: One, Meggan was amped... Stupidly so. Secondly, She also merged her power with Captain Britain along with it to accomplish the feat, which attuned her with all creation. So it isn't so much an outlier as it is only applicable when she absorbs enough energy, which would require a key as she also held back the Chaos Wave once before temporarily by absorbing Otherworld , Earth, and the Starlight Citadel. So it is clear her 'Absorption' key requires a bit of variety.
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So you think that Meggan's and Captain Britain's combined energy absorption should be interpreted as an infinite order of infinities above the scale of destroying infinite universes at the same time, based on your own personal interpretation, even though a more powerful character in the same story explicitly couldn't even throw planets via telekinesis? That is completely insane, and exactly the reason why I find arguing with you so exasperating.
It would lead to a scaling nightmare in which any Marvel character of the same level would also be considered as High 1-B.
Please read our Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics page over and over and over, until you start routinely following our conventions, because I do not have the energy to deal with this kind of nonsense anymore. Thank you.
If that is the completely out there direction that this thread will take, it may be better if I close the discussion.
It would lead to a scaling nightmare in which any Marvel character of the same level would also be considered as High 1-B.
Please read our Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics page over and over and over, until you start routinely following our conventions, because I do not have the energy to deal with this kind of nonsense anymore. Thank you.
If that is the completely out there direction that this thread will take, it may be better if I close the discussion.
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I highly doubt Phoenix Cyclops is "limitless". He got blitzed by Sam Alexander, and a failing full-power Bleeding Edge.
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Well, the entire Phoenix Force might be a multiversal level High 1-B abstract like some other cosmic entities, although I don't remember it ever being shown as such.
The problem here is that Seed wants to give such vastly exaggerated tiers to any regular hosts for the Force, along with the regular superheroes Meggan and Captain Britain, which would end up as a scaling nightmare for a lot of other Marvel characters.
The problem here is that Seed wants to give such vastly exaggerated tiers to any regular hosts for the Force, along with the regular superheroes Meggan and Captain Britain, which would end up as a scaling nightmare for a lot of other Marvel characters.
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To be honest, I can only really see the Phoenix is Tier 3, likely Tier 2, as the hosts are Tier 4, and the higher hosts Tier 3.
Seriously, Phoenix Force Cyclops on the level of God Doom? He got his neck snapped when Doom stopped playing around.
Seriously, Phoenix Force Cyclops on the level of God Doom? He got his neck snapped when Doom stopped playing around.
