More Kirby stellar feats

[Fastsword88]

Well, I recommand you check Mario's profile. And also Sonic's. FF7 isn't limited to one game, mind you. FF3's protagonist appears in Dissidia as well, and through his same game the 2nd best feat is planet level and doesn't even scale to him, while the 1st best feast is universal. And several other examples. I think you got the phrase that "the best feats are almost always in the minority".

I'm assuming ? I posted the link right there in one of my previous comments. Triple Deluxe IS a source material, and there you go again using irrelevant minor detail like "they used the word "the" and not "a". Grammar time. No one cares about it. That game was out years before Triple Deluxe anyways.

 

[Xolon]

Well, I recommand you check Mario's profile. And also Sonic's. FF7 isn't limited to one game, mind you. FF3's protagonist appears in Dissidia as well, and through his same game the 2nd best feat is planet level and doesn't even scale to him, while the 1st best feast is universal. And several other examples. I think you got the phrase that "the best feats are almost always in the minority".
I'm assuming ? I posted the link right there in one of my previous comments. Triple Deluxe IS a source material, and there you go again using irrelevant minor detail like "they used the word "the" and not "a". Grammar time. No one cares about it. That game was out years before Triple Deluxe anyways.

A miiverse post is word of god. Not the source material. Source material takes precedence over word of god. And the moon is definitely not in the stratosphere in Super Star/Super Star Ultra.

Isn't Dissidia a crossover game and thus non-canon?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Technically speaking, Dissidia is canon, and the game itself makes that rather clear with how the Warriors of Cosmos and Warriors of Chaos were pulled from their original worlds. However, the scaling present should very likely not be used, due to the number of contradictions surrounding the verse's general power (Laguna being able to fight Cloud of Darkness comes to mind).

 

[Fastsword88]

We see the moon in the stratosphere in the source material. And I said that there are different moons, the moon you see in SSU isn't even a sphere but a crescent. And... in the end, you're just using random excuses to escape the truth, you don't expect Nintendo to flawlessly follow through a series without throwing inconsistencies now do you ? (though there's none in this case, it's the 1st time we see Pop Star's atmosphere clearly) And that's the case with most similar video game franchises.

Don't matta, ask the FF experts if you want.

 

[Antvasima]

@Fastsword The new feat seems unquantifiable. All that we see is a wave of energy consuming the ground and presumably entire planet behind Kirby. We do no know its full effect. And even if Kirby would be able to lessen its local effect, we have no guarantee that he would remotely be able to stop all of it.

 

[Xolon]

@Fastsword88

Really now? You know there are different phases of the moon right? The moon in Super Star/Super Star Ultra is undoubtedly THE MOON. It is just in the phase where it looks like a crescent at the time the game takes place.

 

[Fastsword88]

@Antvasima : I see. Though, we know part of the wave's effect, it's the same that destroyed all of the parallel universe at the end of the game. In that scene where Kirby pushes it away, we can see the consumed background having stars (red ones close, blue ones far away). While it's true Kirby didn't stop it permanently, wouldn't it require that much power to push it away repeatedly ? It wouldn't have been possible if he was weaker than that right ?

 

[Antvasima]

Slightly affecting something on a local level does not remotely mean affecting it in its entirety, especially if you are going for multiversal power tiers.

 

[Xolon]

I'm dissappointed in whoever thought changing the profile was a good idea at this point. The upgrade was still in the middle of being debated. Another reason why i'll always trust the OBD wiki as a source more than the vs battles wiki since although they're behind on things at times (due to a lot of profiles being lost) they don't jump the gun either.

 

[Fastsword88]

Xolon, you can get mad at me and blame me as much as you want, but leave the rest of the VS battles wiki alone.

It's not about it being in the "middle of getting debated"(what was debated anyways now ? The moon ?), are you seriously getting angry over a fictional world getting upgraded ? That's sad. :/

 

[Unclechairman]

I'd like to repost this from the last thread since how we approach this will likely affect how we approach rating other franchises with similar issues.

Scaling Kirby to Claycia brings up the question of how to scale characters in series that don't have a clear and linear scale of power. Kirby plots work on the Monster of the Week trope, and no matter how high the current monster's showings are, Kirby always defeats them in a similar fashion. As a result, you could have him flipping from defeating Galactic and Universal level villains to struggling with Planetary level characters (ala Sonic the Hedgehog) with no explanation for the disparity. Thus, we are left with several options on how to scale Kirby and co:

1. Scale them to the most frequent showings in their series (Planet/Large Planet, in this case). This seems to be what we are currently doing with other series like American comics and Sonic the Hedgehog.

2. Scale them to the highest showing that they can be scaled to (the Universal Magolor, in this case). This avoids having to constantly reevaluate what the "most common showings" are whenever a new game or two comes out, but as this is not the current standard we apply to other series (or we would have Universal Super forms in Sonic), we would have to give a good explanation for the differences in standards or face accusations of bias.

3. Rate them by their own feats only. This circumvents all scaling issues, perhaps making them much easier to evaluate, but, again, this is different from the standards we apply to other series, and so we would probably have to give a good explanation for that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we tend to evaluate on a case-by-case basis, but for self-contained franchises, unless a feat is blatantly contradicted or completely out of place, we usually tend to go with the higher showings.

As for American Comics, as I detailed in this page, they are a special case due to the hundreds of different writers involved having completely different standards. I have attempted to find a balance in the sense that we have gone by the higher relevant to the story feats, but not the completely out of place outliers, much less the regular showings.

Hence, we do not rate Hulk as High 3-A for shaking an infinite number of planets or Thor as 3-B for preventing 1/5th of the universe being destroyed, but we do not rate them as Building level either, even though that really is their general displayed scale of power.

 

[Otakuzoid]

Wait...did Hulk and Thor actually those things?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but then they returned to normal levels right afterwards.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, on the other end, Thor has been knocked unconscious by a regular gun, and Hulk strangled by a regular snake. Both of these instances are also considered extreme outliers, in the other direction.

 

[Otakuzoid]

I can see why comic book characters are hard to classify.

 

[Antvasima]

Yup.

 

[Otakuzoid]

Oh, I have a question about this upgrade. What makes scaling to Magolor and outlier while scaling to Dark Nebula is ok? (Just wondering)

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I understand, Dark Nebula is fairly consistent with Kirby's other feats, whereas Magolor is not.

 

[Fastsword88]

That's right Otakuzoid, pretty much what Ant said, along with some other reasons discussed in the middle of this thread.

 

[Otakuzoid]

Ok. Just wondering.

 

[Xolon]

As far as I understand, Dark Nebula is fairly consistent with Kirby's other feats, whereas Magolor is not.

How exactly? Magalor and Dark Nebula are the only kirby bosses that aren't Large planet + or featless. It is in no way consistent for Kirby to be Multi-Solar system level +.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we have to try to find some sort of balanced middle way in terms of the feat scaling. We cannot ignore every single proof that Fastsword88 has brought us.

 

[Xolon]

Well, we have to try to find some sort of balanced middle way in terms of the feat scaling. We cannot ignore every single proof that Fastsword88 has brought us.

This is one feat. How is it "every single proof". Nothing else supports it so It's not consistent. Thus why I think it should be classed as an outlier at best.


The vagueness of the scene just makes it seem like circumstantial evidence to me. It needs something else to back it up but it doesn't have that. No other feat on its level (Magalor feat is way above it and also an outlier), no game text supporting it, no clear indication the scene was meant to show destruction.

 

[Fastsword88]

You just keep repeating the same already discussed things again and again, Xolon.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I vaguely recall that Fastword88 has shown us several different feats over a span of several months, but that we did not accept them until he showed us the latest explicit destruction of multiple star systems.

We cannot accept these types of feats for lots of other game franchise characters but treat Kirby especially disfavourably.

That said, I handle a massive amount of different topics, and may misremember.

 

[Antvasima]

However, Fastsword did mention above that "Beating Claycia, Dark Crafter, Dark Nebula, Necrodeus, and Dark Nebula's supposed creator 02" were all Multi-Solar system level feats.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

By feats:

Dark Nebula (and by extension 02 by relation) should likely be 4-A.

Claycia and Dark Crafter should not.

Don't know about Necrodeus. Always remembered him being featless.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Xolon]

By feats:
Dark Nebula (and by extension 02 by relation) should likely be 4-A.

Claycia and Dark Crafter should not.

Don't know about Necrodeus. Always remembered him being featless.

So it's as I said. It is inconsistent for Kirby to fight characters much more powerful than Large Planet level +. Magalor and Dark Nebula are the only two on a much higher level through feats (i'm unsure if 02 should even scale to Dark Nebula). so 2 or 3 kirby bosses out of all that he's fought. I think it is reasonable to declare these as outliers for Kirby until more feats come up to prove their consistency. So kirby should be downgraded back to Large Planet + for the time being. Especially since Magalor and Dark Nebula are entirely different levels of outlier (Magalor's much higher) so they don't even support eachother.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I recall Fastsword presenting various other feats on previous occasions, and regardless we still need to find some form of middle road for Kirby's scaling. We may not be able to use the most extreme feat, but we do not need to use the lower feats either.

 

[Xolon]

Well, I recall Fastsword presenting various other feats on previous occasions, and regardless we still need to find some form of middle road for Kirby's scaling. We may not be able to use the most extreme feat, but we do not need to use the lower feats either.

I wouldn't consider Large Planet level + Kirby's lower feats. They'd be mid end. They happen the most consistently and are what most Kirby bosses that perform feats are calced at.


I haven't seen these previous feats so it's hard for me to comment on them. However the fact that they weren't accepted back then leads me to believe they were misinterpretations. So previous feats that weren't accepted can't really be used to support a newfound feat that is iffy.

 

[Otakuzoid]

Most people accepted it and 2 admins never exaclty objected to it.

 

[Fastsword88]

Xolon, your "outlier" argument was already killed by Antvasima with these 3 phrases :

-"For self-contained franchises, we usually tend to go with the higher showings."

-"We do not rate them (Hulk & Thor) as Building level either, even though that really is their general displayed scale of power." : In other words, even with the Marvel/DC characters who are one of the most inconsistent characters in history, we don't go with the "consistent" showings, otherwise Hulk & Thor would be in tier 8... which is outright wrong.

-"We do not need to use the lower feats either." : Skod's thread about "early Kirby villains ranking" made 1 thing clear : tier 5 aren't the "consistent" feats... they're the "lowest" feats, and probably the rarest too. Onwards, Kirby kills Nebula, his creator Zero TWICE (Key word)in 2 different games (think about this for a sec... it's overkilling the "outlier argument" even further), temporarily overpowers a universe consuming wave, ect, ect, until Magolor.

So yeah, if you still think that it's logical to go with the lowest feats, ignoring the better feats, and barraging this franchise with an exaggerated outlier system that no other series suffer from here... then wow.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that this should conclude the topic then. It has likely gone on for too long, so I will close it now.