More DOOM upgrades

[TyphonEX]

Lots of Doom proposals lately! I have some of my own proposals as well for additions to the profiles in Doom, along with explanations and justifications. Proposals will be bolded:

Resistance to existence erasure for Doomguy: As prophesied, Doomguy exists as a constant in all possibilities infinitely into the future, which indicates that there is no possibility where the Doom Slayer does not exist, thus making EE impossible. This should go up to at least 6D since his fate manip is 6D for himself as shown in his profile.

Note that this is even though Davoth can unmake reality in the same way that he created everything, which is from nothing, and which he actually tried to do to to the Doom Slayer at that moment. Since his wording indicates that he's going to reverse the process of creation out of nothing, this means that Davoth had the ability to reduce creation to nothing, meaning Davoth has existence erasure himself. As supporting evidence, Davoth winning would've determined the fate of existence itself and his death causes demons outside of Hell to completely lose their connection to reality, or stop existing.

I also think that this applies even if someone has the ability to create possibilities that do not already exist. This is because Davoth has fate manipulation potent enough to make the Doom Slayer able to override the fact that the Khan Maykr is "destiny-bound" to rule until the next Maykr is born, effectively creating a previously-impossible possibility. Basically, Doom Slayer keeps the ability to be unable to be erased across all possibilities even if a foe has the ability to create previously impossible possibilities through fate manipulation. Or in other words, Doomguy's EE resistance via it being impossible would be immune to a layer of fate manip. This would also give Doomguy +1 layer of fate manip in general since he'd have to bypass Davoth's fate manip. I don't know how that would be expressed in the profile, but I do want this to be established. Now of course, this only applies if Davoth's fate manip is combat applicable and passive, so I have to propose that as well. My justification for this is the fact that Doomguy got passive fate manip (which is obviously combat applicable as it allows him to kill the Maykrs) by simply absorbing part of Davoth's essence, indicating that this combat-applicable passive fate manip is literally just part of Davoth himself rather than an ability he actively created. Thus Davoth would have this himself.


Resistance to illusions, sense, and perception manipulation (5-D): As he is incorruptible, the Doom Slayer is immune to Hell's "demonic visions" and "whispers of demons pushing him towards madness." Keep in mind that the Betrayer was plagued without relent, so the fact that we never ever see him affected by this supports it, and this couldn't have just been some one off thing we might have missed. Sense and perception resistance should honestly already be there considering that the profile already has him immune to Cacodemon bile which inhibits perception.

Neutral Vision: Doomguy can see, fight, and kill specters, which are believed to be invisible to the point where one's keeper failed to see it and opened the pen, thinking it already escaped. Even if this is ONLY a "belief", which is highly unlikely considering the fact that the higher-ups who actually know about spectres in the first place would probably know their stuff rather than falling for ungrounded rumors, it would still show that specters are so invisible that this is considered to be a plausible story among those who actually know about spectres.

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Evaluations-​

Doomguy resistance to existence erasure via impossibility (and normal resistance if we accept him resisting Davoth):

Davoth existence erasure:

Doomguy's EE resistance via impossibility working even against Davoth's fate manip:

Combat applicable passive fate manip for Davoth/remove "Unknown whether or not it is combat applicable" here and specify that it is passive:

+1 layer of fate manip for Doomguy:

Resistance to illusions and sense and perception manipulation:

Neutral Vision:

 

[ShionAH]

I believe

• Note that this is even though Davoth can unmake reality in the same way that he created everything, which is from nothing, and which he actually tried to do to to the Doom Slayer at that moment. Since his wording indicates that he's going to reverse the process of creation out of nothing, this means that Davoth had the ability to reduce creation to nothing, meaning Davoth has existence erasure himself. As supporting evidence, Davoth winning would've determined the fate of existence itself and his death causes demons outside of Hell to completely lose their connection to reality, or stop existing.

Is a much better argument than "impossibility" so I actually agree with EE for Davoth and Resistance to Doom Guy.

I agree with Fate Manipulation being Combat-Appicable and Doom Guy gaining a layer due to overwriting Davoths Fate, others make sense too.

 

[Spicy78]

as much as i would want to agree, i disagree in EE and fate manipulation. they all seem like a huge case of headcanon scaling

"as all things are made by my hand, so they shall be unmade" very much refers to the fact that davoth is so strong that he can destroy everything not by literally erasing it, but by how a wrecking ball can destroy a building, and he uses the antonym "made" to make a rethoric expression to highlight just how powerful he is. hell, he literally says "starting with you" and proceeds to fight us normally: he needs to kill us conventionally in order to "destroy us", with he screen turning into white just seeming like he's bfring us the boss fight battlefield. he isn't even surprised that we're just fine after supposedly having erased us from existence

khan makyr being destiny-bound to rule urdak since birth is similar of how our kings are destined to be kings of their respective kingdoms. it's not that they literally manipulate causality and the fate of events in order to make themselves kings, it's that are made kings thanks to being born with certain characteristics (in the case of our kings, being born from the wife of the current king, his father; and in the case of the khan makyr, being the strongest individual of his race) that their societies value as suitable for governing. so no, not fate manipulation

as for the whole "doomguy remaining a constant in all timelines = him being able to resist EE"... i dunno, that seems like a huge NLF. hell, since doomguy exists everywhen, he should be immune to any hax possible because, you know, he is alive everytime! you can see the point. that needs further elaboration (and some actual feats) in order to take it into consideration

i agree with illusion/perception/sense manipulation resistance and neutral vision for doomguy tho

 

[TyphonEX]

khan makyr being destiny-bound to rule urdak since birth is similar of how our kings are destined to be kings of their respective kingdoms

No, it isn't. No one ever says a king is "bound by destiny" to rule unless they actually believe that they're fated by God or some other supernatural form of destiny to rule. Even if we go by the dictionary, equating "destiny-bound" with "destined" is invalid because the latter is a vague term that can refer to something assigned to someone or a guess someone might make about their future ("destine" can literally mean something as mundane as "intend for" "send to somewhere") whereas "destiny-bound" outright mentions the concept of destiny which is either the literal future or a force that controls the future (which makes sense considering that the Maykrs literally know the future as it exists within their god-mind). So no, the characteristics that make someone fit for something are not "destiny."

hell, since doomguy exists everywhen, he should be immune to any hax possible because, you know, he is alive everytime!

That's not NLF, we literally already accept that Doomguy is immune to all the hax in his verse. We seem to also accept on the profile that Doomguy straight-up always wins due to his fate manip, so if you don't have fate manipulation you can't beat him (not sure I accept that, but it's what the profile says).

And either way, Doomguy still got fate manip potent enough to make it so that he'd eventually destroy the Maykrs along all infinite possibilities by simply absorbing part of Davoth's essence, so Davoth should have passive combat-applicable fate manip like Doomguy and Doomguy's would be layered as a result.

I'll probably respond to the EE stuff later.

 

[Spicy78]

No, it isn't. No one ever says a king is "bound by destiny" to rule unless they actually believe that they're fated by God or some other supernatural form of destiny to rule. Even if we go by the dictionary, equating "destiny-bound" with "destined" is invalid because the latter is a vague term that can refer to something assigned to someone or a guess someone might make about their future ("destine" can literally mean something as mundane as "intend for" "send to somewhere") whereas "destiny-bound" outright mentions the concept of destiny which is either the literal future or a force that controls the future (which makes sense considering that the Maykrs literally know the future as it exists within their god-mind). So no, the characteristics that make someone fit for something are not "destiny."

the definitions of "destined" you listed ("intend for" and "send to somewhere" are just other meanings of the word. the word destined is not vague, its a polysemic word and, in fact, the meaning that is taken into account in this discussion has the word "bound" (the aception followed by "fate", with "fate" being a synonym of "destiny") as a synonym. so being destined to something is, in fact, a synonym of being "destiny-bound" to something



also, in the past it was said that kings are bound by destiny to their thrones thanks to the divine-right theory of kingship. now, as we know (unless someone here is an unironic absolutist lol) kings weren't actually bound by fate to rule ever; but rather the divine-right theory of kingship serves as a justification as to why someone is a king in the first place

the same justification is being used in urdak's case, just that instead of the leader having his authority derived from god, the leader IS a god itself (and no, being a god in fiction doesn't instantly grant you fate manipulation, you need to prove that you can actually manipulate destiny, something that kahn makyr hasn't done)

That's not NLF, we literally already accept that Doomguy is immune to all the hax in his verse. We seem to also accept on the profile that Doomguy straight-up always wins due to his fate manip, so if you don't have fate manipulation you can't beat him (not sure I accept that, but it's what the profile says).

damn

And either way, Doomguy still got fate manip potent enough to make it so that he'd eventually destroy the Maykrs along all infinite possibilities by simply absorbing part of Davoth's essence, so Davoth should have passive combat-applicable fate manip like Doomguy and Doomguy's would be layered as a result.

hm. fair enough. agree with fate hax

 

[TyphonEX]

the word destined is not vague, its a polysemic word and, in fact, the meaning that is taken into account in this discussion has the word "bound" (the aception followed by "fate", with "fate" being a synonym of "destiny") as a synonym. so being destined to something is, in fact, a synonym of being "destiny-bound" to something

That means it's vague though, doesn't it? It has many meanings, and some of those meanings have nothing to do with actual fate or supernatural phenomena. We can't always know what "destined" means in a particular context, so it's vague. That is the problem. We don't know if it involves anything supernatural or not. On the other hand, "destiny-bound" explicitly mentions destiny which absolutely has to do with supernatural phenomena regarding the future. We KNOW it is supernatural. So there is no problem here.

the same justification is being used in urdak's case

Here's the difference: whereas divine right is obviously not absolute or even necessarily accurate, the codex entry in Doom is written by VEGA, a super-intelligence who provides objective info the the Doomguy in order to help him with his quest. His info is reliable and we have no reason to think he's just going to make up flowery shit that doesn't help the Doomguy out. In other words, divine right is not reliable, VEGA's codex entry IS reliable. When VEGA says that each Maykr is "destiny-bound" to lead until the birth of the next Maykr, we can reliably know that each Maykr is indeed bound by a supernatural force governing the future (ie fate manip) to rule until the next Maykr is born. And the Doomguy passively negates that.

I gotta go to sleep and the EE stuff requires too much brainpower for me so I'm gonna have to respond to that later. Maybe I'll even change my mind on it lol.

 

[ShionAH]

Vump

 

[Theglassman12]

I’m not seeing existence erasure, let alone resistance to it with this logic, same with the layered fate hax as it doesn’t remotely mention anything of bypassing resistances. Everything else looks fine

 

[ShionAH]

I’m not seeing existence erasure, let alone resistance to it with this logic

I think the better argument is how Davoth says he'll "unmake" existence which he created from the void/nothingness which may imply he was literally talking about erasing everything to nothingness including Doom Slayer.

About the Fate layer, would it make it layered since Davoth was defenseless against Doom Slayers own Fate Manipulation, even though he can control fate himself?

 

[Theglassman12]

I’m still not seeing that as Existence erasure without the elaboration on him just deleting things from existence a la Zeno from Dragon Ball.

Thats not how layered hax works, for that to be layered, Davoth has to resist fate hax and Doomguy overpowers his resistance in the first place. Without it thats baseline at best and that’s assuming Doomguy’s fate haxing him in their fight.

 

[ShionAH]

I’m still not seeing that as Existence erasure without the elaboration on him just deleting things from existence a la Zeno from Dragon Ball.

He is saying he is gonna unmake everything, returning them back to their original state which is literally nothingness/void

This is kinda textbook EE tbh...

Thats not how layered hax works, for that to be layered, Davoth has to resist fate hax and Doomguy overpowers his resistance in the first place. Without it thats baseline at best and that’s assuming Doomguy’s fate haxing him in their fight.

A fate hax that can overpower another fate hax isnt layered? If so I guess its fine but like that feels like a crime lol

 

[Theglassman12]

That’s literally no different than any creator line of “I have created you and I will be your end” statements that have no elaboration to imply EE.

It’s not since again, layered hax is only defined by overpowering one’s resistance to an ability in the first place.