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Monkey D. Luffy vs Hashirama Senju

CiscoTheSoto

CiscoTheSoto

3,684
2,320
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Luffy's AP: 39.8 gigatons in base, higher in Gear 2, 119.2 tons with Gear 4: Snakeman, 477.6 gigatons with Gear 3, higher in Gear 4: Boundman, 1.9 teratons with Strongest attacks

Luffy's LS: At least 9.05e+13 kg in base (Class T), higher with Gear 4

Hashirama's AP: Much higher than 2.65 gigatons in base, ~1 Teraton with Wood Golem

Hashirama's LS: Higher than 3.93e+11 kg in base (Class G), Higher than 6.97e+14 kg with Wood Golem (Class T)
 
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XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Oh for ****'s sake, here we go again....
Click to expand...
I know, right? I'm just messing with everybody :LOL:

Here, I think Hashirama needs some extra help compared to Madara, since he doesn't have Kurama nor does he have the Susanoo's energy blades or attacks. This makes it harder for Hashirama to hurt Luffy, at least I believe. What's more, the Wood Golem doesn't protect him the way that the Susanoo does, so he'll have to be extra careful. That's why I thought speed needed to be equalized in this match as well. However, this is still not a stomp and I believe it could be very interesting.

Here, Hashirama could very well win by using his superior LS and the special properties of the Wood Style. Using the wood golem, Hashirama is capable of restraining Luffy and draining his energy. I assume that this tactic would work just as well on Haki as it does Chakra, since they're both energy within the body. This would severely weaken Luffy and allow him to defeat him easily. In addition, since Hashirama has prior knowledge of Devil Fruits, he can use Water Style to submerge Luffy in water and make him weaker, or just use the Golem to grab Luffy and throw him into a lake.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
Luffy's AP: 39.8 gigatons in base, higher in Gear 2, 477.6 gigatons with Gear 3 or Gear 4: Snakeman, higher in Gear 4: Boundman, 1.9 teratons with Strongest attacks

Luffy's LS: At least 9.05e+13 kg in base (Class T), higher with Gear 4

Hashirama's AP: Much higher than 2.65 gigatons in base, ~1 Teraton with Wood Golem

Hashirama's LS: Higher than 3.93e+11 kg in base (Class G), Higher than 6.97e+14 kg with Wood Golem (Class T)
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119.2 with Snakeman, 477.6 with Gear 3rd, higher w/ Boundman, 1.9 with strongest
 
"Hashirama has prior knowledge of Luffy's rubber body and Devil Fruits." Give him sea prism stone while at it gahdamn-

CiscoTheSoto said:
I assume that this tactic would work just as well on Haki as it does Chakra, since they're both energy within the body
Click to expand...
They're literally NOTHING alike to be equalized in this manner? That just feels convenient if you ask me.
CiscoTheSoto said:
Hashirama has prior knowledge of Devil Fruits, he can use Water Style to submerge Luffy in water and make him weaker, or just use the Golem to grab Luffy and throw him into a lake.
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Future sight hard counters. Also Gear 4 can fly. "Throwing" Luffy will just have him bounce back before he actually hits the water. I hope you know Hashi having "prior knowledge" means he might tacticize this, and Luffy would just end up reading him like an open book via intent sensing based future sight. Luffy would know Hashi's tactics before Hashi even starts using them in this case.

Hashirama's at a far, far greater disadvantage here than Madara, since at least the latter could use his chakra blasts, susano'o blade, susano'o defense- Hashi's wood golem would get broken easier, and.. Well- he can't BLUDGEON Luffy even if he tries for obvious "because I'm rubber" reasons.
 
Luffy's advantages are his greater AP and stamina, his more unique techniques, and his Kenboshoku Haki. Luffy would likely be unaffected by any genjutsu that Hashirama might try to use, and he likely wouldn't be injured by any physical attacks that the Wood golem might use. However, he's still got some other challenges to face.

Hashirama could put Luffy to sleep using the Advent of a World of Flowering trees. It's possible to resist the technique with willpower, so Luffy wouldn't be fully knocked unconscious, but one can only escape the effects of the technique if the trees are destroyed or if they stay above the pollen cloud. Since the branches are part of Hashirama's wood release, they should have Low 6-B durability, meaning Luffy would have to either waste a lot of time and energy destroying the branches, or he'd have to constantly stay afloat, which would be very difficult for him. It might also affect Luffy's senses enough to leave him open for attack.

Hashirama's Wood Golem in Sage Mode is comparable to Madara's Susanoo, meaning that even Luffy with Gear 4 wouldn't be able to chip away at the defenses very easily or attack Hashirama's wood barriers which he can create to protect himself. Another added benefit of Sage Mode is that it gives Hashirama increased senses. While I don't believe that the senses can compare to Luffy's Kenbonshoku Haki, they shouldn't be underestimated either. When Madara absorbed Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and entered Sage Mode, he was capable of dodging EMS Sasuke's attacks and Tobirama's Flying Raijin Slice, as well as both of their surprise attacks, in spite of Sasuke's evolved Sharingan giving him greater analytical prediction and kinetic vision, as well as Tobirama's amazing speed. This was a blind Madara who had literally just gotten Sage Mode and was very inexperienced with it, so imagine it when used by a Hashirama with regular eyes who mastered Sage Mode.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
Hashirama could put Luffy to sleep using the Advent of a World of Flowering trees. It's possible to resist the technique with willpower,
Click to expand...
Which Luffy canonically did vs Monet. He was being put to sleep and disagreed.
CiscoTheSoto said:
or he'd have to constantly stay afloat, which would be very difficult for him.
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Why? If He's in Gear 4 he shouldn't even struggle with this. Luffy can float, hover and somewhat fly in G4 after all. If he resists the sleep inducement he might start to fall mid-air but go back to floating as soon as he's awake again.
CiscoTheSoto said:
Another added benefit of Sage Mode is that it gives Hashirama increased senses. While I don't believe that the senses can compare to Luffy's Kenbonshoku Haki, they shouldn't be underestimated either.
Click to expand...
Definitely nowhere near that; This is post-Kata Luffy who can just foresee the dodge and intercept it before Hashi even realizes said interception's about to come.
Also if Luffy gets too bothered by the wood release he'd hang back and spam culverin from great distances, homing in on Hashi with every strike. Push comes to shove- switch to snakeman and spam Black Mamba from a distance, which is a tactic he took with Katakuri as well, the latter needing FS to dodge it while at it.
 
I've changed the key for Luffy from the Post-Katakuri fight to Beginning of Series Luffy. Wasn't sure why I did the Post-Katakuri Fight in the first place, as I only did it for his fight with Madara to deal with the Majestic Attire Susanoo combination that he'd use, and it just gives him unnecessary advantages here. And also, in regards to Luffy resisting Monet's sleep inducement, it clearly took affect for a few seconds. This would be long enough for Hashirama to grab Luffy with his Wood Release Arms to restrain him or drain his chakra, and by the time Luffy snapped out of it, he'd be incapable of breaking free of Hashirama's wood arms due to Luffy's inferior LS.
 
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CiscoTheSoto said:
to restrain him or drain his chakra, and by the time Luffy snapped out of it, he'd be incapable of breaking free of Hashirama's wood arms due to Luffy's inferior LS.
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Luffy doesn't have chakra

And if you think it means he'll drain his Haki, then he can't do anything after that other than hold him, which is useless. It's not like it'll incap him.

On top of that, Hashirama in character only absorbs with the dragon which is getting deleted.
 
KingTempest said:
And if you think it means he'll drain his Haki, then he can't do anything after that other than hold him, which is useless. It's not like it'll incap him.
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Pretty sure that the verse equalization rules state that supernatural energy that characters use will assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use. Regardless of whether or not Hashirama can drain his Haki or not, you're overlooking Hashirama's power and his tactics.
KingTempest said:
On top of that, Hashirama in character only absorbs with the dragon which is getting deleted.
Click to expand...
If Hashirama knows about Luffy's rubber body, then he'll obviously use different tactics if he realizes that regular punches won't work. And you're talking about the dragon that could restrain full power Kurama, the one that has sharp teeth constructed by the wood release, enhanced by Sage energy, meaning it is also Low 6-B? You think Luffy could delete that dragon? With with its higher AP than Gear 4 Luffy and higher LS as well, Hashirama could easily just crush Luffy with the dragon's jaws, or just keep him restrained so he can submerge Luffy in water and incapacitate him.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
Pretty sure that the verse equalization rules state that supernatural energy that characters use will assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use. Regardless of whether or not Hashirama can drain his Haki or not, you're overlooking Hashirama's power and his tactics.
Click to expand...
You guys said he will absorb Luffy's chakra. Luffy doesn't have an ability close to chakra.
You guys said he uses a jutsu that he has only used once in canon
You guys said that he uses a jutsu that will absorb his energy, when it has only in character absorbed the chakra from tailed beasts and tailed beasts alone and nobody else.

Trust me. I know all of his tactics, and they suck in this scenario
CiscoTheSoto said:
If Hashirama knows about Luffy's rubber body, then he'll obviously use different tactics if he realizes that regular punches won't work. And you're talking about the dragon that could restrain full power Kurama, the one that has sharp teeth constructed by the wood release, enhanced by Sage energy, meaning it is also Low 6-B? You think Luffy could delete that dragon? With with its higher AP than Gear 4 Luffy and higher LS as well, Hashirama could easily just crush Luffy with the dragon's jaws, or just keep him restrained so he can submerge Luffy in water and incapacitate him.
Click to expand...
He doesn't scale to Kurama's bijuudamas.
He scales to Kurama's physicals, which are High 6-C+ like the profiles say.

On top of that Luffy is smaller than the tooth, and will break the tooth, the teeth, and the entire face.

The durability of the wood dragon ≠ the durability of small portions of the wood dragon. A square meter isn't High 6-C, which means Luffy can still break off portions of it. Plus, the dura of the dragon is inferior to his 2 handed attacks and his King Kong Gun.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
That's not how Verse Equalization works. The Energies have to be very similar for it to be equalized. Haki and Chakra are not similar.
Click to expand...
Regardless, the other points still stand. Now that I've changed Luffy's key, the increased senses of both Luffy and Hashirama are arguably comparable and Luffy won't have future sight to help him predict Hashirama's multiple Wood hands which will target him. Hashirama can also just seal and restrain Luffy using the Sage Art: Gate of Great Gods. He can change the size of the gates however he chooses and could use them to keep Luffy restricted, even piling them on top of one another. What's more, these gates have the ability to render the target docile and negate their willpower, and on Hashirama's page, it's listed as willpower manipulation. Luffy doesn't have any resistance to willpower manipulation on his profile, and I'm not sure it would fall under the same category as mind manipulation.
 
CiscoTheSoto said:
Regardless, the other points still stand. Now that I've changed Luffy's key, the increased senses of both Luffy and Hashirama are arguably comparable and Luffy won't have future sight to help him predict Hashirama's multiple Wood hands which will target him.
Click to expand...
Luffy's regular senses are still vastly superior to Hashiramas. This is nothing for basic Kenbunshoku Haki.
CiscoTheSoto said:
Hashirama can also just seal and restrain Luffy using the Sage Art: Gate of Great Gods. He can change the size of the gates however he chooses and could use them to keep Luffy restricted, even piling them on top of one another. What's more, these gates have the ability to render the target docile and negate their willpower, and on Hashirama's page, it's listed as willpower manipulation. Luffy doesn't have any resistance to willpower manipulation on his profile, and I'm not sure it would fall under the same category as mind manipulation.
Click to expand...
Luffy can easily dodge gigantic or small gates coming from the atmosphere. That's nothing.
 
KingTempest said:
Luffy's regular senses are still vastly superior to Hashiramas. This is nothing for basic Kenbunshoku Haki.
Click to expand...
Based on what? Luffy has used his enhanced senses and Haki to easily avoid oncoming attacks without looking at them, which is exactly what Madara, a novice with Sage Mode, did against someone with significantly heightened senses and accuracy (Sasuke) and opponents with tremendous speed (Tobirama). I don't see where the idea that Luffy's Haki senses are somehow superior to Hashirama's sage mode senses comes from.

I still think Hashirama should be able to take this with the Wood Golem's greater AP, LS, his ability to stun Luffy for a few seconds with sleep manipulation, his knowledge of Luffy's weakness and ability to use Water Style, and his control of the terrain. Since he knows that Luffy's rubber body is resistant to blunt damage, he could just change the shape of his constructs to sharp daggers to stab him. It might not be in-character, but it's still possible, and Hashirama would be smart enough to use such tactics. Hashirama has learned to be lethal and cunning in-battle as well, like how he surprised Madara and stabbed him from behind, so it's not like violent actions are completely OOC for him. It's also possible, as Obito has used the wood style to impale his opponents many times.
 
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CiscoTheSoto said:
Based on what? Luffy has used his enhanced senses and Haki to easily avoid oncoming attacks without looking at them, which is exactly what Madara, a novice with Sage Mode, did against someone with significantly heightened senses and accuracy (Sasuke) and opponents with tremendous speed (Tobirama). I don't see where the idea that Luffy's Haki senses are somehow superior to Hashirama's sage mode senses.
Click to expand...
Madara was naturally a sensor, and he had his sage senses added on which he said were very easy to manipulate.

Luffy's Haki without Future Sight still has all of these

Initial Stage​

  • Precognition and Extrasensory Perception (Precognition, Enhanced Sight, Life Detection; Can sense the life energy in others, seeing if they are alive and when they die[11])
  • Telepathy (Can read the minds of others, hearing their voices and thoughts[11])
  • Enhanced Senses
    • Enhanced Awareness (Can sense those near the user[10])
    • Enhanced Hearing (Can hear the conversations of peoples kilometers away[10])
    • Enhanced Vision (Users in training like Enel's vassals are shown to see kilometers away[11], and Aisa could do the same at birth[14]. More potent Kenbunshoku allows the user to see much further into the future)
      • Aura Vision (Can see the auras of others[20])
      • X-Ray Vision (Can look through walls to see the aura of others[20])
      • Panoramic Vision (Their Haki is omnidirectional, allowing them to see all around them[11])
      • Emotion Vision (Regularly sense the emotions and feelings of others[10])
      • Soul Vision (Rayleigh said that Haki can see spiritual energy[10], and Usopp said that he could see spirits[20])

Intermediate Stage​

  • Information Analysis and Extrasensory Perception (Power Reading; Can sense the power levels of opponents[10][21])
  • Enhanced Senses
    • Enhanced Vision
      • Neutral Vision (Can see Haki, which is invisible[10], and can also see Kaido's invisible slashes[22])
    • Enhanced Sixth (Get small glimpses into the future[15][11][1])
  • Instinctive Reaction (Kin'emon can sense and fight even without connection to his other senses, as his legs and torso moved around Punk Hazard using only his Kenbunshoku Haki and not any others[23][24][25]. Big Mom and Whitebeard can sense and fight while they're sleeping[26][27]. Rayleigh said that Luffy could unconsciously sense the emotions of living things[6])
Click to expand...
Hashirama's regular sage mode senses don't hold a candle to Luffy's.
CiscoTheSoto said:
I still think Hashirama should be able to take this with the Wood Golem's greater AP, LS, his ability to stun Luffy for a few seconds with sleep manipulation, his knowledge of Luffy's weakness and ability to use Water Style, and his control of the terrain. Since he knows that Luffy's rubber body is resistant to blunt damage, he could just change the shape of his constructs to sharp daggers to stab him. It might not be in-character, but it's still possible, and Hashirama would be smart enough to use such tactics. Hashirama has learned to be lethal and cunning in-battle as well, like how he surprised Madara and stabbed him from behind, so it's not like violent actions are completely OOC for him. It's also possible, as Obito has used the wood style to impale his opponents many times.
Click to expand...
The ability he doesn't use in 1v1s (The sleep manip). Also, Luffy can blow large gusts of air to blow away the pollen as well, so this isn't much of a factor.

He doesn't use any water style jutsus. He holds the capability to use the nature but he knows no jutsus.

Saying it's possible doesn't mean he'll do it. All of his wood style techniques are just rapid tree growth except his human and dragon wooden constructs.

Lethal and cunning by making a clone and stabbing someone with his regular blade.

Remember, if Luffy even touches Hashirama the match is over, since he's massively weaker than him.


Also, that's Obito, who uses a completely different branch of wood style than Hashirama (no pun intended)
 
Honestly, I'd have to give it to Hashirama for this one. While Luffy certainly has the advantage over Hashirama physically he lacks the speed to make good on such an advantage due to starting out in Bound-Man. And the biggest issue with Bound Man is that it doesn't really last long at the start of Post-Time Skip, few minutes at best.

And since Hashirama has Prior Knowledge on Luffy and isn't an idiot, he can afford to play defensive and wait Luffy out. While Luffy could take this fight by just getting in one good hit, I struggle to see him doing so when his opponent could effectively match him and even overwhelm him with the use of Wood Style most of the time and the benefits granted by Sage Mode. While Luffy has some pretty hard to read attacks and his strongest blows can overpower Hashirama's wood, the enhanced senses/general awareness granted by sage mode and ease of use of Wood Style has me believing that Hashirama can more often than not defend against and avoid even what some would consider Luffy's unpredictable blows. Not to mention that the starting range give Hashirama time to get whatever he needs set and ready before Luffy even shows up to throw a punch. While this is one fight which even with prior-knowledge, Hashirama is heavily disadvantaged in, I'd still give it to him more often than not cause he's just got the more reliable means for staying in and winning the battle.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Honestly, I'd have to give it to Hashirama for this one. While Luffy certainly has the advantage over Hashirama physically he lacks the speed to make good on such an advantage due to starting out in Bound-Man. And the biggest issue with Bound Man is that it doesn't really last long at the start of Post-Time Skip, few minutes at best.
Click to expand...
Luffy fought Doflamingo for over 20 minutes and this is after all of his injuries.
On top of that, Luffy scales higher than Hashirama in base.
Duedate8898 said:
And since Hashirama has Prior Knowledge on Luffy and isn't an idiot, he can afford to play defensive and wait Luffy out. While Luffy could take this fight by just getting in one good hit, I struggle to see him doing so when his opponent could effectively match him and even overwhelm him with the use of Wood Style most of the time and the benefits granted by Sage Mode. While Luffy has some pretty hard to read attacks and his strongest blows can overpower Hashirama's wood, the enhanced senses/general awareness granted by sage mode and ease of use of Wood Style has me believing that Hashirama can more often than not defend against and avoid even what some would consider Luffy's unpredictable blows. Not to mention that the starting range give Hashirama time to get whatever he needs set and ready before Luffy even shows up to throw a punch. While this is one fight which even with prior-knowledge, Hashirama is heavily disadvantaged in, I'd still give it to him more often than not cause he's just got the more reliable means for staying in and winning the battle.
Click to expand...
Luffy has better senses, is faster, and literally needs to land one hit on his person to put him down
 
KingTempest said:
Luffy fought Doflamingo for over 20 minutes and this is after all of his injuries.
On top of that, Luffy scales higher than Hashirama in base.
Click to expand...
He didn't fight Doflamingo in Gear 4 for over 20 minutes. It was literally just two chapters, and a few strikes and then he lost the form. Doflammigo himself notes the form not even the lasting that long when mentions how many seconds can Luffy maintain said form. And scaling higher in base doesn't really matter when Hashirama still has access to Wood-Style which scales higher than Luffy in his base form and when the exiting of Gear Four puts Luffy out of commission for a few important seconds no matter what and with him being in Sage Mode he'd actually be faster than Luffy once Luffy returned to base mode due to where the Speed Equalization occurs.
KingTempest said:
Luffy has better senses, is faster, and literally needs to land one hit on his person to put him down
Click to expand...
Nothing to really prove his senses are better or even really going to help him out in getting a blow in against someone who has the awareness granted with Sage Mode, he isn't faster since Luffy has no more speed boost once he's in Gear 4 Boundman pre-Wholecake, and something that isn't really being mentioned is that Hashirama does have regeneration that could be reliable in getting past a single fatal blow. So, still voting Hashirama for this.
 
Duedate8898 said:
He didn't fight Doflamingo in Gear 4 for over 20 minutes. It was literally just two chapters, and a few strikes and then he lost the form. Doflammigo himself notes the form not even the lasting that long when mentions how many seconds can Luffy maintain said form. And scaling higher in base doesn't really matter when Hashirama still has access to Wood-Style which scales higher than Luffy in his base form and when the exiting of Gear Four puts Luffy out of commission for a few important seconds no matter what and with him being in Sage Mode he'd actually be faster than Luffy once Luffy returned to base mode due to where the Speed Equalization occurs.
Click to expand...

Chapter 784 he uses Gear 4th
0784-008.png


Luffy washes Doflamingo

Chapter 785 20 minutes later
0785-009.png


Chapter 785 he's still fighting
0785-016.png


He fought for 20 minutes
Duedate8898 said:
Nothing to really prove his senses are better or even really going to help him out in getting a blow in against someone who has the awareness granted with Sage Mode,
Click to expand...
KingTempest said:
Luffy's Haki without Future Sight still has all of these

Initial Stage​

  • Precognition and Extrasensory Perception (Precognition, Enhanced Sight, Life Detection; Can sense the life energy in others, seeing if they are alive and when they die[11])
  • Telepathy (Can read the minds of others, hearing their voices and thoughts[11])
  • Enhanced Senses
    • Enhanced Awareness (Can sense those near the user[10])
    • Enhanced Hearing (Can hear the conversations of peoples kilometers away[10])
    • Enhanced Vision (Users in training like Enel's vassals are shown to see kilometers away[11], and Aisa could do the same at birth[14]. More potent Kenbunshoku allows the user to see much further into the future)
      • Aura Vision (Can see the auras of others[20])
      • X-Ray Vision (Can look through walls to see the aura of others[20])
      • Panoramic Vision (Their Haki is omnidirectional, allowing them to see all around them[11])
      • Emotion Vision (Regularly sense the emotions and feelings of others[10])
      • Soul Vision (Rayleigh said that Haki can see spiritual energy[10], and Usopp said that he could see spirits[20])

Intermediate Stage​

  • Information Analysis and Extrasensory Perception (Power Reading; Can sense the power levels of opponents[10][21])
  • Enhanced Senses
    • Enhanced Vision
      • Neutral Vision (Can see Haki, which is invisible[10], and can also see Kaido's invisible slashes[22])
    • Enhanced Sixth (Get small glimpses into the future[15][11][1])
  • Instinctive Reaction (Kin'emon can sense and fight even without connection to his other senses, as his legs and torso moved around Punk Hazard using only his Kenbunshoku Haki and not any others[23][24][25]. Big Mom and Whitebeard can sense and fight while they're sleeping[26][27]. Rayleigh said that Luffy could unconsciously sense the emotions of living things[6])
Click to expand...
Hashirama's regular sage mode senses don't hold a candle to Luffy's.
Click to expand...
Duedate8898 said:
he isn't faster since Luffy has no more speed boost once he's in Gear 4 Boundman pre-Wholecake,
Click to expand...
0784-012.png


Most definitely does
Duedate8898 said:
and something that isn't really being mentioned is that Hashirama does have regeneration that could be reliable in getting past a single fatal blow. So, still voting Hashirama for this.
Click to expand...
Regeneration Negation helps a lot with regeneration
 
Luffy has 20+ minutes in GEAR 4 where he can fold Hashi with nearly any solid hit while Hashi needs to get lucky for this-
Yeah, Luffy FRA
 
A lot of Hashirama’s arsenal (his wood style attacks) wouldn’t even work on Luffy (except for when he makes spikes). Luffy wins FRA.
 
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