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Minor Whis speed fix.

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@KLOL506 That makes no sense. By that logic Android arc SSJ Goku is rated slower than Frieza saga Goku since your no longer applying the multiplier to SSJ. Just like Kaioken can still be used so would SSJ1 at least unless. They still use the multiplier stats so I don't think that's accurate, and if it is they need to change that. Basically stick the 50x multiplier into your scaling at least and I would think it is a good start to a conservative chain.
This wiki will do anything to get the absolute lowest out of every character, not just Goku. Goku is the most apparent as the verse is strong but is made narratively. verse with strong characters usually make sure you know their character is strong and will confirmed feats. Akira couldn't care less.
 
Well I waited a bit to see suggestions for a scale and think on them, now I have a blog for it which I feel is conservative and within wiki standards and precedents, and explains the reasoning well. I'm willing to make tweaks if needed but hopefully this is agreeable. If need be I can link scans to the assertions in the notes of course, although most are well known by people knowledgeable about DB/DBS.


Edit: I thought about adding a note about why we don't discard SSJ 50x multiplier, do you think it is necessary, or the blog is fine as it stands?

"It has been argued that we should stop using the SSJ 50x multiplier after the Frieza saga, but this would lead to massive inconsistencies like Frieza saga Goku being rated as 50x faster than Post Yardrat Goku, due to removing the multiplier and reverting him to his just higher than base value. In fact the current speed ratings for DBZ are based off of the calculations which include the Kaioken and SSJ multipliers from earlier in the series, therefore we already use them indirectly, and there is no reasonable reason to exclude the 50x SSJ multiplier after the Freiza saga."
 
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I can agree with "At least..., likely..." rating.
 
First of all, Kaioken multipliers shouldn't be ignored; it explicitly states it multiplies energy output, speed, and durability by X times. And actually, I can't really think of "Bigger example outliers" but the other one on the list that comes to mind is Naruto. That actually does have some accepted multipliers; Choji has something call the Chili Pepper Pill which multiplies his power a hundred fold. It's consistent with Genin being 8-B and it's back up but his own attack having a Low 7-C calculation. And the Sound Ninja 4 have 10x multiplier statements in which they someone struggle with a single Genin in base but match Chunin who have 8-A feats with their transformations.

But anyway, I also mentioned that SSJ multipliers in the like tend to be very inconsistent; it was only 40-50x the first instance against Frieza in which 20x Kaioken literally matched Frieza's 50% mode, but SSJ completely overpowered his 100% form. Not to mention, Goku openly admitted that even against 100% Frieza, he was holding back the entire fight and at one point said he had no reason to continue fighting simply because "Frieza is too easy for him". And while Frieza did have limited stamina, even in his 100% form, he didn't instantly weaken. And he's always been shown to be much faster than 100% Frieza as he outpaced all those disks like they were nothing.

Now as for the topic at hand, we can use Kaioken multipliers for speed; saying it surpasses Whis' feat isn't really a counter argument because his speed feats are all casual. Sure he mentioned going full speed, but he's still in a relaxed state and those could just be bluffs. And actually, I disagree with other statements Cal knit picks; combat speed is consistently higher than flight speed. While that doesn't mean they aren't incapable of flight speed comparable to combat speed and even flight speed tends to be inconsistent in Dragon Ball; the heat of combat is where DB display their full speeds. Long term point A to Point B speed has always been unimpressive compared to the short term ones that happen on the battlefield. Ultra Instinct Goku never tried to fly from one side of the universe to the other; so his flight speed feats are still considered "Short burst flight speed or movement speed". That being said, the DBS cast should still be Massively FTL+ outright for other reasons, but I think it's still safe to say his true combat speed is much greater than any flight speed he's demonstrated.

I'm unsure about how to properly calculated all the various zenkais consisting of "Base Goku post Zenkai is stronger than Pre-Zenkai SSB/SSG Goku". I don't think those can be calculated, and I think the SSG to SSB assuming 20x for those is iffy. But examples of Kaioken being used should still be fair game.
@AKM sama

What do you think about this?

There is also this post:
EDIT: I MADE A MASSIVE MISTAKE WITH THE MULTIPLIERS. SORRY FOR THE TROUBLE.

Half-serious Beerus > Base DBS Goku after gaining God ki - both are 196 quadrillion c

SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG and Pre-Goku Black Saga SSB- Massively above 196 quadrillion c

U6 Saga SSBKKx10- At least 1.96 quintillion c

SSB from Hit rematch and onwards- at least 1.96 quintillion c (Since apparently Goku only used SSB against Hit after going through a plethora of zenkais, training montages and other power ups due to Goku Black happening and other arcs I completely forgot, and Goku no longer needed to go towards Kaio-Ken on top)

ToP Saga SSBKKx20 Goku 1st bout- at least 39.2 quintillion c

UIO1 and UIO2 Goku- Massively above at least 39.2 quintillion c

SSB Goku post ToP- Massively above at least 39.2 quintillion c as his power level was now at the very least comparable to UIO2, but below UIO3 and MUI

SSB Goku KKx20 post-ToP against Jiren for a second bout, battle-damage edition- At least 784 quintillion c

UIO3 Goku- >>>>>>>> At least 784 quintillion c

MUI Goku- Even higher than the previous forms

Here's the fixed version.
@DarkDragonMedeus
 
I am in agreement with both and I think rating the speed as MFTL+ (at least <value>, likely <value>) is okay.
 
Thank you. That should be fine to apply then, although @SSJRyu1 should probably include KLOL506's scaling chain as an extra section in his accepted calculation blog post, so the profile pages can properly link to the information.
 
@Antvasima
OK sounds good, just to clarify the scaling I made includes all the info and sections from @KLOL506 chain as well, but with a few additional explanations and additions, so it should be fine as all that info is there.

If possible it is probably good if some staff comment on the blog, confirming that it was accepted. Maybe if @AKM sama @KLOL506 and @Antvasima can do that it would be sufficient.

All Low 2-C and 2-C DBS guys should scale as "At least 196 quadrillion c, likely at least 39.2 sextillion c with conservative multipliers" Linking the Beerus and Goku blog to the first half, and the scaling blog to the second half.

All DB video game characters who are even somewhat comparable to GoD level should also scale, so all 2-A's basically.

For DBS characters that are 3-A maybe we just say "At least 196 quadrillion c, likely far higher with conservative multipliers" and link the Beerus and Goku blog to the first half, and the multipliers blog to the second half for people to see where they fall? We could work out the numbers of where all of them fall lore wise and scale them individually in the future if we really want to, but I think people could realistically see where they land based on the list in the blog and some common sense.

Sound like a plan?
 
Yeah, KLOL has shown me the updated list, so I approve that. I thought I already posted earlier, but okay. But yes, I think we are good now.
 
I commented on the blog. I don't think you need to include "with conservative multipliers" part in the speed description, since that will already be there in the linked blog and it would look a bit weird. The usual "At least 196 quadrillion c, likely 39.2 sextillion c" and "At least 196 quadrillion c, likely higher" would work just as well.
 
I think it needs more clearance on the subject. We can't put both because it would have to scale all the way to Buu Saga. Super fortunately has a speed feat. (Toeiverse has a Buu Arc speed feat but it would still be scaled down to Cell Saga.)
 
I have also commented in/accepted SSJRyu1's blog.
 
It would probably be good if the rest of you evaluate Fluffy's blog as well though.
 
Thank you all for the suggestions, I edited my blog and made SSB unknown but at least 20x like SSJ. The final result is very similar to @SSJRyu1 's blog but is slightly higher. If don't mind you can take a look at it again.
 
Is somebody willing to write a list of the EXACT page titles (not the URLs) of ALL the locked pages that need to be updated please, so I can unlock them?

Also, is somebody experienced willing to handle the updates?
 
Honestly the way wiki handles the speed,I am just wondering if they even differentiate between travel and combat speed outside of stating its definition in the page? Because I always thought that this wiki treated travel=combat speed unless specified otherwise
 
Honestly the way wiki handles the speed,I am just wondering if they even differentiate between travel and combat speed outside of stating its definition in the page? Because I always thought that this wiki treated travel=combat speed unless specified otherwise
Well its actually combat speed should scale to or above travel speed.....not that travel speed=comabt speed....
 
Which is basically combat speed being equalized to travel speed at bare minimum and then scaling above it based on specific series
So basically still travel speed=combat speed by general assumption. Does VSB do that?
 
Which is basically combat speed being equalized to travel speed in bare minimum and then scaling above it based on specific series
So basically still travel speed=combat speed by general assumption? Does VSB do that?
Well comparisons between combat speeds and travel speeds are not commutative....
Sequence of comparison is important....

Combat speeds can be scaled to or above travel speed by default on this wiki.....CS>=TS

But not vice versa.....you cannot scale travel speed to combat speed by default you need proof in this case.

tldr;
By default in this wiki atleast bare minimum combat speeds scale to travel speeds....
 
Doesn't happen in Dragon Ball, like we've already stressed enough, characters in DB can easily keep up with their own ki blasts and attacks when it comes to travel speed as well. They do this especially in the heat of battles to outpace their own ki beams and whatnot or just fly faster than it like it were a race just to prove a point.
 
Well comparisons between combat speeds and travel speeds are not commutative....
Sequence of comparison is important....

Combat speeds can be scaled to or above travel speed by default on this wiki.....CS>=TS

But not vice versa.....you cannot scale travel speed to combat speed by default you need proof in this case.

tldr;
By default in this wiki atleast bare minimum combat speeds scale to travel speeds....
I see but I was just asking like for example what are the standards for comparison between travel and combat speed without any context or discussion about any verse which seems to be combat speed=travel speed but travel speed =/= combat speed.Hmm I see,thanks for the answer
Doesn't happen in Dragon Ball, like we've already stressed enough, characters in DB can easily keep up with their own ki blasts and attacks when it comes to travel speed as well.
I agree there
 
We do make separations on travel speed and combat speed on a case-by-case basis assuming there's enough evidence for it, often at times we might also add a short-burst travel speed depending upon the context and conditions.
 
So by default assumption combat speed=travel speed and travel speed =/= combat speed yes?
 
Is somebody willing to write a list of the EXACT page titles (not the URLs) of ALL the locked pages that need to be updated please, so I can unlock them?

Also, is somebody experienced willing to handle the updates?
Anyway...
 
Is somebody willing to write a list of the EXACT page titles (not the URLs) of ALL the locked pages that need to be updated please, so I can unlock them?

Also, is somebody experienced willing to handle the updates?
I recommend to have @SSJRyu1 the one to make changes to all profiles.

I think every 3-A and higher character scales to this.

Son Goku (Dragon Ball Super)

Beerus and all GoD's (Champa, Iwen, Heles, Mule, Quitela, Arack, Liquir, Sidra, Rumsshi, Belmod, and Giin)

Whis and all Angel's (Grand Priest, Vados, Awamo, Sour, Campari, Cognac, Cukatail, Korn, Mojito, Kusu, Marcarita, and Martinu)

Zen'ō

Vegeta (Dragon Ball Super)

Gohan (Dragon Ball Super)

Piccolo

Pilina

Saonel

Future Trunks

Android 17

Frieza

Frost (Dragon Ball)

Botamo

Cabba

Auta Magetta

Hit

Copy-Vegeta

Arale Norimaki

Goku Black

Vegito

Fusion Zamasu

Obuni

Monna

Maji Kayo

Koichiarator

Koitsukai

Catopesra

Borareta

Anilaza

Caulifla

Kale

Kefla

Brianne de Chateau

Jiren

Toppo

Dyspo

Kunshi

Broly (Dragon Ball Super)

Gogeta (Dragon Ball Super)
 
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