Minor Whis speed fix.

[Axxtentacle]

https://media.**********.net/attachments/790424278793191434/801991419061469274/image0.jpg

https://media.**********.net/attachments/790424278793191434/801991471321448478/image0.jpg

The link is the source and the japanese, and these are the translations for it. This is talking about the episode.

 

[KLOL506]

https://media.**********.net/attachments/790424278793191434/801991419061469274/image0.jpg

https://media.**********.net/attachments/790424278793191434/801991471321448478/image0.jpg

The link is the source and the japanese, and these are the translations for it. This is talking about the episode.

So I'm guessing this Jiren would be somewhat comparable to his held-back state in terms of speed, yes?

 

[Axxtentacle]

I would say he’s at least higher than the less-held-back Jiren that fought SSJBE and SSJBK at the same time, because the firey aura is an indication of his true power.

Not his MAX power, but definitely not his extremely-suppressed state.

 

[KLOL506]

I would say he’s at least higher than the less-held-back Jiren that fought SSJBE and SSJBK at the same time, because the firey aura is an indication of his true power.

Not his MAX power, but definitely not his extremely-suppressed state.

I see, but then Goku and Frieza while grievously weakened were able to keep up with said Jiren when it comes to physical attacks so doesn't that spell that their dura would increase?

 

[Axxtentacle]

For Frieza i’m unsure. We considered it an outlier before, but for Goku it can’t really be an outlier because it’s a direct Zenkai boost (an unquantifiable boost in power) into this.

I’m ok with using it for Goku, but for Frieza there’s no explanation. If you want to take it as an outlier for Frieza, i’m fine with that.

 

[KLOL506]

For Frieza i’m unsure. We considered it an outlier before, but for Goku it can’t really be an outlier because it’s a direct Zenkai boost (an unquantifiable boost in power) into this.

I’m ok with using it for Goku, but for Frieza there’s no explanation. If you want to take it as an outlier for Frieza, i’m fine with that.

IDK, kinda iffy to say that the zenkai for Goku in the battlefield would be that much of a boost compared to the zenkai he got after eating the Senzu Bean and recovered right then and there.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I agree that it’s iffy, but it’s what we’re shown. His growths in power previously from UI signs were pretty massive gaps to cross, so I don’t think it’s entirely out of the question considering we never got a solidified “he gets X stronger” from Zenkais.

 

[KLOL506]

I agree that it’s iffy, but it’s what we’re shown. His growths in power previously from UI signs were pretty massive gaps to cross, so I don’t think it’s entirely out of the question considering we never got a solidified “he gets X stronger” from Zenkais.

Yeah but it's not like Goku's base jumped straight to Low 2-C during his final bout with Jiren. With the Senzu Bean, there might be a chance but unless we get some concrete showings of such, best to just leave base Goku at a considerably higher degree of 3-A while his speed obviously takes a massive boost. So let's forget about the AP for now. Then again it did take Goku and Frieza all their might due to them being heavily weakened to even pin Jiren down so it might not even scale to their normal base selves.

From what I'm seeing here, I'd say Base Goku post-ToP has a high chance of scaling to his early-ToP SSB KKx20 first bout self for keeping up with a re-motivated Jiren who according to the scans you showed is more powerful than his less-than-serious self.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What are you guys talking about right now?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah i’m not pushing for Goku’s AP or anything to be changed. I’m purely using this for speed. That’s an entirely different topic.

 

[KLOL506]

What are you guys talking about right now?

Mostly the speed stuff.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What’s the context? I need a TLDR.

 

[KLOL506]

OK so...

Half-serious Beerus > Base DBS Goku after gaining God ki - both are 196 quadrillion c

SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG and Pre-Goku Black Saga SSB- Massively above 196 quadrillion c

U6 Saga SSBKKx10- At least 19.6 quintillion c

SSB from Hit rematch and onwards- at least 19.6 quintillion c (Since apparently Goku only used SSB against Hit after going through a plethora of zenkais, training montages and other power ups due to Goku Black happening and other arcs I completely forgot, and Goku no longer needed to go towards Kaio-Ken on top)

ToP Saga SSBKKx20 Goku 1st bout- at least 392 quintillion c

UIO1 and UIO2 Goku- Massively above at least 392 quintillion c

SSB Goku post ToP- Massively above at least 392 quintillion c as his power level was now at the very least comparable to UIO2, but below UIO3 and MUI

SSB Goku KKx20 post-ToP against Jiren for a second bout, battle-damage edition- At least 7.84 sextillion c

UIO3 Goku- >>>>>>>> At least 7.84 sextillion c

MUI Goku- Even higher than the previous forms

That's the best I could come up with regarding the scaling chain for now.

Basically we're discussing this scaling chain I made which I made sure to use mutlipliers as conservatively as possible, but at the same time I'm lacking the other scaling chains from the Goku Black, Arale Arc, post-battle zenkais and whatnot. So this scaling chain is merely the foundations to a better scaling chain if anyone else could give me more info regarding the matter.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I’ll make a DBS speed scaling blog.

 

[KLOL506]

I’ll make a DBS speed scaling blog.

Cool, let us know when it's done.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Zamasu_Chan
If you don't mind, I will weigh in on the scaling as well when its done tomorrow evening. Your well versed in DBS so you'll probably make a solid one anyway though. My understanding is the 50x SSJ multiplier is fair game on the wiki now btw due to how it was portrayed in the Frieza saga in relation to Kaioken and Frieza's percent's.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, Kaioken multipliers shouldn't be ignored; it explicitly states it multiplies energy output, speed, and durability by X times. And actually, I can't really think of "Bigger example outliers" but the other one on the list that comes to mind is Naruto. That actually does have some accepted multipliers; Choji has something call the Chili Pepper Pill which multiplies his power a hundred fold. It's consistent with Genin being 8-B and it's back up but his own attack having a Low 7-C calculation. And the Sound Ninja 4 have 10x multiplier statements in which they someone struggle with a single Genin in base but match Chunin who have 8-A feats with their transformations.

But anyway, I also mentioned that SSJ multipliers in the like tend to be very inconsistent; it was only 40-50x the first instance against Frieza in which 20x Kaioken literally matched Frieza's 50% mode, but SSJ completely overpowered his 100% form. Not to mention, Goku openly admitted that even against 100% Frieza, he was holding back the entire fight and at one point said he had no reason to continue fighting simply because "Frieza is too easy for him". And while Frieza did have limited stamina, even in his 100% form, he didn't instantly weaken. And he's always been shown to be much faster than 100% Frieza as he outpaced all those disks like they were nothing.

Now as for the topic at hand, we can use Kaioken multipliers for speed; saying it surpasses Whis' feat isn't really a counter argument because his speed feats are all casual. Sure he mentioned going full speed, but he's still in a relaxed state and those could just be bluffs. And actually, I disagree with other statements Cal knit picks; combat speed is consistently higher than flight speed. While that doesn't mean they aren't incapable of flight speed comparable to combat speed and even flight speed tends to be inconsistent in Dragon Ball; the heat of combat is where DB display their full speeds. Long term point A to Point B speed has always been unimpressive compared to the short term ones that happen on the battlefield. Ultra Instinct Goku never tried to fly from one side of the universe to the other; so his flight speed feats are still considered "Short burst flight speed or movement speed". That being said, the DBS cast should still be Massively FTL+ outright for other reasons, but I think it's still safe to say his true combat speed is much greater than any flight speed he's demonstrated.

I'm unsure about how to properly calculated all the various zenkais consisting of "Base Goku post Zenkai is stronger than Pre-Zenkai SSB/SSG Goku". I don't think those can be calculated, and I think the SSG to SSB assuming 20x for those is iffy. But examples of Kaioken being used should still be fair game.

 

[Chariot190]

but he's still in a relaxed state and those could just be bluffs.

Bluffing to who exactly? He's not in a fight and isn't trying to show off or undermine himself.
And even then, why would anyone bluff about their max speed being literally 1000000x less the everyone else's? That isnt even a bluff, that'd just be lying through his teeth to nobody to make himself weaker, when basically everyone there at that point is allegedly hundreds of thousands of times the feat.
Him being in a relaxed state doesn't invalidate it being the fastest he's ever gone though.

but I think it's still safe to say his true combat speed is much greater than any flight speed he's demonstrated.

This isnt flight speed though, it's a special speed oriented technique that's meant to be fast.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yeah...I agree DarkDragonMedeus....just yesterday I learnt from a fellow friend that there is indeed difference between "Movement Speed" and "Travel Speed"....

Basically Movement Speed is short ranged bursts of dashes involving flight or sprint done during combat.....kinda like Shunpo or Flash step....DB even has a technique that is similar called "Vanish" or sumthin' where Characters appear to "Air Trick" from one point in arena to another...

Travel Speed is like flying from one far away place to another far away place....it has majority of the time been always be slower than "Combat Movement Speeds"....especially when Space Travel is involved.

So basically .....
Combat Speed and Movement Speed>>>>(far superior)>>>>>Travel Speed or Space Flight.

 

[Chariot190]

snip

That doesnt really work when Whis used a special technique that is designed for extreme speed.
This isnt Goku flying a long distance compared to him quickly reacting to an attack in the middle of a fight. This is the God Tier using his fastest known move that's beyond his casual speed that's >>>>>> his usual speed.
Even then, I doubt Whis' travel speed is 500,000x less then fodder's fighting speed and thus by proxy millions and millions of times below his combat speed.

The whole travel speed excuse doesn't even work here, this isn't standard travel speed.

 

[Antvasima]

First of all, Kaioken multipliers shouldn't be ignored; it explicitly states it multiplies energy output, speed, and durability by X times. And actually, I can't really think of "Bigger example outliers" but the other one on the list that comes to mind is Naruto. That actually does have some accepted multipliers; Choji has something call the Chili Pepper Pill which multiplies his power a hundred fold. It's consistent with Genin being 8-B and it's back up but his own attack having a Low 7-C calculation. And the Sound Ninja 4 have 10x multiplier statements in which they someone struggle with a single Genin in base but match Chunin who have 8-A feats with their transformations.

But anyway, I also mentioned that SSJ multipliers in the like tend to be very inconsistent; it was only 40-50x the first instance against Frieza in which 20x Kaioken literally matched Frieza's 50% mode, but SSJ completely overpowered his 100% form. Not to mention, Goku openly admitted that even against 100% Frieza, he was holding back the entire fight and at one point said he had no reason to continue fighting simply because "Frieza is too easy for him". And while Frieza did have limited stamina, even in his 100% form, he didn't instantly weaken. And he's always been shown to be much faster than 100% Frieza as he outpaced all those disks like they were nothing.

Now as for the topic at hand, we can use Kaioken multipliers for speed; saying it surpasses Whis' feat isn't really a counter argument because his speed feats are all casual. Sure he mentioned going full speed, but he's still in a relaxed state and those could just be bluffs. And actually, I disagree with other statements Cal knit picks; combat speed is consistently higher than flight speed. While that doesn't mean they aren't incapable of flight speed comparable to combat speed and even flight speed tends to be inconsistent in Dragon Ball; the heat of combat is where DB display their full speeds. Long term point A to Point B speed has always been unimpressive compared to the short term ones that happen on the battlefield. Ultra Instinct Goku never tried to fly from one side of the universe to the other; so his flight speed feats are still considered "Short burst flight speed or movement speed". That being said, the DBS cast should still be Massively FTL+ outright for other reasons, but I think it's still safe to say his true combat speed is much greater than any flight speed he's demonstrated.

I'm unsure about how to properly calculated all the various zenkais consisting of "Base Goku post Zenkai is stronger than Pre-Zenkai SSB/SSG Goku". I don't think those can be calculated, and I think the SSG to SSB assuming 20x for those is iffy. But examples of Kaioken being used should still be fair game.

@The_real_cal_howard @KLOL506 @SSJRyu1

What do you think about this?

 

[San-Kakarot]

How do we know that Whis's speed is the one when he used the staff?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This has been going on for 4 pages. Goku and Beerus’ speed feat scales to their combat speed. Whis’ speed feat is his flight speed.
Combat speed =/= travel speed.

 

[DivineAura44]

But doesn't it scale equally in DB?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No.

 

[KLOL506]

For the most part, I agree with DDM's points.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I agree with DDM for the most part to. It just further confirms that the Whis speed feat as it stands is not a reliable cap for DBS cast speed, and that there is no reasonable reason to ignore explicit or super obvious speed multipliers, especially kaioken related ones.

I feel we should place them as "At least 98 sextillion C with conservative multipliers"

But if you wanted to be very conservative you could say "At least 196 quadrillion c, likely at least 98 sextillion C with conservative multipliers"

*The specific number subject to change depending on finalized scaling.

 

[KLOL506]

I feel we should place them as "At least 98 sextillion C with conservative multipliers"

But if you wanted to be very conservative you could say "At least 196 quadrillion c, likely at least 98 sextillion C with conservative multipliers"

*The specific number subject to change depending on finalized scaling.

That's way too high, by the conservative multipliers I figured out, he'd be aroud 7.8 sextillion c, as the zenkais are too massively inconsistent to accurately gauge.

 

[KLOL506]

No.

Wrong, Cal, SSJRyu1, DDM and I have already shown explicitly why this would scale to their movement speeds, SSJRyu1 outright states this in his blog and even shows decent reasoning for it, also are we really gonna forget how MUI debunks your claim of "combat speed =/= travel speed in DBS"?

And even if you kept them separate, do you realize that Kaio-Ken amps all statistics and that Goku would still be MFTL+ in base anyway for even being able to keep up with a half-serious Beerus? And how with SSB KKx10 alone he'd trump Whis's travel speed? Heck, any of his normal SSJ forms would do the trick

 

[KLOL506]

EDIT: I MADE A MASSIVE MISTAKE WITH THE MULTIPLIERS. SORRY FOR THE TROUBLE.

Half-serious Beerus > Base DBS Goku after gaining God ki - both are 196 quadrillion c

SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG and Pre-Goku Black Saga SSB- Massively above 196 quadrillion c

U6 Saga SSBKKx10- At least 1.96 quintillion c

SSB from Hit rematch and onwards- at least 1.96 quintillion c (Since apparently Goku only used SSB against Hit after going through a plethora of zenkais, training montages and other power ups due to Goku Black happening and other arcs I completely forgot, and Goku no longer needed to go towards Kaio-Ken on top)

ToP Saga SSBKKx20 Goku 1st bout- at least 39.2 quintillion c

UIO1 and UIO2 Goku- Massively above at least 39.2 quintillion c

SSB Goku post ToP- Massively above at least 39.2 quintillion c as his power level was now at the very least comparable to UIO2, but below UIO3 and MUI

SSB Goku KKx20 post-ToP against Jiren for a second bout, battle-damage edition- At least 784 quintillion c

UIO3 Goku- >>>>>>>> At least 784 quintillion c

MUI Goku- Even higher than the previous forms

Here's the fixed version.

 

[SSJRyu1]

That's way too high, by the conservative multipliers I figured out, he'd be aroud 7.8 sextillion c, as the zenkais are too massively inconsistent to accurately gauge.

Didn't include zenkais, limit breaks, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJG, UI, MUI or most of his training actually, just stuck an at least in front to denote that they are unquantifiable significant speed boosts.

I only used SSJ1, KKx20 (once), the obvious Kaioken boost from Goku's second fight with Hit, and a 50x for SSJB due to the fact it is stated to be SSJG using SSJ which is a 50x multiplier. The only one you could really argue is SSJB if you wanted to be anal about it since its is a heavily implied multiplier, but then again I didn't fully flesh out the rest of the list either so I would be surprised if it wasn't well into the sextillions at least anyway even removing SSJB. My first list was more of an example than a finished product.

I am waiting for @Zamasu_Chan to present his list before weighing in on a finalized list since he said he wants to make a blog on it.

 

[DivineAura44]

Didn't include zenkais, limit breaks, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJG, UI, MUI or most of his training actually, just stuck an at least in front to denote that they are unquantifiable significant speed boosts.

I only used SSJ1, KKx20 (once), the obvious Kaioken boost from Goku's second fight with Hit, and a 50x for SSJB due to the fact it is stated to be SSJG using SSJ which is a 50x multiplier. The only one you could really argue is SSJB if you wanted to be anal about it since its is a heavily implied multiplier, but then again I didn't fully flesh out the rest of the list either so I would be surprised if it wasn't well into the sextillions at least anyway even removing SSJB. My first list was more of an example than a finished product.

I am waiting for @Zamasu_Chan to present his list before weighing in on a finalized list since he said he wants to make a blog on it.

You can put it as x10, the multiplier I think it's atleast stated as. It's stated it might be more but point still stands.

 

[DivineAura44]

I can see why someone would have a problem with X50

 

[KLOL506]

Well, considering just how much superior MUI is to every single one of Goku's previous forms, I wouldn't doubt MUI being superior to SSB by over tenfold or even more honestly. So Goku hitting the sextillions range with MUI really isn't that far-fetched.

 

[DivineAura44]

*I meant the boost from SSG -> SSB is 10-50

 

[KLOL506]

*I meant the boost from SSG -> SSB is 10-50

Not too sure about this myself, multipliers post-Frieza Saga have always been too iffy to consistently and accurately gauge.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@KLOL506 I am fairly certain it was accepted that SSJ is a 50x multiplier due to its performance in relation to Kaiokenx20 and Frieza's percent's. So that should be included in any scaling regardless, since as you said, the multiplier doesn't just disappear, that would make no sense, it may get larger with higher grades, but the 50x is perfectly useable as a conservative number for SSJ1.

SSJB is implied to be 50x due to being SSJG turning Super Saiyan, which is a 50x boost. Although They don't come right out and say SSJB is a 50x boost so although I think it is a perfectly reasonable conclusion, I could see how some people might act anal about it and want to call it unquantifiable.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm inclined to agree with Ryu on that.

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL506 I am fairly certain it was accepted that SSJ is a 50x multiplier due to its performance in relation to Kaiokenx20 and Frieza's percent's. So that should be included in any scaling regardless, since as you said, the multiplier doesn't just disappear, that would make no sense, it may get larger with higher grades, but the 50x is perfectly useable as a conservative number for SSJ1.

SSJB is implied to be 50x due to being SSJG turning Super Saiyan, which is a 50x boost. Although They don't come right out and say SSJB is a 50x boost so although I think it is a perfectly reasonable conclusion, I could see how some people might act anal about it and want to call it unquantifiable.

AFAIK only Frieza Saga SSJ1 was accepted to have a multiplier.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@KLOL506 That makes no sense. By that logic Android arc SSJ Goku is rated slower than Frieza saga Goku since your no longer applying the multiplier to SSJ. Just like Kaioken can still be used so would SSJ1 at least. They still use the multiplier in the stats so I don't think that's accurate, and if it is they need to change that. Basically stick the 50x multiplier into your scaling at least and I would think it is a good start to a conservative chain.