Minor Servant Lifting Strength Upgrades

[ThePerpetual]

Keeping this short, and to the point: as is, the Lifting Strength of Servants, on our Nasuverse/Fate pages, is somewhat lacking, essentially scaling everyone to the same Class 25 feat that Saber performed in Fate/Zero.

In accordance with this calculatio (at least, assuming no objections arise to it), I believe that Rider: and all Servants with a C Strength Parameter or higher, as consequence: should be upgraded to Class 50 Lifting Strength.

Additionally, currently we have Rider of Red listed as Class K, for being able to push a jet with his bare hands. Seeing as he had B+ in Strength at the time, I don't see why this isn't scaled to other Servants who have a Strength parameter of B+ or higher: again, all other stats are scaled between Servants without hassle with the understanding that the verse as a whole functions on at least some consistent rules as to how its mechanics (ex. Parameters) function.

 

[ThePerpetual]

A thing, of note: the way Parameters supposedly work, in Fate, is such that a "+" denotes no actual baseline improvement over the general performance of the base rank. Rather, it simply allows for the temporary doubling of that Parameter's capabilities: a burst of energy, of sorts. Even if we were to assume that's what Rider of Red was using, in pushing back that jet plane, his "base"- half of that, playing the Parameter Rules straight- should still be capable of pushing 150 tons, which still comes out to Class K. So... any Servant with B Rank STR should scale, as well, not just B+ or higher.

I suppose one could just ignore the Parameter Rules entirely for this instance, since we can't generally confirm with actual showings that Parameters work as advertised, but that seems ill-advised in this case.

 

[Overlord775]

i agree with the revisions, though shouldn't D & C Rank STR downscale to the K Class Liting Strenght ? Like, they aren't potrayed as that much weaker

 

[ThePerpetual]

I wouldn't know if that's viable back-scaling, to be honest, that's probably best left asked of more knowledgeable folks.

 

[Overlord775]

we do that for the AP, so one would think Lifting Strenght is similar

 

[Sheogorath3]

I agree with the proposed revisions

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

we do that for the AP, so one would think Lifting Strenght is similar

It's also suspect as it is. 6-C stems from Gawain's durability from taking Rhon's attack, which firstly almost killed him, meaning his durability was bypassed. And this doesn't take surface area into account, Gawain wouldn't have needed to take the full brunt of the blast since he'd only take a portion of the blast, which would be significantly lower than 6-C and still almost killed him.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

We downscale from the blast, which was lower midrange High 6-C iirc.

We downscale to lower midrange 6-C from that. Nothing is suspect.

Bluntly put, it is massively downscaled from what it would be if, like you implied, we scaled them to the full force of it.

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

It is indeed suspect, even 6-C from a High 6-C attack is questionable given that in comparison Gawain's surface area in relatively to the beam would be next to nothing. This is also ignoring the fact that 6-C is a random number, which isn't supported by the calc. The solution is rather simple, apply his surface area to the attack and then you'll be able to gain a number for his durability. Which is already iffy considering the attack almost killed him. I can survive being shot, it doesn't mean that my durability scales to the KE of the bullet, but rather that's a feat of endurance.


Prime example being Jack the Drought taking a 6-C attack from something much bigger than him, since the attack was mutiple KM in terms of size, Jack's durability would be much lower than the full force of the attack, due to his size he wouldn't have needed to take anywhere near the full amount of force. So even getting 6-C from a baseline High 6-C attack raises some flags for me

 

[ThePerpetual]

Well, Gawain is apparently only just shy of Lancer/Artoria herself: Island level+ (50 - 99.99 Gigatons), in other words: while his stats are tripled with Numeral of the Saint, which implies that, without it, Servants directly comparable to Gawain (say, Saber/Artoria) would be 16.67 - 33.33 Gigatons. The alternate way of trying to backscale from Lancer/Artoria's 124.35 Gigaton feat, given it wasn't a one-hit kill in this instance, would I guess(?) just be to divide it by our one-shot threshold (7.5, which comes out to 16.58 Gigatons of TNT), though that strikes me as a rather arbitrary means of determining that. At any rate, even if Gawain did only take a fraction of the blast in question, it's not the biggest stretch in the world to say that would come out to (a lowish, perhaps) 6-C.

...if you're asking me, anyways. But, if that's going to be challenged, probably best for another thread. Opinions on the Lifting Strength upgrade?

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Again with the backscaling thing?

Okay. I'm gonna explain.

We get 6-C by dividing the High 6-C calc by 5 times, as Gawain shouldn't scale to the full blast, as he's nearly dead from that. (5 times was decided to be a "point where it hurts a human critically")

And also, we don't do surface area for that Lion King beam thing. She destroys things using different destructive capacities.

Now that I'm at it, as for the main point of the Thread, I think the Lifting Strength thing is fine.

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

Gawain isn't just shy of Lancer herself, a casual blast almost killed him. To claim that Gawain is at all comparable to Lancer Artoria is somsthing else, considering that a casual blast from her, a blast that didn't even fully hit him was enough to almost kill him. The difference between the two is pretty large when looking at it like that.


Also the 7.5 one shot rule isn't for actual means of scaling, that's intended for versus threads where it can be deemed as a stomp. I have doubts that once surface area is taken into account for that it'll even reach 6-C.


The lifting strength feat should be fair for the stronger Servants. But i do wonder on what end your calculation is accepted at given that the ends have a lot of variables.

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

Could I see the thread where this was decided? And why wouldn't surface area apply? Means of destruction doesn't mean we'd ignore surface area, because regardless of how it's done Gawain is much smaller than the blast itself.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I'm not sure about the thread itself, but here is the calculation.

(Also, yes, that's more or less what I was digging at, by 'arbitrary'; the one-shot threshold, I mean.)

One last thing to observe-

This Translation of the Christmas 2018 Grand Order event illustrates that Caster/Anastasia, who possesses mere E Rank Lifting Strength, is capable of hoisting overhead and running around with Iva, whose mass is 2548 kg. This comes out to Class 5, and should probably be serviceable as a more specific indicator of E (and D?) Rank STR Parameter characters than the vague "Superhuman" descriptor (which even specifies that it is only meant as a mere placeholder.)

The quote-

Anastasia: Do not look down on us, old knight of France. We also have Viy's knowledge of self-defense for the royal family. The power I hold is also not something you can overlook. My strength may be rank E, but you should know that you can do anything with creativity and ingenuity.

Let's show it to them in a flash ― Emperor Ivan!

Ivan: Umu!

The two of them overlap, and combine! Mash points out that just now, Ivan jumped on top of Anastasia, but is riding on top of her upside down and forward, so his tusks still jut out!

...notably, Ivan is specified as having tusks, here- as in, that he is currently in Yaga form, not Human form (and thus that the mass is the higher of the two, as listed on his Wiki page.) Any objections to that?

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

No objections whatsoever that actually sounds solid.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Could I see the thread where this was decided? And why wouldn't surface area apply? Means of destruction doesn't mean we'd ignore surface area, because regardless of how it's done Gawain is much smaller than the blast itself.

Here.

Seems I worded the Surface Area thing response wrong.

I was trying to tell you, Destructive Capacity (Area of Effect) does not equate Attack Potency. Attacks can be in similar potency, yet the destructive effects are vastly differing.

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

When it comes to durability then yes it does. There's a certain amount of damage that the character would actually be hit by directly, if the character is smaller than the blast and or beam then they'd only be getting hit by a portion. It's pretty similar to our Inverse Square Law, if a character is caught up in an explosion blast then we need to know where they are to find how much damage they would have actually taken.


In this case Gawain is much smaller than the blast, so we'd need to find how much surface area he took up from the blast and we'd find his durability that way. Gawain wouldn't and didn't take the full brunt of the attack so Surface Area needs to be used to find his durability.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached an agreement here?

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

We deviated a tad bit by discussing something else, but yes it seems everyone is fine with the lifting strength subject. We just need to discuss on who this scales to and who doesn't.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Best I can tell, for now, the scaling would look something like-

E Rank STR: Class 5

D Rank STR: Class 5, possibly higher

C Rank STR: Class 50

B Rank STR: Class K

A Rank STR: Class K, possibly higher

EX Rank STR: Class K, possibly (or likely?) higher

Out of curiosity, wouldn't (combat-capable) Magi scale to Anastasia/E Rank STR, as well? I generally recall Magi as being treated "even if weaker than the average Servant, still above ordinary humans" in Strength in a similar way to them (maybe I misremember.)

 

[Red-Eyed_Specter]

If I recall there was something about the weakest Servants still being able to lift up I-Beams like nothing. Not sure what the yield of lifting one would be, but that's something you could use for Magi.

 

[Antvasima]

@ThePerpetual

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Since there seems to be no disputes, I will go ahead and apply this.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Get it done.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, feel free. Tell me here when I should close this thread.