DMC Minor Re-Scaling

[Mister6ame6]

Dante​

Well, since some of this stuff is very important to a big storm that is coming later down the line in not far future, but is probably a bit too controversial to require his own thread for certain proposals, i'm here making the thread today.

So here are the proposals today:


And this on his Durability: far higher with Rage Power and Devil Sword Sparda (Was capable to start resisting and getting back to his senses after he got pissed with Trish's death and start powering up in the process, while before that, Statue Mundus was easily capable to casually hurt and stun Dante and was going to easily kill him with only a single shot when he decide to stop messing around with him. Later after fully awakening his true power inherited from his father Sparda, took attacks from Full Power Mundus even when he got more stronger in mid combat to the point that he almost kill him with his attacks, but Dante was capable to survive and got more stronger in the process too. Some minutes later, when they fought inside the volcano, Dante was capable to take multiple deadly attacks from Mundus and was capable to survive the fight, albeit in a weakened state)


Add this for his DMC4 key (Much stronger than before). Since as mentioned by the devs, Dante got stronger and skilled through the years by hunting demons


Add this for his DMC5 key (After being defeat by Urizen and put in coma for one entire month, Dante was being receiving human blood to speed up his recovery and got much more stronger in the process. Fought and defeated Urizen in M12, even after he absorbed an entire month of human blood from the Qliphoth tree. Later, fought and eventually defeated Urizen even after he ate the Qliphoth fruit

Mundus​

Attack Potency: Add this for him in his statue form (Massively superior than Nelo Angelo, Nightmare and even M19 Dante, since he was capable to casually hurt and stun him and was going to easily kill him with only a single shot when he decide to stop messing around with him)

Nightmare (DMC1 and DMC5)​

Attack Potency: Complex Multiversal Level without his armor (Vastly superior than the Demon King Pluto. Superior to his DMC5 shadow counterpart,

Urizen​

Attack Potency: Complex Multiversal Level (Urizen was stated to be capable to match V's Nightmare in power), even higher with human blood, DMC5 Nero Devil Bringer and Yamato (Was capable to grow massively more stronger than before by absorbing human blood from the Qliphoth tree and also after he got DMC5 Nero Devil Bringer and Yamato, which both Devil Arms gived him a massive amount of demonic power to the point of him being capable to eventually defeat a Early Game Devil Trigger DMC5 Dante) | Complex Multiversal Level (Much more powerful than before after absorbing an entire month of human blood from the Qliphoth tree. Comparable to Shin Devil Trigger Dante in M12) | Complex Multiversal Level (Much more powerful than before after consuming the Qliphoth fruit. Comparable to Shin Devil Trigger Dante in M17)

DMC4 Nero​

Attack Potency: Building Level (Physically much more stronger then Order of the Swords Holy Knights, who are one of the bests swordsmanship and devil hunters in DMC verse while Nero is considered a prodigious warrior by his skills and recognized amongst the Order by Credo and others and even before awakening his Devil Bringer, Nero was capable to fight and eventually kill demons like the Assault while also protecting Kyrie and the kids in the process, Comparable to his DMC5 BtN self, who was still capable to fight and eventually kill a Blitz while also protecting Nico in the process, even after losing his Devil Bringer and Yamato, two of his main sources of demonic powers at that time. Nero potential is superior than Dante), eventually at least City Level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Nero was capable to easily surpass his previous level of power and skill that he had in battle when he fought against DMC4 Dante and still keep growing more powerfull and skilled throughout the fight and even state some time later, that Berial's attacks is not even half as fast and deadly as Dante's ones, or otherwise, Nero thought that he would be a little helpless against him, and eventually Nero evolved to try to kill him. Ultimately, fought and eventually defeated Bael), far higher with his Devil Bringer (When Nero awakened his Devil Bringer when his arm was injured by a Assault, his injured hand eventually became massively strong in the process), even higher with his Demon Form (Nero can awaken his true Devil Trigger in the brink of death, which amps all Nero's stats significantly, who alows him to easily stomp opponents who are vastly above his base form with only a mere attack)


Up tp Island Level, likely Large Star level (Nero become massively more stronger than before to the point that he fought and matched Echidna and later, grow strong and skilled enough to match Demon Form Credo as his equal in power and skills and eventually surpassed him. later, fought and defeated Demon Form Agnus. Ultimately was able to fight against Sanctus in his human form and to the Savior with all his gems intact), eventually Complex Multiversal Level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (After getting his essence removed from inside the Savior's core, Nero was capable to eventually grow insanely so much more stronger that he was capable to easily kill Diabolica Sanctus when he resonated with Devil Sword Sparda, which gived him a massive increase in power far beyond of any normal demon can wish to achieve it while even without the Sparda's sword, Agnus became paralysed of how sheer much power he was sensing on Sanctus in his true form compared to even Credo himself), far higher with the true power of his Devil Bringer awakened (Stronger than his human form himself, amps all Nero's stats significantly, who alows him to easily stomp opponents who are above his base form with only a few attacks), even higher with his Demon Form


Scale M20 DMC3 Dante and Vergil to somewhat comparable to M20 DMC4 Nero

DMC5 Nero​

Attack Potency: Complex Multiversal Level (Regarded by V as someone better fit to fight Urizen in his place, even when in possession of demons like Nightmare, who is comparable to DMC1 Dante. Was stated to have gotten much more stronger after training for a whole month to the point that he maybe be capable to defeat Urizen even after he absorbed an entire month of human blood from the Qliphoth tree), up to even higher with Rage Power, Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Through his maximum effort, rage and surpassing his limits, he managed to break Yamato's shield and slice Urizen's hand, although Nero was easily overpowered regardless)

Malphas​

Attack Potency: Complex Multiversal Level (Was stated to be able to whistand V and the summons power by Griffon, even when in possession of demons like Nightmare)


Well, before people try to say that V cannot use Nightmare's power when he talking about running away instead of fighting her


V uses Nightmare for anything that he knows that he can one shot in one single attack, as mentioned by Griffon, and later, is show that V indeed uses even against fodder, despite losing demonic power days over days to no end


This also affects all the characters durability, speed and lifting strength stats because of demonic power shenarigans and for the 1-C characters, scale then to immesurable speed from Pluto and the immesurable lifting strength from Nightmare

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Add this for his DMC2 key (Was capable to defeat one of Arius strongest summons Furiataurus, who was stated to be capable to reduce everything to wind and flames along with only M8 Devil Trigger DMC2 Dante being powerful enough to defeat him.

this basically says that Arius' big Pet is above Mundus and Argosax

 

[Mister6ame6]

this basically says that Arius' big Pet is above Mundus and Argosax

Well, you gotta a point there, even thought Arius controling demons on 1-C level would be a feat for him, but eh better remove since it will cause more harm then good.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

(Vastly superior than the Demon King Pluto.

source of this?

 

[Mister6ame6]

source of this?

Nightmare can casually destroy the DW whitheout effort while Pluto needs to use his all his power or a good part of it to do his 1-C feat.

That's means by statements Nightmare is stronger then Pluto and add to the fact that he is able to macth Urizen, who is Nelo Angelo level or higher along with being stated that you need to be on Mundus level to surpass him in strength just solidify that he is on DMC1 Dante level.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Much more higher should be formatted as "far higher"

Even much more higher should be formatted as "even higher"

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Dante

Add this for his DMC1 key (Fought against Nightmare three times, who was stated that you need a power comparable to the Demon King Mundus himself to surpass him in strength, and eventually was capable to grow stronger enough to finally kill him for good while Nightmare was adapting much more faster to Dante's attacks in their last encounter), much higher with Rage Power and Devil Sword Sparda (After awakening his true power inherited from his father Sparda and becoming vastly more stronger than before, Dante was capable to fight and almost defeat Mundus at first, however, Mundus survive and got much more stronger to the point that he almost kill Dante with his attacks, but Dante was capable to survive and got much more stronger in the process. Some minutes later when they fought in the volcano, Dante couldn't inflict permanent damage to Mundus, but eventually was able to, killing him in the process, and when he came back to life to fight Dante again, Mundus was still badly injured from his previous fight with Dante. Eventually sealed him away in a gap betwem the Human World and Demon World when Dante was unable to permanently kill him for good)

1) Needing power comparable to Mundus is complete bs, the simple fact that a casual statue Mundus almost killed Dante, who casually defeated Nightmare is enough to know that statement is irrelevant.

2) Literally nowhere in that scan does it say Nightmare was adapting to Dante, it only says that Nightmare is trying to revive itself.

3) This whole mundus section needs to be reworded. Dante without the Sparda is barely able to fight a dying Mundus. He needs to sword to keep up with Mundus.

4) Neither Mundus nor Dante are stated to have gotten stronger at any point during the battle

5) Mundus never ******* died in the battle

And this on his Durability: much higher with Rage Power and Devil Sword Sparda (Was capable to start resisting and getting back to his senses after he got pissed with Trish's death and start powering up in the process, while before that, Statue Mundus was easily capable to casually hurt and stun Dante and was going to easily kill him with only a single shot when he decide to stop messing around with him. Later after fully awakening his true power inherited from his father Sparda, took attacks from Full Power Mundus even when he got more stronger in mid combat to the point that he almost kill him with his attacks, but Dante was capable to survive and got more stronger in the process too. Some minutes later, when they fought inside the volcano, Dante was capable to take multiple deadly attacks from Mundus and was capable to survive the fight, albeit in a weakened state)

This isn't rage power, this is Dante unlocking the true power of the Sparda, as the video you linked above, Dante unleashed the true power he inherited from Sparda (the sword), which you see in game as the red aura that comes from him and from the damn sword

Again, nothing in those scans seem to even remotely imply Mundus or Dante got stronger mid fight.

Dunno if this is worth to add to Dante's LS section, so gonna leave here to you guys decide to what do with that (Dante was capable to adapt to withstand the extreme fires of Ifrit without succumbing to his Hellfire wrath, while ifrit was also powerful enough to restrain him in place, but Dante was capable to quickly adapt to his power and flames and take control of him in a blink of eye)

Nothing about LS, just resistance to Hellfire which they already have.

Mundus​

Attack Potency: Add this for him in his statue form (Massively superior than Nelo Angelo, Nightmare and even M19 Dante, since he was capable to casually hurt and stun him and was going to easily kill him with only a single shot when he decide to stop messing around with him)

This contradicts your Nightmare stuff from before btw but its correct.

Nightmare (DMC1 and DMC5)

Attack Potency: Complex Multiversal Level without his armor (Vastly superior than the Demon King Pluto. Comparable to his DMC5 shadow counterpart, who was capable to match Urizen in power after he discard his human side to become a true demon and becoming more stronger then before, who is comparable or stronger then his Nelo Angelo self. Is stated that you need a power comparable to the Demon King Mundus himself to surpass him in strength)

1) Nowhere in this earth is stated that Nightmare is superior to a Demon King.

2) V obviously believed that Nightmare could match and defeat Urizen, the demonic half of the DYING VERGIL, who should be way weaker than his Nelo Angelo self. This does not give any form of scaling beyond a possible lower scaling for Urizen. Here is a key point btw, V realizes he CAN'T USE Nightmare for more than a few seconds, that alone already made him doubt he could defeat Urizen.

3) Urizen discarding his humanity doesn't make him stronger, just a full demon.

4) Again: Needing power comparable to Mundus is complete bs, the simple fact that a casual statue Mundus almost killed Dante, who casually defeated Nightmare is enough to know that statement is irrelevant and full of BS.

Add this for his Durability without his armor: Complex Multiversal Level (Fought and survived tree encounters with DMC1 Dante and also was adapting much more faster to Dante's attacks in their last encounter)

1) Fighting and "surviving" fights with DMC1 Dante isn't impressive at all. Literally 3 demons "survived" against him, with him even showing mercy to them and being disgusted with their death.

2) Again: Literally nowhere in that scan does it say Nightmare was adapting to Dante, it only says that Nightmare is trying to revive itself.

3) Just to kill this off for good this time: Only Nelo Angelo (Vergil) has proved to be a danger and an equal match to Dante during DMC1 (with the obvious exception of Mundus himself) and this was stated several times with the damn guide even saying how Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent.

Urizen

Attack Potency: Complex Multiversal Level (Should be comparable or stronger then his Nelo Angelo self, since Vergil wanted to discard his human side to become a true demon to become much more stronger then he ever was as Nelo Angelo in DMC1 events, which later V confirms that he got much more power after discarding his human side to become a true demon, and as result for all his efforts, Urizen was stated to be capable to match V's Nightmare in power), much more higher with human blood, DMC5 Nero Devil Bringer and Yamato (Was capable to grow massively more stronger than before by absorbing human blood from the Qliphoth tree and also after he got DMC5 Nero Devil Bringer and Yamato, which both Devil Arms gived him a massive amount of demonic power to the point of him being capable to eventually defeat a Early Game Devil Trigger DMC5 Dante) | Complex Multiversal Level (Much more powerful than before after absorbing an entire month of human blood from the Qliphoth tree. Comparable to Shin Devil Trigger Dante in M12) | Complex Multiversal Level (Much more powerful than before after consuming the Qliphoth fruit. Comparable to Shin Devil Trigger Dante in M17)

1) Vergil discarding his humanity doesn't make him stronger, only a full demon.

2) There is 0 indication that this urizen should be stronger than Nelo as he comes from a half dead vergil who should not even scale to Nelo.

3) Vergil considered his humanity a weakness (because he has mommy issues) but that is irrelevant because we know humanity shit makes demons stronger (Dante, Vergil, Sparda, etc.)

4) V didn't say he got "much more power", just "in exchange he got power" while looking at Yamato, the blade that boost everyone in verse.

5) V said that with Nightmare with him he could oppose Urizen, remember that Urizen comes from Nelo who scales to Dante who fodderizes Nightmare. If anything the Urizen that came from the Yamato separation thing should be weaker by being comparable to Nightmare.

6) This urizen already has the devil bringer and yamato (and Nightmare is still enough to oppose him lmao), that should just be his first key, second key or the "much more higher" comes only with the human blood.

7) Where does it even say that Urizen after a month is comparable to Sin Devil Trigger Dante? He got solo'd by it and easily defeated by base Dante, forcing him to retreat to the fruit to keep up.

8) This one still isn't comparable, yes Dante used Sin Devil Trigger during the fight as seen with Visions of V but this was only during the beginning, more than that the game even shows base Dante fighting him and defeating him.

Sparda

Change this part ''defeated and sealed Argosax the Chaos, albeit with help from the Vie de Marli clan of sorcerers'' to ''defeated and sealed Argosax the Chaos, albeit with help from Matier, who was the guardian chief from the Vie de Marli clan of sorcerers at that time''

Why would this need to be changed at all? Matier fought alongside of Sparda but she wasn't the only one. She straight up told Dante the whole clan fought alongside Sparda.

DMC4 Nero​

Attack Potency: Building Level (Physically much more stronger then Order of the Swords Holy Knights, who are one of the bests swordsmanship and devil hunters in DMC verse while Nero is considered a prodigious warrior by his skills and recognized amongst the Order by Credo and others and even before awakening his Devil Bringer, Nero was capable to fight and eventually kill demons like the Assault while also protecting Kyrie and the kids in the process, Comparable to his DMC5 BtN self, who was still capable to fight and eventually kill a Blitz while also protecting Nico in the process, even after losing his Devil Bringer and Yamato, two of his main sources of demonic powers at that time. Nero potential is superior than Dante), eventually at least City Level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Nero was capable to easily surpass his previous level of power and skill that he had in battle when he fought against DMC4 Dante and still keep growing more powerfull and skilled throughout the fight and even state some time later, that Berial's attacks is not even half as fast and deadly as Dante's ones, or otherwise, Nero thought that he would be a little helpless against him, and eventually Nero evolved to try to kill him. Ultimately, fought and eventually defeated Bael), much higher with his Devil Bringer (When Nero awakened his Devil Bringer when his arm was injured by a Assault, his injured hand eventually became massively strong in the process), even much more higher with his Demon Form (Nero can awaken his true Devil Trigger in the brink of death, which amps all Nero's stats significantly, who alows him to easily stomp opponents who are vastly above his base form with only a mere attack)

Why are you comparing his BoG DMC4 self to his DMC5 self? The fact that Nero and the other guys had trouble fighting a group of scarecrows and then an Assault that almost killed them should be proof that he and his DMC5 Self who fought a Blitz, are the same in power.

Nero CAN'T awaken a DT, HE DOES NOT HAVE ONE DURING DMC4. You are literally using a concept art that never made it into the game or the novel. Wtf?

eventually Complex Multiversal Level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (After getting his essence removed from inside the Savior's core, Nero was capable to eventually grow insanely so much more stronger that he was capable to easily kill Diabolica Sanctus when he resonated with Devil Sword Sparda, which gived him a massive increase in power far beyond of any normal demon can wish to achieve it while even without the Sparda's sword, Agnus became paralysed of how sheer much power he was sensing on Sanctus in his true form compared to even Credo himself), much higher with the true power of his Devil Bringer awakened (Stronger than his human form himself, amps all Nero's stats significantly, who alows him to easily stomp opponents who are above his base form with only a few attacks), even much more higher with his Demon Form

What the actual **** were you smoking when making this one?

Resonating with the DSD doesn't mean he has all of its power, its an unknown boost of power. It being far beyond what any normal demon would achieve is the most vague line ever. What kind of normal demon does it mean? A lesser one like the sins? Fodder like Sid? A demon general like Griffon? A demon lord like Modeus? This line doesn't support anything beyond him being stronger than all the other bosses in game (of whom aren't even General level) bar Dante.

Agnus fearing it only supports the above, nothing about him having power from the Sparda directly like Dante did in DMC1.

Hell, in game he even says the Sparda is not giving him power.

Once again Nero does not ******* have a DT, this comes from material that never made it into the actual game or novel.

Scale M20 DMC3 Dante and Vergil to somewhat comparable to M20 DMC4 Nero

They are actually stronger but that's for another time.

DMC5 Nero

Attack Potency: Complex Multiversal Level (Regarded by V as someone better fit to fight Urizen in his place, even when in possession of demons like Nightmare, who is comparable to DMC1 Dante. Was stated to have gotten much more stronger after training for a whole month to the point that he maybe be capable to defeat Urizen even after he absorbed an entire month of human blood from the Qliphoth tree), up to much more higher with Rage Power, Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Through his maximum effort, rage and surpassing his limits, he managed to break Yamato's shield and slice Urizen's hand, although Nero was easily overpowered regardless)

1) Nightmare isn't remotely comparable to Dante lmao.

2) V himself already stated that fighting urizen was useless for him as he has a time limit of a few seconds with Nightmare, that's why he sought Dante and later Nero, to get every chance he could get at victory.

3) Getting stronger is cool and all but it isn't enough to justify this thing, much less when V himself says that Nero is the only thing he has left, not that he could defeat Urizen.

4) Breaking the ******* shield is still a big ass outlier for him.

Malphas

Attack Potency: Complex Multiversal Level (Was stated to be able to whistand V and the summons power by Griffon, even when in possession of demons like Nightmare)

1) Griffon said: "That's someone that is a bit too much to handle for us." This gives us 2 things, 1) Griffon knows about her 2) Griffon knows about her abilities

2) Later on we see what happens when V meets some of Malphas magic/hax, he gets ******* rekt.

With this in mind it becomes obvious what Griffon meant when he said that. They had no chance in a fight, not because of raw power but because of the witch stuff she can do.

Well, before people try to say that V cannot use Nightmare's power when he talking about running away instead of fighting her


V uses Nightmare for anything that he knows that he can one shot in one single attack, as mentioned by Griffon, and later, is show that V indeed uses even against fodder, despite losing demonic power days over days to no end

1) Using it costs V way too much, something he can't afford so late in the game as some hours later he is already crumbling, if he had used Nightmare just to deal with her then he would have died earlier (which is not his plan if you forgot)

2) V this one was done because of his issues, he saw a kid wanting to save his mom so he felt obliged to do it. Call it emotional damage if you will.

3) The difference here is that he was using the base familiars, not the big boy all the time.


Summary:

Half of the stuff here gets rejected.

* Dante is stronger than nightmare

* Mundus never died

* Sparda stays the same

* Nero doesn't get upgraded

* Nightmare is not stronger than a Demon King

* Malphas doesn't get upgraded

* read the rest of what I posted lazy bums

 

[Quang230]

Isn't end game DMC3 Vergil is state able to defeat a weakened Mundus who stronger than Nightmare. And Dante defeat Vergil, Pluto match Dante in the fight so how Nightmare superior Pluto

https://i.imgur.com/oSDx0Vf_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Isn't end game DMC3 Vergil is state able to defeat a weakened Mundus who stronger than Nightmare. And Dante defeat Vergil, Pluto match Dante in the fight so how Nightmare superior Pluto

https://i.imgur.com/oSDx0Vf_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Exactly

 

[Mister6ame6]

1) Needing power comparable to Mundus is complete bs, the simple fact that a casual statue Mundus almost killed Dante, who casually defeated Nightmare is enough to know that statement is irrelevant.

PoC is just saying that he is Mundus's strongest general, they are just not going specific of which form of Mundus they are talking about. You are talking that statement a bit too literal bro.

2) Literally nowhere in that scan does it say Nightmare was adapting to Dante, it only says that Nightmare is trying to revive itself.

''Revive'' in this context would be Nightmare trying to heal his damage that he took from Dante's attacks, the fact that even others guidebooks like Precius Tears mentions that Dante needed to attack him multiple times untill he eventually killed him is the proof of that, mind you that Dante mentions that demons when in the brink of death became 10 times more dangerous than before, so yeah, Nightmare's RE was kicking more harder than before.

3) This whole mundus section needs to be reworded. Dante without the Sparda is barely able to fight a dying Mundus. He needs to sword to keep up with Mundus.

He is not dying, he already did died and come back lul, Mundus is just injured from their previous fight.

4) Neither Mundus nor Dante are stated to have gotten stronger at any point during the battle

Idk man, Precius Tears state that Dante and Mundus was having toe to toe fight and then Dante almost defeat him, but he survive and casually hurt Dante with two mere rays of light to the point of him falling from the sky while before that they are lliterally toe to toe and even mentions that is to show ''the absolute difference in power between both him and Dante'' don't see to be a mere coincidence in my eyes.

5) Mundus never ******* died in the battle

He did he exploded like Nelo Angelo, demons commit self-destruct when they die in case you did not know (DF)

This isn't rage power, this is Dante unlocking the true power of the Sparda, as the video you linked above, Dante unleashed the true power he inherited from Sparda (the sword), which you see in game as the red aura that comes from him and from the damn sword

Dante's rage is what started kicking the release of the sword's power, we even put that as Rage Power feat on Dante's profile some year ago, what you are complaining about that now?

Again, nothing in those scans seem to even remotely imply Mundus or Dante got stronger mid fight.

Debunked majority of the arguments above, and also add to the fact that they say that Mundus was taken Dante's attacks casually when before that he almost got defeat by him just make even more obvious that he was stronger when they fought inside the volcano.

Nothing about LS, just resistance to Hellfire which they already have.

They say that ifrit restrained Dante in place, so idk, could just Dante growing stronger to submit him.

This contradicts your Nightmare stuff from before btw but its correct.

Explained above.

1) Nowhere in this earth is stated that Nightmare is superior to a Demon King.

Just like i'm said to Oliver, Nightmare can casually destroy the DW whitheout effort while Pluto needs to use his all his power or a good part of it to do his 1-C feat.

That's means by statements Nightmare is stronger then Pluto and add to the fact that he is able to macth Urizen, who is Nelo Angelo level or higher along with being stated that you need to be on Mundus level to surpass him in strength just solidify that he is on DMC1 Dante

2) V obviously believed that Nightmare could match and defeat Urizen, the demonic half of the DYING VERGIL, who should be way weaker than his Nelo Angelo self. This does not give any form of scaling beyond a possible lower scaling for Urizen. Here is a key point btw, V realizes he CAN'T USE Nightmare for more than a few seconds, that alone already made him doubt he could defeat Urizen.

Untill you proof that Vergil dropoed tiers in power, is just you headcanon man, Vergil mentions before separating himself that he wanted to discard his human side (Flesh, soul, memorys, etc) to became a true demon and later V confirms he got more power from separeting his demon to human side, so seems pretty simple to understand that Urizen is comparable or stronger then his Nelo Angelo self.

3) Urizen discarding his humanity doesn't make him stronger, just a full demon.

V disagrees with you.

4) Again: Needing power comparable to Mundus is complete bs, the simple fact that a casual statue Mundus almost killed Dante, who casually defeated Nightmare is enough to know that statement is irrelevant and full of BS.

Explained above.

1) Fighting and "surviving" fights with DMC1 Dante isn't impressive at all. Literally 3 demons "survived" against him, with him even showing mercy to them and being disgusted with their death.

Good think that is not the only proof i'm used for Nightmare scaling right? They even mention that Dante needed to attack him multiple times untill he eventually killed him, Nightmare's fights context are different my friend.

2) Again: Literally nowhere in that scan does it say Nightmare was adapting to Dante, it only says that Nightmare is trying to revive itself.

Explained above.

3) Just to kill this off for good this time: Only Nelo Angelo (Vergil) has proved to be a danger and an equal match to Dante during DMC1 (with the obvious exception of Mundus himself) and this was stated several times with the damn guide even saying how Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent.

Mundus was also a worthy opponent for Dante should we take all the scans that he even almost killed Dante casually on his statue form as bs too? And alos, all of the scans here are before Dante fought Nightmare even for the fist time, so you ''proof'' is irrelevant here.

1) Vergil discarding his humanity doesn't make him stronger, only a full demon.

V disagrees with you bro.

2) There is 0 indication that this urizen should be stronger than Nelo as he comes from a half dead vergil who should not even scale to Nelo.

Vergil wanting to discard his human side to become a true demon to be stronger then he was in life and literally showing a panel of Nelo Angelo when he do that is not really a indication of what Vergil is trying to do right?

3) Vergil considered his humanity a weakness (because he has mommy issues) but that is irrelevant because we know humanity shit makes demons stronger (Dante, Vergil, Sparda, etc.)

4) V didn't say he got "much more power", just "in exchange he got power" while looking at Yamato, the blade that boost everyone in verse.

He literally talks about emotions and stuff in the scan, and even mentions that ''Vergil trow all that away in exchange for power, and thanks to it, he obtained power''. He only mentions Yamato because she was the instrument that he used to separate himself. Of course, that both Nero's Devil Bringer and Yamato gived Urizen a massive amout of demonic power, but that don't change that trowing his human side did too, according with V at least.

5) V said that with Nightmare with him he could oppose Urizen, remember that Urizen comes from Nelo who scales to Dante who fodderizes Nightmare. If anything the Urizen that came from the Yamato separation thing should be weaker by being comparable to Nightmare.

According to V and what Vergil and VOV implies in the manga, he is stronger then his Nelo Angelo self tho.

6) This urizen already has the devil bringer and yamato (and Nightmare is still enough to oppose him lmao), that should just be his first key, second key or the "much more higher" comes only with the human blood.

He only got the boost after becoming Urizen for some reason, or otherwise, Vergil would have got stronger too.

7) Where does it even say that Urizen after a month is comparable to Sin Devil Trigger Dante? He got solo'd by it and easily defeated by base Dante, forcing him to retreat to the fruit to keep up.

Dante literally start in SDT when he fought Urizen even in the game himself and you want me to believe that he was fighting in base form just because? Do i'm need to point that DT and STD have time limit?

8) This one still isn't comparable, yes Dante used Sin Devil Trigger during the fight as seen with Visions of V but this was only during the beginning, more than that the game even shows base Dante fighting him and defeating him.

The gudebook shows Urizen tooking Dante's attacks in SDT and still being alive to the point that was able to hurt Dante himself meaning that they are comparable to eacth other, again, Do i'm need to point that DT and STD have time limit?

Why would this need to be changed at all? Matier fought alongside of Sparda but she wasn't the only one. She straight up told Dante the whole clan fought alongside Sparda.

Because she directly fought against Argosax with Sealed Sparda like the scan points? Yes the whole clan fought alongside Sparda against Argosax and his army. Demon Kings have an army of demons 9Likely infinity if we take Dante's commet in vol2 about Mundus's army as not hyperbole) in their command in case you forgot that tiny big ass detail

Why are you comparing his BoG DMC4 self to his DMC5 self? The fact that Nero and the other guys had trouble fighting a group of scarecrows and then an Assault that almost killed them should be proof that he and his DMC5 Self who fought a Blitz, are the same in power.

Wot? I literally says both Nero are comparable, so i'm don't understand your point here

Nero CAN'T awaken a DT, HE DOES NOT HAVE ONE DURING DMC4. You are literally using a concept art that never made it into the game or the novel. Wtf?

He have what do you think is he DT in DMC5 Tony? Do also need to point that his doppelganger is the true power of Devil Bringer awakened, a projection of his own soul and a reflection of his true power awakened?

Is like saying Dante don't have Majin because DMC3 and 4 never shows or mentions the form in any shape and form.

What the actual **** were you smoking when making this one?

Resonating with the DSD doesn't mean he has all of its power, its an unknown boost of power. It being far beyond what any normal demon would achieve is the most vague line ever. What kind of normal demon does it mean? A lesser one like the sins? Fodder like Sid? A demon general like Griffon? A demon lord like Modeus? This line doesn't support anything beyond him being stronger than all the other bosses in game (of whom aren't even General level) bar Dante.

Never said he got all the power of the sword tho? Considering that even on human form Sanctus is stated to have got a massive amount of demonic power and he keep up with M11 Nero, i pretty sure Diabiloca Sanctus statement is pretty clear that he far above anythint in the verse to the point of being 1-C is not really a wrong interpretation of his scans, especially with Agnus's statement with make even more obvious that even without DSS, DS is on a tier of his own.

Agnus fearing it only supports the above, nothing about him having power from the Sparda directly like Dante did in DMC1.

Never said he got all the power of the sword tho?

Hell, in game he even says the Sparda is not giving him power.

Sanctus is just saying that DSS didn't give him all the power of DSS, not that he got any boost from the sword, is even mentioned in guidebooks that Sanctus after becoming a demon resonated better with the sword then when he was a human.

Once again Nero does not ******* have a DT, this comes from material that never made it into the actual game or novel.

Explained above

They are actually stronger but that's for another time.

Ok

1) Nightmare isn't remotely comparable to Dante lmao.

Already debunked that some comments above.

2) V himself already stated that fighting urizen was useless for him as he has a time limit of a few seconds with Nightmare, that's why he sought Dante and later Nero, to get every chance he could get at victory.

Ok, don't change that one single full charge attack from Nightmare is still not enough to kill her, similar to Urizen, which means that she scales to Nightmare

3) Getting stronger is cool and all but it isn't enough to justify this thing, much less when V himself says that Nero is the only thing he has left, not that he could defeat Urizen.

Considering that he was wondering that if he could defeat Urizen or not with his new power, proves that he is 1-C becasue a tier 6, likely H4-C, will never ever stand a chance against Urizen, especially after one entire mouth of human blood boost, so Nero being V last hope don't change that Devil Breaker Nero is still 1-C

4) Breaking the ******* shield is still a big ass outlier for him.

Nero have more potential then Dante, Vergil and Sparda as stated in DF, and show in both the game, novel and also show in DMC5 game and manga, so no, Nero feat is legit and should be knowledgeable on his profile.

Cope Tony

1) Griffon said: "That's someone that is a bit too much to handle for us." This gives us 2 things, 1) Griffon knows about her 2) Griffon knows about her abilities

2) Later on we see what happens when V meets some of Malphas magic/hax, he gets ******* rekt.

If he knows about Malphas's stones abilities, then why he and V get easily cauth by then so easely? Answer me that Tony

Also Nightmare's have 1-C range, so your argument is muda anyway

With this in mind it becomes obvious what Griffon meant when he said that. They had no chance in a fight, not because of raw power but because of the witch stuff she can do.

Debunked that above

1) Using it costs V way too much, something he can't afford so late in the game as some hours later he is already crumbling, if he had used Nightmare just to deal with her then he would have died earlier (which is not his plan if you forgot)

He still was healthy when he encountered Malphas, so V have more than enough power to destroy her with Nightmare and survive to tell the tale.

2) V this one was done because of his issues, he saw a kid wanting to save his mom so he felt obliged to do it. Call it emotional damage if you will.

Don't change that he still can use Nightmare in a desperate move if necessary meaning my point still stands.

3) The difference here is that he was using the base familiars, not the big boy all the time.

That don't change that he can use Nightmare in a desperate move if needed tho.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Exactly

PoC goes against that Mundus bein 1-C, so i'm won't use that honestly, unless we are wanking alot of characters to 1-C becasue of Sparda's seal shenarigans.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

PoC goes against that Mundus bein 1-C, so i'm won't use that honestly,

I don't see any contradictions with what Vergil vs Sealed Mundus in BtN against PoC stuff. I don't know how you reached that comclusion.

unless we are wanking alot of characters to 1-C becasue of Sparda's seal shenarigans.

And you aren't?
By making DMC4 Nero 1C.. you make Trish 1C as well.. since she is above Full Power Saviour even with her wielding DSS.
And then we have V's summons Griffon and Shadow utterly stomping Elder Geryon + Cavelier Angelo.. who should be stronger than DT Trish. So all the Mundus Generals become 1C as well.
This contradicts your own assertions that Sealed Mundus from DMC3 is weaker.
Because even the weakest version of Mundus from 2000 years ago fresh after Sparda's sealing will absolutely godstomp his own generals like Griffon, Phantom and Nightmare.

So end up scaling everyone to everyone to 1C and they simultaneously are stronger and weaker than each character at same time in ginormous cyclical scaling chains.

So where does that leave us??

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Anyways... I will give a comprehensive response to OP after fee hours.

 

[Mister6ame6]

I don't see any contradictions with what Vergil vs Sealed Mundus in BtN against PoC stuff. I don't know how you reached that comclusion.

Because they said that the seal that Sparda put on the Demon Kings is to weaken then to the point that others people have a chance to beat then (The people that oversee the place where the Demon Kings is sealed)

And you aren't?
By making DMC4 Nero 1C.. you make Trish 1C as well.. since she is above Full Power Saviour even with her wielding DSS.
And then we have V's summons Griffon and Shadow utterly stomping Elder Geryon + Cavelier Angelo.. who should be stronger than DT Trish. So all the Mundus Generals become 1C as well.
This contradicts your own assertions that Sealed Mundus from DMC3 is weaker.
Because even the weakest version of Mundus from 2000 years ago fresh after Sparda's sealing will absolutely godstomp his own generals like Griffon, Phantom and Nightmare.

Explain to me how does Diabolica Sanctus even whitheout DSS who already dwarfs the entire mid tier cast, let alone with sword remotely scale comparable or even below the Mundus's generals (The strongest Mid Tier of DMC cast).

The Nero in M20 got massively more powerful (likely by getting Yamato once again too) to the point he dwarfest the entire Mid Tier cast easily, even without considering Sanctus 1-C with the sword, Nero already is massively more stronger then anything non God Tier in DMC at this point.

So end up scaling everyone to everyone to 1C and they simultaneously are stronger and weaker than each character at same time in ginormous cyclical scaling chains.

So where does that leave us??

Good thing my scans shows that he was jumping tiers to no end and nuke completely any scaling with the Mid Tiers right?

 

[Ibrahem]

this basically says that Arius' big Pet is above Mundus and Argosax

Not exactly. Yes it would be stronger than mundus but not argosax.
DMC2 argosax is not equal to DMC1 mundus, they were equal 2000 years ago when they split the demon world, so They can't be equal by the time of dmc2, because mundus was sealed for 2000 years by sparda while argosax remained in the demon world unsealed for hundreds of years. So he could've simply surpassed mundus by alot and we already have examples of demons like sparda growing in strength without even doing anything let alone a demon King who's actively conquering the rest of the demon world.

So yeah i wouldn't say this statement contradicts the scaling, infact it makes sense considering half dead argosax reacts to and blocks a stinger from dante, and Dante then resorts to using a charged shot, while void mundus got obliteratedd by normal sword slashes and non-charged bullets.

Also Dante constantly grows stronger due to demon physiology, so even if you think argosax got no diffed by base dante, you can't scale M8 dante to M18 dante

 

[Ibrahem]

I agree with upgrading malphas and dmc5 nero.
The other stuff is contentious. And some of it is unneeded imo such as the changes to Dante's profile

 

[Ibrahem]

Griffon said: "That's someone that is a bit too much to handle for us." This gives us 2 things, 1) Griffon knows about her 2) Griffon knows about her abilities

2) Later on we see what happens when V meets some of Malphas magic/hax, he gets ******* rekt.

With this in mind it becomes obvious what Griffon meant when he said that. They had no chance in a fight, not because of raw power but because of the witch stuff she can do.

I'll have to disagree with you here. Knowing who malphas is doesn't mean he knows all her abilities or what kind of strategy she would use against them. Griffon didn't even know that malphas would leave V by himself after stealing the familiars, he says "hey you're alive!" when he meets V again.
Malphas also didn't do that bfr stuff against nero, so it's not like that bfr thing is her famous way of fighting if that makes sense.

Griffon says they shouldn't fight her, that's not something you say about a demon you can easily one shot with nightmare.

 

[Quang230]

I think one important thing should be consider that is Mundus can able easily kill Dante is when he in human form not his devil trigger. I'm mean he be consider is threat to Mundus so Dante full power his devil trigger is what should be still somewhat scailing to Mundus

 

[Ibrahem]

Should be comparable or stronger then his Nelo Angelo self, since Vergil wanted to discard his human side to become a true demon to become much more stronger then he ever was as Nelo Angelo in DMC1 events

i see no evidence of this, vergil doesn't say "im going to be stronger than ever" or something of the sort, he just wants to be stronger than his current self, and i highly doubt that a vergil who is corrupted and can barely walk is stronger than nelo angelo

eventually Complex Multiversal Level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (After getting his essence removed from inside the Savior's core, Nero was capable to eventually grow insanely so much more stronger that he was capable to easily kill Diabolica Sanctus when he resonated with Devil Sword Sparda, which gived him a massive increase in power far beyond of any normal demon can wish to achieve it while even without the Sparda's sword, Agnus became paralysed of how sheer much power he was sensing on Sanctus in his true form compared to even Credo himself)

Another issue here, being far superior to normal demons doesn't make you a god tier that can blow up the demon world. we have multiple statements confirming the existence of an infinite number of demons, so if you think about it, compared to ALL demons, the demons who scale to 1C are almost non existent in the verse. so i don't think this reasoning is good enough to make sanctus and dmc4 nero 1C

 

[RedReaper]

Not exactly. Yes it would be stronger than mundus but not argosax.
DMC2 argosax is not equal to DMC1 mundus, they were equal 2000 years ago when they split the demon world, so They can't be equal by the time of dmc2, because mundus was sealed for 2000 years by sparda while argosax remained in the demon world unsealed for hundreds of years. So he could've simply surpassed mundus by alot and we already have examples of demons like sparda growing in strength without even doing anything let alone a demon King who's actively conquering the rest of the demon world.

So yeah i wouldn't say this statement contradicts the scaling, infact it makes sense considering half dead argosax reacts to and blocks a stinger from dante, and Dante then resorts to using a charged shot, while void mundus got obliteratedd by normal sword slashes and non-charged bullets.

Also Dante constantly grows stronger due to demon physiology, so even if you think argosax got no diffed by base dante, you can't scale M8 dante to M18 dante

Wha-? How can Mundus be weaker than Argosax? Sure, while Mundus was sealed away and Argosax was banished back to the DW, there's no implication of power growth. In fact, given that Argosax had to transform into the Despair Embodied for all of his powers, it could be argued that the sealing was more effective than anyone could know in regards to weaking Demon King 2.

This very narrative is also directly contradicted by WoG/"History of DMC." As in, it verbatim says "Dante proved he could beat enemies as strong as the Demon King once more..." So they're explicitly calling them identical in power. This makes sense, because Base Dante in Vol.2 killed stronger Mundus/V.Mundus casually, which is why Argosax was also easily handled and throttled by the Legendary Devil Hunter.

 

[Ibrahem]

Wha-? How can Mundus be weaker than Argosax? Sure, while Mundus was sealed away and Argosax was banished back to the DW, there's no implication of power growth. In fact, given that Argosax had to transform into the Despair Embodied for all of his powers, it could be argued that the sealing was more effective than anyone could know in regards to weaking Demon King 2.

This very narrative is also directly contradicted by WoG/"History of DMC." As in, it verbatim says "Dante proved he could beat enemies as strong as the Demon King once more..." So they're explicitly calling them identical in power. This makes sense, because Base Dante in Vol.2 killed stronger Mundus/V.Mundus casually, which is why Argosax was also easily handled and throttled by the Legendary Devil Hunter.

Argosax and mundus being equal is the reason they split the demon world, which happened 2000+ years prior to the events of dmc2.
Mundus gets sealed for 2000 years, meaning we have no reason to assume he grew in strength, while argosax is left in the demon world for hundreds of years to conquer the rest of it. there's no way argosax is still the same strength after 1000+ years, demons can grow in strength by just existing in the DW, let alone a demon King.


the idea of mundus being equal to dmc2 argosax is also contradicted by feats, as mister pointed out, the furiataurus (a dmc2 boss) can only be defeated by Dante's inner demon, implying he went devil trigger against this thing, argosax scales above furiataurus while mundus scales below casual vol2 dante who's even weaker than dmc2 dante.

Argosax also does better than void mundus against a stronger dante, even when he's on the verge of death he reacts to and blocks a stinger, then dante uses a charged shot to finish him off.
void mundus never reacted to and blocked Dante's normal slashes let alone a stinger, and never pushed dante to use a charged shot. that is on top of the fact that dmc2 dante >>>vol2 dante like i said

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

bruh,that dmc 4 nero 1-C,i won't never agree with that lol

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

PoC is just saying that he is Mundus's strongest general, they are just not going specific of which form of Mundus they are talking about. You are talking that statement a bit too literal bro.

That's not what the scan says and not why you where using it. If I'm taking the scan literally then why are you even using it? You are not making sense here.

''Revive'' in this context would be Nightmare trying to heal his damage that he took from Dante's attacks, the fact that even others guidebooks like Precius Tears mentions that Dante needed to attack him multiple times untill he eventually killed him is the proof of that, mind you that Dante mentions that demons when in the brink of death became 10 times more dangerous than before, so yeah, Nightmare's RE was kicking more harder than before.

The **** are you talking about? There is no context here besides what it says and what happens in game, it straight up means trying to heal himself from the damage Dante has inflicted upon him which literally happens in game. Needing to attack him multiple times is not proof of anything since Nightmare is a blob and has multiple core.

Again, just because demons in general have RE doesn't mean that Nightmare was evolving or some shit to compete with Dante at all. Bring proof that Nightmare did or just drop it.

He is not dying, he already did died and come back lul, Mundus is just injured from their previous fight.

Where is the ******* scan that says Mundus died?

Idk man, Precius Tears state that Dante and Mundus was having toe to toe fight and then Dante almost defeat him, but he survive and casually hurt Dante with two mere rays of light to the point of him falling from the sky while before that they are lliterally toe to toe and even mentions that is to show ''the absolute difference in power between both him and Dante'' don't see to be a mere coincidence in my eyes.

In a fight between 2 equally matched characters one mistake can be fatal. That absolutely does not mean they are getting stronger here without any statement or showing of that.

'the absolute difference in power between both him and Dante''

Again you are pulling shit out of nowhere, the scan says :"Mundus too, lived up to his name as a demon emperor. The overwhelming destructive power of rays of light, flaming bullets, and even blasting molten to intercept him."

There is nothing about an absolute power difference between them.

He did he exploded like Nelo Angelo, demons commit self-destruct when they die in case you did not know (DF)

He absolutely did not explode, half of his body got vaporized and then it became a white screen.

The scan from the memorial album doesn't say a single thing about him dying either. Just that he vanished into the void (aka he fleed into his own pocket dimension to escape from Dante) when he realized he was gonna get killed.

Dante's rage is what started kicking the release of the sword's power, we even put that as Rage Power feat on Dante's profile some year ago, what you are complaining about that now?

Because this isn't rage power, its literally the sword of Sparda amping him, yeah he is mad as **** and bloodlusted but his power doesn't come from that, that's why it isn't rage power.

Debunked majority of the arguments above, and also add to the fact that they say that Mundus was taken Dante's attacks casually when before that he almost got defeat by him just make even more obvious that he was stronger when they fought inside the volcano.

You didn't debunk anything, all the contrary you are showing how dumb all this is.

And again nothing you have posted proves your points.

They say that ifrit restrained Dante in place, so idk, could just Dante growing stronger to submit him.

With Hellfire, something we already have in the profile.

Explained above.

Same thing as before, void arguments with scans that support absolutely nothing.

Just like i'm said to Oliver, Nightmare can casually destroy the DW whitheout effort while Pluto needs to use his all his power or a good part of it to do his 1-C feat.

Where does it says that Pluto had to use all or a good part of his powers for that? Or that nightmare can casually destroy the DW?

That's means by statements Nightmare is stronger then Pluto and add to the fact that he is able to macth Urizen, who is Nelo Angelo level or higher along with being stated that you need to be on Mundus level to surpass him in strength just solidify that he is on DMC1 Dante

Again, 0 statements, 0 scans and debunked arguments. The would matching urizen is irrelevant when Urizen already scales lower than Nelo angelo.

Untill you proof that Vergil dropoed tiers in power, is just you headcanon man, Vergil mentions before separating himself that he wanted to discard his human side (Flesh, soul, memorys, etc) to became a true demon and later V confirms he got more power from separeting his demon to human side, so seems pretty simple to understand that Urizen is comparable or stronger then his Nelo Angelo self.

So you are telling me that a vergil that can barely walk and fight some fodder is supposed to be in peak condition comparable to a stronger form made by mundus to specifically take his weakness away? I'm tempted to drop this argument here and just ignore this thread completely you know

All that shit about getting more power was already debunked above, let me repeat myself:

V obviously believed that Nightmare could match and defeat Urizen, the demonic half of the DYING VERGIL, who should be way weaker than his Nelo Angelo self. This does not give any form of scaling beyond a possible lower scaling for Urizen. Here is a key point btw, V realizes he CAN'T USE Nightmare for more than a few seconds, that alone already made him doubt he could defeat Urizen.

Vergil considered his humanity a weakness (because he has mommy issues) but that is irrelevant because we know humanity shit makes demons stronger (Dante, Vergil, Sparda, etc.)

V didn't say he got "much more power", just "in exchange he got power" while looking at Yamato, the blade that boost everyone in verse.

I don't even know if he is even talking about Urizen or if he is talking about Vergil. Your argument is even worse than before.

V disagrees with you.

He gained Yamato and he gained power with Yamato. Becoming a full demon by itself isn't what gave him power (and considering that we don't know if he is talking about Urizen or Vergil then I really doubt even more your arguments)

Explained above.

Same thing as before, 0 scans, 0 arguments, all debunked, etc.

Good think that is not the only proof i'm used for Nightmare scaling right? They even mention that Dante needed to attack him multiple times untill he eventually killed him, Nightmare's fights context are different my friend.

And all the proof you used was debunked, irrelevant or out of place here so we are back to what I said. No proof that Nightmare scales to him.

Explained above.

I'm going to start ignoring your explained above comments and considere them debunked

Mundus was also a worthy opponent for Dante should we take all the scans that he even almost killed Dante casually on his statue form as bs too? And alos, all of the scans here are before Dante fought Nightmare even for the fist time, so you ''proof'' is irrelevant here.

Did you even read what I said?

3) Just to kill this off for good this time: Only Nelo Angelo (Vergil) has proved to be a danger and an equal match to Dante during DMC1 (with the obvious exception of Mundus himself) and this was stated several times with the damn guide even saying how Dante's heart was filled with excitement at the chance encounter with a worthy opponent.

And no, this scan goes up to mission 17, you fight Nightmare in mission 16. Also another thing of notice, if Nightmare was remotely as powerful as you are trying to make it to be it would be noticed in the memorial album or somewhere else but instead all the sources say how Nelo was the only one to match Dante.

Basically no, Nightmare doesn't scale.

V disagrees with you bro.

Same thing as above.

Vergil wanting to discard his human side to become a true demon to be stronger then he was in life and literally showing a panel of Nelo Angelo when he do that is not really a indication of what Vergil is trying to do right?

He literally talks about emotions and stuff in the scan, and even mentions that ''Vergil trow all that away in exchange for power, and thanks to it, he obtained power''. He only mentions Yamato because she was the instrument that he used to separate himself. Of course, that both Nero's Devil Bringer and Yamato gived Urizen a massive amout of demonic power, but that don't change that trowing his human side did too, according with V at least.

There is a difference between wanting to get rid of your something by yourself (Vergil-Urizen) to becoming a slave for someone else in exchange to get power and the same thing as before (Vergil-Nelo), so no, this isn't the same.

Vergil considered his humanity a weakness (because he has mommy issues) but that is irrelevant because we know humanity shit makes demons stronger (Dante, Vergil, Sparda, etc.)

V didn't say he got "much more power", just "in exchange he got power" while looking at Yamato, the blade that boost everyone in verse.

I don't even know if he is even talking about Urizen or if he is talking about Vergil.

But regardless, if he is talking about Urizen getting power or Vergil embracing his demonic side to get powerful, it doesn't justify Urizen being as strong as Nelo.

According to V and what Vergil and VOV implies in the manga, he is stronger then his Nelo Angelo self tho.

IDK what manga are you reading but nowhere in the scans you used is that even remotely implied.

He only got the boost after becoming Urizen for some reason, or otherwise, Vergil would have got stronger too.

Ofc Vergil got it too but it was irrelevant to him as he was dying. Hell even the remnants of his humanity got enough power to change power with Nightmare.

Dante literally start in SDT when he fought Urizen even in the game himself and you want me to believe that he was fighting in base form just because? Do i'm need to point that DT and STD have time limit?

Because he just obtained the form and rushed there in hopes of saving Nero, what did you expect? To get there with a new form and immediately drop it to blueball every single player who just got a new shiny form? Hell even the game shows he didn't even need it as he casually ragdolled Urizen in base form.

Even more proof of this is the gameplay itself, SDT eat's Urizen health bar in a couple of hits, it does with every enemy but here it is more notable and its just to show how much stronger Dante is in comparison.

SDT has a timelimit, DT doesn't but that's irrelevant.

The gudebook shows Urizen tooking Dante's attacks in SDT and still being alive to the point that was able to hurt Dante himself meaning that they are comparable to eacth other, again, Do i'm need to point that DT and STD have time limit?

Taking 1 attack doesn't mean he is suddenly comparable to Dante and again, the game literally shows base Dante manhandling Urizen. If the game showed DT or SDT Dante then you would have a point but alas that isn't the case.

Because she directly fought against Argosax with Sealed Sparda like the scan points? Yes the whole clan fought alongside Sparda against Argosax and his army. Demon Kings have an army of demons 9Likely infinity if we take Dante's commet in vol2 about Mundus's army as not hyperbole) in their command in case you forgot that tiny big ass detail

She did fight alongside sparda but as she said, so did her whole clan. Absolutely nothing changes. Argosax had an army but that doesn't mean the whole clan was fighting them while only 2 demons took on argosax. Hell nowhere does it say his army got summoned there either. The only demons that we know where there are Argosax and Bolverk. Maybe fodder that made it across the holes but nothing else about his army.

So no, this doesn't mean she was the only one fighting with him.

Wot? I literally says both Nero are comparable, so i'm don't understand your point here

My bad there, I meant to say they are NOT in the same power level.

He have what do you think is he DT in DMC5 Tony? Do also need to point that his doppelganger is the true power of Devil Bringer awakened, a projection of his own soul and a reflection of his true power awakened?

Nero CAN'T awaken a DT, HE DOES NOT HAVE ONE DURING DMC4. You are literally using a concept art that never made it into the game or the novel. Wtf?

I never said anything about DMC5. Ah yes, the true power of his DEVIL BRINGER, not a devil trigger that manifests his demonic powers by transforming him into his true self (a demon)

Is like saying Dante don't have Majin because DMC3 and 4 never shows or mentions the form in any shape and form.

There is a big ass difference between a transformation that exist in a manga and a game (majin form) and something that only exist in discarded concepts that never made it into the games or novels (perfect devil trigger/DMC4 Nero DT)

Never said he got all the power of the sword tho? Considering that even on human form Sanctus is stated to have got a massive amount of demonic power and he keep up with M11 Nero, i pretty sure Diabiloca Sanctus statement is pretty clear that he far above anythint in the verse to the point of being 1-C is not really a wrong interpretation of his scans, especially with Agnus's statement with make even more obvious that even without DSS, DS is on a tier of his own.

Then why are you even making him tier 1?

Again, having gained a massive amout of power is the most vague line ever. There is 0 point of comparision for us to properly scale.

What you are sure about is irrelevant to us because it is headcanon. Nowhere is ever stated that Sanctus Diabolica was far above anything in the verse or that he was a god tier. Agnus statement is equally shit tier since he has never encountered and let alone fought a God tier. The ****** didn't even know about Nightmare.

All of this is just enough to make him stronger than most of the cast of DMC4, of which ONLY 1 IS A GOD TIER AND SACNTUS DOES NOT SCALE TO HIM

Never said he got all the power of the sword tho?

Same thing as above. If he never got the full power then why making him tier 1?

Sanctus is just saying that DSS didn't give him all the power of DSS, not that he got any boost from the sword, is even mentioned in guidebooks that Sanctus after becoming a demon resonated better with the sword then when he was a human.

Resonating better with Sparda =/= getting some massive boost of power from it.

Hell if anything thats the only reason why he could use the sword and not get ****** like Arkham.

Explained above

You explained shit

Already debunked that some comments above.

You did not.

Ok, don't change that one single full charge attack from Nightmare is still not enough to kill her, similar to Urizen, which means that she scales to Nightmare

LMAO.

Give me the scan that says a full charge attack form nightmare wont kill her.

Already explained the urizen shit in my original post.

Considering that he was wondering that if he could defeat Urizen or not with his new power, proves that he is 1-C becasue a tier 6, likely H4-C, will never ever stand a chance against Urizen, especially after one entire mouth of human blood boost, so Nero being V last hope don't change that Devil Breaker Nero is still 1-C

That proves absolutely nothing. I could wonder if I can make it to space but that doesn't mean I can do it.

V being desparate to use anything is not proof of anything.

I'm having an aneurysm with these arguments.

Nero have more potential then Dante, Vergil and Sparda as stated in DF, and show in both the game, novel and also show in DMC5 game and manga, so no, Nero feat is legit and should be knowledgeable on his profile.

Having more potential =/= Having power or being powerful enough.

It is a legit outlier. The feat exists, it happened but it doesn't stop it from being an outlier. We don't use those.

If he knows about Malphas's stones abilities, then why he and V get easily cauth by then so easely? Answer me that Tony

He knows about Malphas, the powerful sorceress of hell. For someone like that to make themselves know you have to do something relevant, like idk, ******* some powerful demon with magic or something like that.

Take that into account to know you only need basic level of knowledge to know you are not in a good position in certain situations. Like, I only need to know that mike tyson is the boxer champion to know I have no way of beating him, and thats without getting in deep about his feats.

Also Nightmare's have 1-C range, so your argument is muda anyway

How is it uselsess? V pulls Nightmare some planets away and then ******* dies to the other demons or the lack of demonic power? Yeah that's some godly strategy for someone who is trying to survive and use the less amount of power as possible.

He still was healthy when he encountered Malphas, so V have more than enough power to destroy her with Nightmare and survive to tell the tale.

Same thing as above. Using Nightmare there would have ****** him up beyond belief. Just look at the timeline.

Around 7 AM V encounters Malphas for the first time, around 5 hours later he can barely run normally and then 2 hours later he starts breaking down. V already knew he didn't have much time left and pulling Nightmare there would just have made it worse. He had no need to risk everything just for a cheap kill that didn't guarantee he was gonna merge with Urizen.

Don't change that he still can use Nightmare in a desperate move if necessary meaning my point still stands.

Oh yeah, he can pull Nightmare out of desperation but 1) He wasn't in a desperate situation at that point so he had absolutely no reason to do it 2) Look above 3) He had no reason to confront Malphas and Cavalier outside of wanting to prevent them from reaching the Sparda (which he did by taking on Cavalier alone)

That don't change that he can use Nightmare in a desperate move if needed tho.

Same as above and my first post.

I'll have to disagree with you here. Knowing who malphas is doesn't mean he knows all her abilities or what kind of strategy she would use against them. Griffon didn't even know that malphas would leave V by himself after stealing the familiars, he says "hey you're alive!" when he meets V again.
Malphas also didn't do that bfr stuff against nero, so it's not like that bfr thing is her famous way of fighting if that makes sense.

Griffon says they shouldn't fight her, that's not something you say about a demon you can easily one shot with nightmare.

Malphas is known because she is a powerful sorceress of hell. How can you get known with such tittle? Easy, pull some dumb shit with magic and ta dah.

It's like "Malphas can hax these strong dudes with her powers" "Damn she is a powerful sorceress"

You don't need deep knowledge to know her magic can potentially **** all of them up.

Refer to my example above. I can hear X is a heavyweight boxer, just like that I know I will get ****** if I try to fight them.

What I'm trying to say is that you don't need to be all knowing about someone to understand you are out of your league like you and your girlfriend for example :v

The rest of the Nightmare argument was tackled above.

Argosax and mundus being equal is the reason they split the demon world, which happened 2000+ years prior to the events of dmc2.
Mundus gets sealed for 2000 years, meaning we have no reason to assume he grew in strength, while argosax is left in the demon world for hundreds of years to conquer the rest of it. there's no way argosax is still the same strength after 1000+ years, demons can grow in strength by just existing in the DW, let alone a demon King.

We have no reason to assume that Argosax grew in power either even if left alone in hell.

Unless you can pull some statement saying he was gaining more and more power this is headcanon at best

the idea of mundus being equal to dmc2 argosax is also contradicted by feats, as mister pointed out, the furiataurus (a dmc2 boss) can only be defeated by Dante's inner demon, implying he went devil trigger against this thing, argosax scales above furiataurus while mundus scales below casual vol2 dante who's even weaker than dmc2 dante.

As the DMC timeline in 5 and BtN says it is Argosax who is equal in power to Mundus, specifically DMC2 Argosax with the timeline.

Furitaurus pushing Dante to the limit and Dante needing to use DT is the biggest dumbest thing that never happened. BtN tells us that Dante didn't even remember the demons in that mission besides Oranguerra and VoV tells us it was an easy job and a disappointment. The game even shows how casually Dante got out of there. This coupled with the scaling chain (DMC2 Dante > Chen > Vol2 Dante > Void Mundus > Mundus = Argosax) is more than enough for us to drop this line that makes absolutely no sense.

Argosax also does better than void mundus against a stronger dante, even when he's on the verge of death he reacts to and blocks a stinger, then dante uses a charged shot to finish him off.

What do you mean does better? He literally got rekt and was being toyed by Dante. Void Mundus tanked an ounslaught from a casual Dante while Argosax got ****** easily by a bored Dante.

void mundus never reacted to and blocked Dante's normal slashes let alone a stinger, and never pushed dante to use a charged shot. that is on top of the fact that dmc2 dante >>>vol2 dante like i said

How are you going to react or dodge to something if you are literally everywhere? The charged shot was Dante showing off, he didn't need to do it but he did it to amuse himself, you can even see him smirk when doing it.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I was going to prepare a more detailed post but I'm afraid it won't be necessary, I agree with Tony on every single part, specially 1-C DMC4 Nero and that demon pushing Dante's Base form in DMC2

Some scans are taken here to extreme interpretations like Dante only "finally" being able to give a fatal wound to Mundus being equal to him "growing in power to harm what he couldn't", that's a huge push, and absolutely ignores most of a battle's factors, that being skill, speed, strategy, there are NUMEROUS ways of Mundus being able to avoid a fatal damage and they are all being ignored. This type of scaling is repeated on other sections on the OP

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I was going to prepare a more detailed post but I'm afraid it won't be necessary, I agree with Tony on every single part, specially 1-C DMC4 Nero and that demon pushing Dante's Base form in DMC2

Oh damn, if you agree with me the end of the world is coming...

I need to run!!!!!!!!

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Yeap, apparently it happened

 

[Ibrahem]

Malphas is known because she is a powerful sorceress of hell. How can you get known with such tittle? Easy, pull some dumb shit with magic and ta dah.

It's like "Malphas can hax these strong dudes with her powers" "Damn she is a powerful sorceress"

You don't need deep knowledge to know her magic can potentially **** all of them up.

Refer to my example above. I can hear X is a heavyweight boxer, just like that I know I will get ****** if I try to fight them.

What I'm trying to say is that you don't need to be all knowing about someone to understand you are out of your league like you and your girlfriend for example :v

The rest of the Nightmare argument was tackled above.

assuming that griffon doesn't wanna fight her because because of her hax is a valid assumption. but you know what else is a valid assumption? griffon not wanting to fight her because she's superior to them stats wise.
infact, it's assuming griffon sensed her power and said "nah" is alot more believable than him knowing that she can bfr V, drain him and steal the familiars, why? griffon is a discarded memory of vergil, he wouldn't know stuff that vergil didn't, so under what circumstances would vergil know that malphas can do all the stuff she did to V? (of course im talking about vergil before separating himself)

your interpretation requires alot more headcanon, whereas im just saying griffon can sense her (or had previously sensed her or was told how powerful she is, take your pick on that one) and came to the conclusion that they can't take her in a fight.

malphas being that powerful isn't weird from a narrative perspective either, nightmare was a general of mundus while malphas is a general urizen. and considering the difference in power between urizen and mundus is immeasurable (not literally but you get what i mean) it's not far fetch to say one of urizen's strongest generals would scale above one of mundus's strongest generals.

Also, ironically for this debate, malphas only loses to someone who V himself admits his inferiority to, so she has no anti-feats or anything, infact her loss to nero makes the scaling all the more consistent

 

[Ibrahem]

@Tony_di_bugalu as for the whole furiataurus and argosax stuff, let's save that discussion for another day so we don't overflow this thread and turn it into something completely different. i agree that the furiataurus statement shouldn't be added into the profile cuz it's not necessary and it just makes the profile Harder to read for the casual reader. so I'll leave it at that

 

[Deadguy]

assuming that griffon doesn't wanna fight her because because of her hax is a valid assumption. but you know what else is a valid assumption? griffon not wanting to fight her because she's superior to them stats wise.
infact, it's assuming griffon sensed her power and said "nah" is alot more believable than him knowing that she can bfr V, drain him and steal the familiars, why? griffon is a discarded memory of vergil, he wouldn't know stuff that vergil didn't, so under what circumstances would vergil know that malphas can do all the stuff she did to V? (of course im talking about vergil before separating himself)

your interpretation requires alot more headcanon, whereas im just saying griffon can sense her (or had previously sensed her or was told how powerful she is, take your pick on that one) and came to the conclusion that they can't take her in a fight.

malphas being that powerful isn't weird from a narrative perspective either, nightmare was a general of mundus while malphas is a general urizen. and considering the difference in power between urizen and mundus is immeasurable (not literally but you get what i mean) it's not far fetch to say one of urizen's strongest generals would scale above one of mundus's strongest generals.

Also, ironically for this debate, malphas only loses to someone who V himself admits his inferiority to, so she has no anti-feats or anything, infact her loss to nero makes the scaling all the more consistent

Yea no yours requires more assumption it's because you forgot about the stones she have around her which will get activated when you're nearby and even let's say that his familiars use melee range attacks but then V is the one who needs to give the killing blow because it made clear again and again that nightmares can't kill anybody and he needs to get near her to do that so yea he can't fight her not because she more powerful but because her hax are pain in the ass(that also without taking into account that the familiars will also get effected from getting near her)

Also where it was stated that nightmare is one of mundus generals he only referred as a bio weapon

 

[Deadguy]

Overall I agree with tony and gilver

 

[Ibrahem]

Yea no yours requires more assumption it's because you forgot about the stones she have around her which will get activated when you're nearby and even let's say that his familiars use melee range attacks but then V is the one who needs to give the killing blow because it made clear again and again that nightmares can't kill anybody and he needs to get near her to do that so yea he can't fight her not because she more powerful but because her hax are pain in the ass(that also without taking into account that the familiars will also get effected from getting near her)

Also where it was stated that nightmare is one of mundus generals he only referred as a bio weapon

1) nightmare can kill demons in game unlike griffon and shadow.
even if he can't, all enemies get knocked down after taking damage from V's familiars, so if nightmare blasts her or something, V can easily land the finishing blow, and despite knowing this, V still doesn't want want the smoke.

2) don't see how the stones on her body are relevant, they did nothing to nero so they won't do anything to V. you're also assuming griffon knows what those are, which is a stretch. and as i explained, griffon fearing her because of power differences is alot more believable than him knowing every single detail regarding her abilities. because most demons have sensing capabilities (i believe it's noted in the physiology page)


3) by "general" i just mean someone or something that fights for mundus, don't look too deep into it

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

2) don't see how the stones on her body are relevant, they did nothing to nero so they won't do anything to V. you're also assuming griffon knows what those are, which is a stretch. and as i explained, griffon fearing her because of power differences is alot more believable than him knowing every single detail regarding her abilities. because most demons have sensing capabilities (i believe it's noted in the physiology page)

Cuz it's the same stones she uses for trap. In fact the entire arena Nero fights Malphas in filled with those.
Nero resists those haxxes... he is outright stated to be unaffected by the traps. While V and all his familiars were completely negged.

Clear cut case of Hax superiority not AP. Nightmare getting negged by Malphas is dead giveaway that his strength is useless. So there's no point in comparing their AP etc.

Malphas is just a haxlord.. or haxlady-ies.. not some raw power beast.

 

[Deadguy]

1) nightmare can kill demons in game unlike griffon and shadow.
even if he can't, all enemies get knocked down after taking damage from V's familiars, so if nightmare blasts her or something, V can easily land the finishing blow, and despite knowing this, V still doesn't want want the smoke.

When did nightmare kill demons by himself and even if he did (assuming once) it will be an outlier because of V statement and the intention of the games that they couldn't kill also her stones are passive so knocking her out isn't enough for the stones to stop working

2) don't see how the stones on her body are relevant, they did nothing to nero so they won't do anything to V. you're also assuming griffon knows what those are, which is a stretch. and as i explained, griffon fearing her because of power differences is alot more believable than him knowing every single detail regarding her abilities. because most demons have sensing capabilities (i believe it's noted in the physiology page)

The reason nero isn't effected is because he have resistance to it and was accepted in the sparda physiology and why griffon wouldn't know her? he knows malphs and how troubling she could be(because of her hax) and he is mundus oldest general so he have alot of knowledge about other demons which is shown in dmc5

3) by "general" i just mean someone or something that fights for mundus, don't look too deep into it

Okay

 

[Ibrahem]

Cuz it's the same stones she uses for trap. In fact the entire arena Nero fights Malphas in filled with those.
Nero resists those haxxes... he is outright stated to be unaffected by the traps. While V and all his familiars were completely negged.

Clear cut case of Hax superiority not AP. Nightmare getting negged by Malphas is dead giveaway that his strength is useless. So there's no point in comparing their AP etc.

Malphas is just a haxlord.. or haxlady-ies.. not some raw power beast.

again, why are we acting like griffon is some omniscient creature? how do we know for sure that he knows these details? i can concede to nero resisting the stones but even then, why didn't V blitz and one shot her from distance using nightmare? his lasers would surely blitz her if he was so much More powerful (cuz more power = more speed as we all know) at that point even if malphas only gets knocked out and not killed, why would the stones still work? no boss can activate any abilities once they're knocked out by V, why is malphas any different? theres alot of points that i feel being ignored based on "griffon knows everything" which is headcanon considering he only knows what vergil would know and we don't know if vergil knew everything about malphas.

When did nightmare kill demons by himself and even if he assuming once it will be an outlier because of V statement and the intention of the games that they couldn't kill

he does in game, V doesn't need to finish off nightmare's targets. nightmare can just kill them

her stones are passive so knocking her out isn't enough

no evidence of such thing unfortunately. infact we have evidence to support otherwise, as i explained all bosses that get knocked out by V can't do anything

griffon wouldn't know them he knows malphs that on how troubling she could be as he is mundus oldest general so he have alot of knowledge which is shown in dmc5

dmc5 griffon doesn't have the knowledge or the memories of dmc1 griffon..... he's literally vergil's discarded memory, he wouldn't know stuff that vergil doesn't... so you're assuming vergil has all of dmc1 griffon's memories and knowledge which....... no

 

[Deadguy]

he does in game, V doesn't need to finish off nightmare's targets. nightmare can just kill them

Then show me scans of him CONSISTENTLY killing his enemies (atleast four to five scans of it)

no evidence of such thing unfortunately. infact we have evidence to support otherwise, as i explained all bosses that get knocked out by V can't do anything

Then make a thread because it was accepted that the stones on her body works the same way and one of the reasons for the resistance on the physiology page

dmc5 griffon doesn't have the knowledge or the memories of dmc1 griffon..... he's literally vergil's discarded memory, he wouldn't know stuff that vergil doesn't... so you're assuming vergil has all of griffon's memories and knowledge which....... no

Even if he was he knows them pretty well since he knows who and what nidhogg is and even know who is malphs so even if it was limited to vergil memories malphs isn't out of his range of memories and knowledge

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

again, why are we acting like griffon is some omniscient creature? ......snip.......... he only knows what vergil would know and we don't know if vergil knew everything about malphas.

You are forgetting that V is incapable of even sustaining even his normal summons. Griffon can't even fly properly at that point. V is about crumble to dust. The guy clearly doesn't have power to output anymore. It's doubtful he is even capable of summoning Nightmare. Even if by some miracle he does... whose to say it will be at full power?? Griffon can't even fly properly let alone handle V's weight for a lift off. His normal summons can't operate at full power. And you expect Nightmare to just come out and nuke Malphas with a Galick Gun?

dmc5 griffon doesn't have the knowledge or the memories of dmc1 griffon..... he's literally vergil's discarded memory, he wouldn't know stuff that vergil doesn't... so you're assuming vergil has all of griffon's memories and knowledge which....... no

It's clearly not treated that way. VoV manga shows an amnesiac V getting all his memories back piece by piece as his gather his summon and forms contracts.
V doesn't need to rely on his summons for something he already knows.
It's quite clear the plot is breaking logic by having Griffon treated as knowledgeable member seperate from V/Vergil's memories.

And even if we go with your logic... whose to say Vergil doesn't have deep knowledge about DW politics and it's infamous inhabitants? He already had a ton of that before 3. And as Mundus' best general Nelo Angelo.. even though mindwashed.. isn't stupid. He quite clearly knows of a lot of stuff he learned as General other than the tortures given by Mundus.

 

[Ibrahem]

You are forgetting that V is incapable of even sustaining even his normal summons. Griffon can't even fly properly at that point. V is about crumble to dust. The guy clearly doesn't have power to output anymore. It's doubtful he is even capable of summoning Nightmare. Even if by some miracle he does... whose to say it will be at full power?? Griffon can't even fly properly let alone handle V's weight for a lift off. His normal summons can't operate at full power. And you expect Nightmare to just come out and nuke Malphas with a Galick Gun?

That's in mission 14, the statement mister linked is during mission 5,V was not weak there and went on to casually kill geryon afterwards

clearly not treated that way. VoV manga shows an amnesiac V getting all his memories back piece by piece as his gather his summon and forms contracts.

makes 0 sense for it not to be treated that way. how did vergil summon dmc1 griffon's memories out of nowhere?

V doesn't need to rely on his summons for something he already knows.
It's quite clear the plot is breaking logic by having Griffon treated as knowledgeable member seperate from V/Vergil's memories

vergil's memories are separated between them, that's why V knows stuff that urizen doesn't, that's why griffon knows stuff that V doesn't. they don't share the same memories

And even if we go with your logic... whose to say Vergil doesn't have deep knowledge about DW politics and it's infamous inhabitants? He already had a ton of that before 3. And as Mundus' best general Nelo Angelo.. even though mindwashed.. isn't stupid. He quite clearly knows of a lot of stuff he learned as General other than the tortures given by Mundus.

and whose to say he does? now we're just stuck in a loop of "who's to say this and who's to say that" let's leave our assumptions out of this and think of the most logical and believable interpretation of the statement. what makes more sense, griffon knowing every single detail regarding malphas's powers, or him knowing that's she's simply powerful? most demons have sensing capabilities, they (includin griffon) can take a look at her and know she's powerful but can they know all of her abilities just by taking a look? i don't think so

 

[Ibrahem]

Then show me scans of him CONSISTENTLY killing his enemies (atleast four to five scans of it)

its a gameplay thing also not important to my argument as i already stated

Then make a thread because it was accepted that the stones on her body works the same way and one of the reasons for the resistance on the physiology

what was accepted has nothing to do with my argument tho. and why are the other stones passive? they activated when V was nearby. and once again, you can not prove that they would work when malphas is knocked down. no boss does such a thing not even urizen, so why is malphas different?

Even if he was he knows them pretty well since he knows who and what nidhogg is and even know who is malphs so even if it was limited to vergil memories malphs isn't out of his range of memories and knowledge

knowing someone doesn't mean you know everything they can do, do you know how many characters in the series know or have heard of sparda's name? there's no way all of them know exactly how sparda's abilities work. your point is not enough to null the argument

 

[Deadguy]

its a gameplay thing also not important to my argument as i already stated

That even makes the argument worse but whatever I guess

what was accepted has nothing to do with my argument tho. and why are the other stones passive? they activated when V was nearby. and once again, you can not prove that they would work when malphas is knocked down. no boss does such a thing not even urizen, so why is malphas different?

Not only you are using bloody palace(which is completely non canon to the story and scaling) but you are assuming that just because him knocking out urizen(who have no passive haxs that can effect V) so he can knock out malphs yea no it doesn't mush well like this and the burden of proof is on you since you have to proof that knocking her out will stop her stones from working

knowing someone doesn't mean you know everything they can do, do you know how many characters in the series know or have heard of sparda's name? there's no way all of them know exactly how sparda's abilities work. your point is not enough to null the argument

Yes I know but not everyone is the same case especially if they have great knowledge about the demons and their realm and vergil is very knowledgeable on them or how did he knew about nidhogg or the qilopthot tree or his knowledge on nightmare and who created him basically he knows alot so I don't see why malphs will be an exception

 

[Ibrahem]

That even makes the argument worse but whatever I guess

again, im willing to accept nightmare not being able to kill demons. so let's drop this point

you are using bloody palace(which is completely non canon to the story and scaling) but you are assuming that just because him knocking out urizen(who have no passive haxs that can effect V) so he can knock out malphs yea no it doesn't mush well like this and the burden of proof is on you since you have to proof that knocking her out will stop her stones from working

every enemy that V fought in the canon story gets knocked out the exact same way in bloody palace. so i have no reason to believe that the way the other bosses get knocked down is inaccurate to the lore or something. of course those fights aren't canon and there's no world where V can knock down urizen but in a hypothetical scenario where he can, it would be the same as what we see in bloody palace.

urizen was just an example that i don't even need to my argument, because you still can't prove that malphas is any different from other bosses who can't do anything once knocked out.

and even if they still work once knocked out, your counter argument at that point becomes "griffon knows that nightmare can blitz and one shot malphas but V can't finish her off due to the stones, therefore she's too much for us to handle" which is absolutely ridiculous. griffon is clearly afraid for their lives, he doesn't say anything about killing malphas he doesn't wanna fight her at all. that's not something you say about a demon you can easily blitz and knock down with nightmare from distance away.

I know but not everyone is the same case especially if they have great knowledge about the demons and their realm and vergil is very knowledgeable on them or how did he knew about nidhogg or the qilopthot tree or his knowledge on nightmare and who created him basically he knows alot so I don't see why malphs will be an exception

same thing i said to Gilver, you cannot prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt. you're simply assuming, which... if you're going to assume stuff to come to a believable conclusion, you can't go with an interpretation that requires alot of headcanon when there's another interpretation that requires less headcanon. your assumption is that vergil at some point learned everything about malphas, everything about those stones, and then all of that knowledge ended up with griffon after vergil separates himself (because we know the memories and knowledge were separated between them, that's why griffon can tell V stuff he doesn't know) so how do you know that the knowledge regarding the stones didn't end up with urizen? or phantom? you're assuming alot of things. meanwhile im just saying that griffon either sensed malphas and realised she's too much for them or that he was told that by some other demon who sensed malphas.