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Just do what most users do and be coy and put a time-stop char against him for a free wiki win.
Totally no bias in those matches.
Totally no bias in those matches.
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Minor Kakine revisions and possible upgrades for Mikoto and Aleister's phone.
- Thread starter Scrlk666777
- Start date
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- #42
You mean a win for the time stop user because anyone who has time stop has an instant win against Accel?
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Yeah. Those fights are pointless to make because it's instant wins. They may as well just be closed and labeled as stomps.
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- #44
You know I might just pick a random battle, even if it might be a stomp either way. Or maybe I should go with another level 5 instead.
Sorry I shouldn't really go off topic but going back to the OP, does anyone disagree with anything in the OP and is there anything that I might have missed in regards of Kakine?
Sorry I shouldn't really go off topic but going back to the OP, does anyone disagree with anything in the OP and is there anything that I might have missed in regards of Kakine?
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I'm not sure if I should call it Regenerationn negation since nothing stops them from regenerating the wound that is left if he absorbs it honestly, that should just fall under durability negation to begin with. Aside from that, that's really it.
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Yeah, I'm against putting that really since basically nearly everyone has pointed out, it's not really Regenerationn negation. So I might actually delete that one from the OP.
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I know this is off topic and gonna be a long one, but just to be clear, I'm not the only one that believes certain law/conceptual hax won't null an espers ability to use them, right? Like, if we take the literal description:
Personal Reality (Þç¬ÕêåÒüáÒüæÒü«þÅ¥Õ«ƒ
ÒâæÒâ╝Òé¢ÒâèÒâ½Òâ¬ÒéóÒâ¬ÒâåÒéú' Jibun dake no Genjitsu (P─üsonaru Riariti)?, lit. "Reality of Oneself") is the term used to refer to the reality created by students who undergo the Power Curriculum Program, and replace normal reality. As the name states, it is a type of reality that is unique for each individual, and is the very foundation of an esper's power, specifically, it is the source from which all esper powers and phenomena are brought into the real world
Personal Realities, even when nulled by Imagine Breaker, never fully go away, they simply cannot enduce the phenomena as it's being power nulled and are not natural to the world, and they've been described as enforcing change onto the world rather than using the world to enforce change. They create their own natural phenomena and influence that on the world, though they're able to use that phenomena to influence the worlds as well.
"replace normal reality". So it's, in layman terms, their own separate reality away from the worlds. So if someone were to make a law that, says 'Magnesism cannot be controlled' and enforce that, Mikoto would not be affected by it directly as it'd only be applied to the world itself whereas Mikoto could simply just believe it'd continue to work sub-consciously. It's a form of Law hax in of itself, as a Demon in SS3 Railgun even says that Esper Powers are based off Thelema, which is about 'Laws' albiet not exactly 100% the ficitional term of laws.
Actually, to even tie this into Accel's Law hax feat, Holistic Espers use the world itself to affect the micro. The reason I can see Accelerator having been able to 'paint' the Clonoth with a hierachy of laws is that he was enducing his own laws from his personal reality onto the world, and then through the Holistic Method, he embdded it in the world itself so now his laws were the worlds laws.
This is getting confusing, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is Espers should have limited Law hax resistance. If the law hax is enough to overrite concepts like Personal Realities/a person's existence then that's different, but something that overwrites rules and phenomona can go ignored. Am I the only one who sees the logic in this, given how Personal Realities have been described in the series? We know that scientifically it's explained by SChrodinger's Cat which is about Probability/Possibility manipulation, which, maybe Espers /could/ have resistance to that too, since it's about making the possibility of say, throwing fire 100% due to the sub-conscious observing it that way constantly. Espers also only calculate their abilities scientifically because Aleister set them up that way too, But I think it's largely more deeped in Law due to the fundamental core of it being Thelema which has even been admitted to in Railgun SS3. to quote:
"I am not some bizarre Academy City technology, nor am I one of your garbage esper powers that simply rewrite the concepts of Thelema using arbitrary new terminology like Personal Reality…"
I want to make sure I have good grounds for if I make a CRT for it someday. Reading into it more and more, I can defintely see limited possibility/law hax resistance being a thing.
Personal Reality (Þç¬ÕêåÒüáÒüæÒü«þÅ¥Õ«ƒ
ÒâæÒâ╝Òé¢ÒâèÒâ½Òâ¬ÒéóÒâ¬ÒâåÒéú' Jibun dake no Genjitsu (P─üsonaru Riariti)?, lit. "Reality of Oneself") is the term used to refer to the reality created by students who undergo the Power Curriculum Program, and replace normal reality. As the name states, it is a type of reality that is unique for each individual, and is the very foundation of an esper's power, specifically, it is the source from which all esper powers and phenomena are brought into the real world
Personal Realities, even when nulled by Imagine Breaker, never fully go away, they simply cannot enduce the phenomena as it's being power nulled and are not natural to the world, and they've been described as enforcing change onto the world rather than using the world to enforce change. They create their own natural phenomena and influence that on the world, though they're able to use that phenomena to influence the worlds as well.
"replace normal reality". So it's, in layman terms, their own separate reality away from the worlds. So if someone were to make a law that, says 'Magnesism cannot be controlled' and enforce that, Mikoto would not be affected by it directly as it'd only be applied to the world itself whereas Mikoto could simply just believe it'd continue to work sub-consciously. It's a form of Law hax in of itself, as a Demon in SS3 Railgun even says that Esper Powers are based off Thelema, which is about 'Laws' albiet not exactly 100% the ficitional term of laws.
Actually, to even tie this into Accel's Law hax feat, Holistic Espers use the world itself to affect the micro. The reason I can see Accelerator having been able to 'paint' the Clonoth with a hierachy of laws is that he was enducing his own laws from his personal reality onto the world, and then through the Holistic Method, he embdded it in the world itself so now his laws were the worlds laws.
This is getting confusing, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is Espers should have limited Law hax resistance. If the law hax is enough to overrite concepts like Personal Realities/a person's existence then that's different, but something that overwrites rules and phenomona can go ignored. Am I the only one who sees the logic in this, given how Personal Realities have been described in the series? We know that scientifically it's explained by SChrodinger's Cat which is about Probability/Possibility manipulation, which, maybe Espers /could/ have resistance to that too, since it's about making the possibility of say, throwing fire 100% due to the sub-conscious observing it that way constantly. Espers also only calculate their abilities scientifically because Aleister set them up that way too, But I think it's largely more deeped in Law due to the fundamental core of it being Thelema which has even been admitted to in Railgun SS3. to quote:
"I am not some bizarre Academy City technology, nor am I one of your garbage esper powers that simply rewrite the concepts of Thelema using arbitrary new terminology like Personal Reality…"
I want to make sure I have good grounds for if I make a CRT for it someday. Reading into it more and more, I can defintely see limited possibility/law hax resistance being a thing.
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@Accelerate420
This all make senses to me. I mean you would probably still get some who are either against this or who are unsure but I think everything you said makes perfect sense and I would do the CRT anyway.
This all make senses to me. I mean you would probably still get some who are either against this or who are unsure but I think everything you said makes perfect sense and I would do the CRT anyway.
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-Small Size -> No, he usually isn't that small. Limited Size Manipulation -> Yes (Size Reduction).
-Likely Higher -> Is Ok
-Intelligence -> I'm not sure if Mugino & Misaka should even be Extraordinary Genius either. Looking at the definition of that on the intelligence page this requires knowledge in many fields of science and surpassing the smartest humans on earth by far. I don't think Mugino has the feats for that. Misaka and Kakine might have them, Kakine upgrading AC tech in particular being quite impressive.
-Matter Manipulation -> For creating and controlling Dark Matter, I guess? That's fine but should be limited Matter Manip IMO.
-Durability Negation -> Based on what?
-Aleister's phone is already likely higher for possibly posing a threat to Elizard. That being said, I wouldn't use that feat to upgrade it. The thing is that an electron beam is basically an extremly sharp knife. The point of the sharpness is to cut things without much effort. Since it's that extremly sharp it would not need that much power to cut a nuclear shelter.
Misaka's railgun thing was talked about before. We decided not to use it, but admittedly I don't quite remember why. I think that it was one of those weird volume 1 statements never backed up later might have been part of it. Guess I will check if I can find the last debate about that.
-Likely Higher -> Is Ok
-Intelligence -> I'm not sure if Mugino & Misaka should even be Extraordinary Genius either. Looking at the definition of that on the intelligence page this requires knowledge in many fields of science and surpassing the smartest humans on earth by far. I don't think Mugino has the feats for that. Misaka and Kakine might have them, Kakine upgrading AC tech in particular being quite impressive.
-Matter Manipulation -> For creating and controlling Dark Matter, I guess? That's fine but should be limited Matter Manip IMO.
-Durability Negation -> Based on what?
-Aleister's phone is already likely higher for possibly posing a threat to Elizard. That being said, I wouldn't use that feat to upgrade it. The thing is that an electron beam is basically an extremly sharp knife. The point of the sharpness is to cut things without much effort. Since it's that extremly sharp it would not need that much power to cut a nuclear shelter.
Misaka's railgun thing was talked about before. We decided not to use it, but admittedly I don't quite remember why. I think that it was one of those weird volume 1 statements never backed up later might have been part of it. Guess I will check if I can find the last debate about that.
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In fairness, Vol 1 was written as a one off some some feats and statements from it should be regarded with salt. I remember there being a statement of her lightning being light speed but that might be translation inconsistences between Yen and the old translators.DontTalkDT said:
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@DontTalkDT
Okay changed the OP to Limited Size Manipulation and limited Matter Manipulation.
I will delate the AP possible upgrades then becasue I wasn't too sure on Mikoto anyway since I've only seen others point the quote out but wasn't too sure where the quote was actually said. If it was Vol 1 then it's likely this was either forgotten by Kamachi or it was retconned later. And with the electron beam I was unsure as well since bisecting is just cutting something in two. I suppose this is also why Misaka's LPR doesn't scale to Accelerator's attempt on the windowless building or the Nerfed Magic Gods, when they were High 6-A, anyway because it's more a piercing effect than outright destruction.
On the intelligence, I think we should downgrade Mugino and Mikoto, the former espeically has no feats of being an extraordinary genius and I think while Mikoto is smart, she's only really a genius in her field of expertise which is electromagetism and electrons etc. If we're comparing the difference between Mikoto and Accelerator, for example, the two are like night and day where the latter has much more knowledge in various fields, which now includes magic. Kakine I suppose you could argue both ways to upgrade or to keep him at genius, at least for now anyway.
Okay changed the OP to Limited Size Manipulation and limited Matter Manipulation.
I will delate the AP possible upgrades then becasue I wasn't too sure on Mikoto anyway since I've only seen others point the quote out but wasn't too sure where the quote was actually said. If it was Vol 1 then it's likely this was either forgotten by Kamachi or it was retconned later. And with the electron beam I was unsure as well since bisecting is just cutting something in two. I suppose this is also why Misaka's LPR doesn't scale to Accelerator's attempt on the windowless building or the Nerfed Magic Gods, when they were High 6-A, anyway because it's more a piercing effect than outright destruction.
On the intelligence, I think we should downgrade Mugino and Mikoto, the former espeically has no feats of being an extraordinary genius and I think while Mikoto is smart, she's only really a genius in her field of expertise which is electromagetism and electrons etc. If we're comparing the difference between Mikoto and Accelerator, for example, the two are like night and day where the latter has much more knowledge in various fields, which now includes magic. Kakine I suppose you could argue both ways to upgrade or to keep him at genius, at least for now anyway.
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Kakine is definitely at least at the top of Genius. He should be leaps and bounds above someone like Mikoto and Shizuri so I would put him extrodinary.Scrlk666777 said:
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On durability negation. I think it comes from this http://is2.4chan.org/a/1566937981099.jpg.
I'm not too sure myself what happened here and if this was durability negation of not, really
I'm not too sure myself what happened here and if this was durability negation of not, really
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It was explained that it was a very hi-tech suit and it withstood a blow from Kakine moments before. When he activated his abiltiy it basically disintegrated it (the arm) and melted it (the other arm) without effort. Not sure if that's cause for durability negation but clearly it's Matter manipulation at work so I wouldn't say it's 'limited' matter manipulation when he can make Dark Matter take on whatever properties of matter he wants, and it seems he can influence that onto others. That might be why he's able to create explosions. Reactions of matter/atoms in the air from his ability, perhaps?
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I would say upgrade Kakine and downgrade Mikoto and Mugino on their intelligence scale. The only question about Kakine is how knowledgeable he is in other fields of science. I mean I think it was pointed out in the first chapter of his manga that Kakine's ability is stronger with data, so it's not surprising that he would be good with technology etc.
In a fact both Kakine and Accelerator abilities work in similar ways in that regard. Kakine becomes more powerful with data and Accelerator becomes more powerful with Knowledge and understanding.
In a fact both Kakine and Accelerator abilities work in similar ways in that regard. Kakine becomes more powerful with data and Accelerator becomes more powerful with Knowledge and understanding.
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Mikoto I can believe being where she is but certainly Kakine would be higher in general.
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I think Mikoto is more suited to genius honestly.
Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, generally in one area of varying depth, often possessed by fictional scientists and strategists. This level of intelligence is the level of actualgeniuses and famous intellectuals in the real world and, in lieu of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters treated as if they have exceptional or superhuman intelligence.
Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over many fields of science and who vastly surpass the intellects of the smartest humans on Earth. At this level, many are capable of creating futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, and potentially even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, or outperforming supercomputers. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear.
These are the detailed versions of both and I do think Mikoto fits more in the genius catergory as while she's extremely knowledegable when it comes to her ability and the things releating to her ability, she doesn't have an extensive knowledge of other other fields and she doesn't surpass the smartest people in toaru either. The likes of Accelerator, Aleister and the Kihara;s alone are way more knowledegable and smarter than she is.
I'm thinking that Mugino should be more Gifted though?
Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, generally in one area of varying depth, often possessed by fictional scientists and strategists. This level of intelligence is the level of actualgeniuses and famous intellectuals in the real world and, in lieu of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters treated as if they have exceptional or superhuman intelligence.
Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over many fields of science and who vastly surpass the intellects of the smartest humans on Earth. At this level, many are capable of creating futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, and potentially even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations, or outperforming supercomputers. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear.
These are the detailed versions of both and I do think Mikoto fits more in the genius catergory as while she's extremely knowledegable when it comes to her ability and the things releating to her ability, she doesn't have an extensive knowledge of other other fields and she doesn't surpass the smartest people in toaru either. The likes of Accelerator, Aleister and the Kihara;s alone are way more knowledegable and smarter than she is.
I'm thinking that Mugino should be more Gifted though?
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I think we should put Mikoto to Genius then, Kakine should be Extraordinary for the stuff he pulled alone in OT15 vs Accelerator. He literally walked up to the guy and immediately analyzed his filter.
Even if the fight itself was a joke.
Even if the fight itself was a joke.
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After, reading the first chapter of the DM manga, I'm not quite sure that was actually the case and iirc, it was never actually implied to be the case either. It's more likely that Kakine figured it out long before he even fought Accelerator but couldn't put his theory into practise until he faced Accelerator. I mean Kakine would have gained as much data on Accelerator as he possibly could and this guy has been after Accel for a while, long before the events of OT 15. So he would have studied Accel and his powers immensely.
Still even if he figured out Accel's reflection and his filter, on the spot or beforehand is a pretty great feat regardless. I can't exactly remember but I think Kakine was the first one to figure it out, I don't think even Amata knew of this nor it seemed Accelerator, but I might have got the latter wrong.
I'm okay for upgrading Kakine though.
Still even if he figured out Accel's reflection and his filter, on the spot or beforehand is a pretty great feat regardless. I can't exactly remember but I think Kakine was the first one to figure it out, I don't think even Amata knew of this nor it seemed Accelerator, but I might have got the latter wrong.
I'm okay for upgrading Kakine though.
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Amata knew it but I don't think they had the means to do it, so he just used the backdoor method really.
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Yeah, thinking about it, I doubt Amata didn't know of it, after all he did develop Accelerator's powers.
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kekinay did it became true numba # and got his own manga (lol)DontTalkDT said:
here: https://s8.mkklcdnv8.com/************/f1/fl920349/chapter_1/36.jpg
https://s8.mkklcdnv8.com/************/f1/fl920349/chapter_1/38.jpg
https://s8.mkklcdnv8.com/************/f1/fl920349/chapter_1/39.jpg
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@Malox We already know Kakine is the #2, this isn't anything new. So I don't know why you brought this rank up for.
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I've added the "Likely higher" on both of his tiers but everything else no, not yet.
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Robbie Rotten? Really?
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I've never been on 4chan, mostly because I've always heard bad stuff about it. So no, I don't know the Kekinay anon. So there's actually a Kakine meme?!
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I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing but I'll just say it's a good thing.
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By the way, do you think we can start adding the things to Kakine in the OP?
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Added some of the changes that has been agreed upon.
I'm not sure where everyone stands on Kakine's and even Mugino's and Mikoto's genius level. My opinion is we can leave or upgrade Kakine.
But I think we should downgrade Mugino and Mikoto to Genius, maybe even to Gifted for Mugino.
I'm not sure where everyone stands on Kakine's and even Mugino's and Mikoto's genius level. My opinion is we can leave or upgrade Kakine.
But I think we should downgrade Mugino and Mikoto to Genius, maybe even to Gifted for Mugino.
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I would upgrade kakines intelligence. seeing as he understands the basic building blocks of the world, he seems quite knowledgable about many different aspects of energies and how they work. probably because his darkmatter works differently so he wants to understand what differences it causes
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Okay I will upgrade.
What do you think about downgrading Mikoto's intelligence to Genius and Mugino's to Genius or even gifted.
Mikoto fits more genius as she doesn't quite fit the critea for Extraordinary Genius.
What do you think about downgrading Mikoto's intelligence to Genius and Mugino's to Genius or even gifted.
Mikoto fits more genius as she doesn't quite fit the critea for Extraordinary Genius.
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Okay, I've upgraded Kakine's genius level and downgraded Mikoto and Mugino to genius. I think we can leave Misaki at Extraordinary Genius.
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I undid the following edit:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Kakine_Teitoku&diff=5285276&oldid=5284188
As I mentioned there, you cannot only update the tier section. You need to update other statistics as well, and insert clarifications for why he is likely far higher.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Kakine_Teitoku&diff=5285276&oldid=5284188
As I mentioned there, you cannot only update the tier section. You need to update other statistics as well, and insert clarifications for why he is likely far higher.
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Would that be adding it to the Attack Potency section as well? I know I keep forgetting to do that with the Kakine edits.
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