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Minor Gran Rey Cero Upgrade

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I want to see what kind of new, ridiculous results you get with Continent level base Grimmjow's Gran Rey Cero.
 
Damage3245 said:
I want to see what kind of new, ridiculous results you get with Continent level base Grimmjow's Gran Rey Cero.
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Damage come the **** on bro.

Have you been reading my premises.

My original premise: Characters who scale to or above Res Ulq have their GRCs vape LN. Characters who scale below Res Ulq pulverize LN.

I've said over and over and over and over and over again that the onyl characters with high evidence that they could vape LN with GRC are those who are equal to or stronger than Res Ulq.
 
While your suggestion was rejected and they decided to go with pulverization, I do admit that it makes your scaling chain more consistent if vape is used for Ulquiorra, for one, there would actually be a feat that's within the range of a 500x increase.
 
That's so abritrary. I've already been over how Ulquiorra's statement does not differentiate between different types of Gran Rey Cero. There is no room for "Only certain characters are capable of destroying Las Noches by blasting it into rubble, and only certain characters are capable of destroying Las Noches by blasting it into steam."

That's forcing headcanon into a statement that implies nothing of the sort.
 
Damage3245 said:
Hence why I don't think we should be using any calc for Gran Rey Cero. The original statement from Ulquiorra is vague nonsense that apparently can mean anything from violently fragmenting Las Noches to vaporizing it from Arc's calc.
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Arc included every form of destruction with vape being by far the most reliable and logical but both you and Mitch chose pulverisation. You could have picked frag or v frag but you didn’t. Yet now that the numbers are getting a bit big, you disagree with it? That’s incredulity. You disagree with the end result despite having agreed with the journey there.
Damage3245 said:
If it can mean anything, and it's up to interpretation, how is this a reliable basis of the massive scaling chain affecting every single Arrancar Arc character?
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This is a completely rat attempt to dismiss the GRC calc, it can’t mean anything and it really is not up to interpretation. They could have said they would fragment LN with GRC and we would still have the issue of people doing stuff that should have destroyed LN but not doing so. You keep trying to circle back to the numbers you chose from the options provided being too high as if it is the cause of all the problems when it isn’t. This isn’t a problem with the method of destruction but that a mid tier Espada used GRC and caused everything else from this point on in the story to scale to it.
 
Damage3245 said:
That's so abritrary. I've already been over how Ulquiorra's statement does not differentiate between different types of Gran Rey Cero. There is no room for "Only certain characters are capable of destroying Las Noches by blasting it into rubble, and only certain characters are capable of destroying Las Noches by blasting it into steam."

That's forcing headcanon into a statement that implies nothing of the sort.
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It's the exact opposite.

Just because characters can all destroy something does not mean can all output the same level of power. Especially when they are all of different power levels to begin with.

Let's say you can vaporize the planet but I can only cut it in half, someone could say "Arc and Damage can destroy the planet", but that doesn't make us equal in power. You need context to determine what "destroy the planet" would mean for me vs you.

Same case with the Espada, they can all destroy LN with a GRC, but how do they do it? Well Res Ulquiorra vaporized a massive portion of LN with a weaker Cero, so we know that for Espada of power on par with or stronger than Res Ulq their GRCs very likely would vaporize LN. For the weaker Espada they have no such evidence so, for them it's more along the lines of evidence for violent frag and pulv.

The Espada aren't all equal in power, thus nothing suggests their GRCs would all have to be equal in power.
 
Arc included every form of destruction with vape being by far the most reliable and logical but both you and Mitch chose pulverisation. You could have picked frag or v frag but you didn’t. Yet now that the numbers are getting a bit big, you disagree with it? That’s incredulity. You disagree with the end result despite having agreed with the journey there.
Click to expand...

I only agreed with pulverization because other staff members were agreeing with pulverization. If it was up to me alone, the feat would be too vague to use which is what I believe.

Same case with the Espada, they can all destroy LN with a GRC, but how do they do it? Well Res Ulquiorra vaporized a massive portion of LN with a weaker Cero, so we know that for Espada of power on par with or stronger than Res Ulq their GRCs very likely would vaporize LN.
Click to expand...

Would you give them a "likely" rating for their Gran Rey Cero's?
 
Damage3245 said:
Would you give them a "likely" rating for their Gran Rey Cero's?
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting for Res Ulq and stronger Espada (basically the Res forms of Espada 3, 2, 1, and 0) we rate their GRCs as "higher, likely Continent level with Gran Rey Cero (Vaporized a large portion of Las Noches with a weaker Cero, thus it is very likely he could vaporize all of Las Noches with his ultimate Cero)"

And then do pulv for the weaker Espada?

Honestly, I'm fine for giving people like Grimmjow: "[base], at least [10x base], likely [pulv with GRC] (GRC > CO = 10x amp, it can destroy LN)"

Because if so yes, I am very much for that.
 
Damage3245 said:
I only agreed with pulverization because other staff members were agreeing with pulverization. If it was up to me alone, the feat would be too vague to use which is what I believe.
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If you don’t agree with it, don’t agree with it? Just because you cast a vote doesn’t mean it has to go with what the majority pick when what you actually believe won’t win. If you didn’t have an opinion on the topic at hand and we’re neutral about it, that’s a different case but you clearly do have one.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
If you don’t agree with it, don’t agree with it? Just because you cast a vote doesn’t mean it has to go with what the majority pick when what you actually believe won’t win. If you didn’t have an opinion on the topic at hand and we’re neutral about it, that’s a different case but you clearly do have one.
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VSBW is also about compromise to an extent. I've been trying to compromise more on here but it's getting harder with some of the proposals I see.
 
Damage3245 said:
VSBW is also about compromise to an extent. I've been trying to compromise on here but it's getting harder with some of the proposals I see.
Click to expand...
How does this look:

Resurreccion Ulquiorra and stronger: "[5x Base AP], [10x Res AP] with CO, higher, likely 6-A with GRC"

Everyone else and every weaker form: "[Base AP], at least [10x Base AP], likely 6-B with GRC" and for the Res forms "[Res AP], [10x Res AP] with CO, higher, likely 6-B with GRC (or just higher if they scale above 6-B already)"
 
Fair enough. Obviously disagreements will happen no matter what but the compromises should be founded in some form of logic and fact that we can observe/take from the media in question. For example, I completely disagree with using pulverisation for any of the Espada’s GRC but agreed to it because it was the next best thing to vape that I do believe in. With Arc’s proposal for only Ulq and up getting vape, I would rather slap a x10 on the guys weaker than Ulq or using frag/v frag of LN’s mass than give the pulverisation tho cuz Ceros never do this from what I remember.
 
Here is what a compromise being using an "at least 10x" GRC AP amp by virture of GRC being a more potent amp than CO and use of my calc (pulv for Espada < Res Ulq, vape for Espada >= Res Ulq) would look like.

Grimmjow
Tier: High 6-C, at least Low 6-B, likely 6-B with Gran Rey Cero | At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B, higher, likely 6-B+ with Cero Oscuras, higher with Gran Rey Cero and Desgarron
Keys: Base | Resurreccion

Ulquiorra
Tier: At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B, higher, likely 6-B+ with Gran Rey Cero | At least Low 6-B+, likely 6-B, at least 6-B+, likely High 6-B with Cero Oscuras, higher, likely 6-A with Gran Rey Cero | At least 6-B+, likely High 6-B, at least High 6-B+, likely 6-A+ with Cero Oscuras, higher with Gran Rey Cero and Lanza del Relampago
Keys: Base | Resurreccion | Segunda Etapa

The values are:
  • High 6-C = 113.25 Gigatons (Grimmjow's base)
  • at least Low 6-B, likely 6-B = 1.13 Teratons, likely 7 Teratons (Grimmjow's base GRC being at least 10x regular Cero, likely pulv calc, also Grimmjow's Res and Ulq's base physicals)
  • higher, likely 6-B+ = 11.33 Teratons, likely 70 Teratons (Grimmjow's Res and Ulq's base GRC being at least 10x regular Cero)
  • at least Low 6-B+, likely 6-B = 5.66 Teratons, likely 35 Teratons (Ulq's Res being 5x his base)
  • at least 6-B+, likely High 6-B = 56.63 Teratons, likely 350 Teratons (Res Ulq's CO being a 10x amp to normal Cero, also SE Ulq's physicals)
  • higher, likely 6-A = GRC > CO, likely 836.5 Teratons (Res Ulq's GRC being above his CO, likely vape calc)
  • at least High 6-B+, likely 6-A+ = 566.3 Teratons, likely 3.5 Petatons (SE Ulq's CO = 10x Cero)
  • SE Ulq's GRC and Lanza are merely higher than his CO.

Things worth mentioning:
  • The values using GRC as a 10x amp are very close to the respective calc for GRC, only slightly lower, but technically GRC would be above a 10x amp as it is a greater amp than CO, so I'd say it's rather self-consistent.
  • Second thing worth mentioning, regarding the "GRC statement must be the same for everyone", if you look at the scaling (ignoring the values) we have base Ulq's GRC > base Ulq >~ Post-Visored Training Hollow Ichigo ~ Res Grimmjow >~ base Grimmjow's GRC, aka base Ulq's GRC >>> base Grimmjow's GRC via scaling. This just negging the whole "GRC must be the same for everyone" argument, because that is inherently false via this obvious scaling chain.

Personally, I feel like the lowballed 10x GRC multiplier justifies full use of my pulv calc for weaker than Res Ulq Espada and my vape calc for stronger or equal to Res Ulq Espada, being that GRC is inherently a greater than 10x amp, but I'm more than fine with going "at least 10x, likely my calc"
 
There’s so many likely’s in those proposed tiers it’s not even funny
You’re legit making everything more confusing for anyone who reads the profiles
 
SilentBob34 said:
There’s so many likely’s in those proposed tiers it’s not even funny
You’re legit making everything more confusing for anyone who reads the profiles
Click to expand...
Arc7Kuroi said:
Personally, I feel like the lowballed 10x GRC multiplier justifies full use of my pulv calc for weaker than Res Ulq Espada and my vape calc for stronger or equal to Res Ulq Espada, being that GRC is inherently a greater than 10x amp, but I'm more than fine with going "at least 10x, likely my calc"
Click to expand...
You speak as if I haven't been pushing the use of the calc the entire thread...

If I had it my way we'd just use pulv for characters who scale below Res Ulq and vape for those who scale to or above Res Ulq, but if "at least 10x (superior amp to CO), likely my calc" is a satisfactory compromise then so be it, I'm not one to complain.
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
You speak as if I haven't been pushing the use of the calc the entire thread...

If I had it my way we'd just use pulv for characters who scale below Res Ulq and vape for those who scale to or above Res Ulq, but if "at least 10x (superior amp to CO), likely my calc" is a satisfactory compromise then so be it, I'm not one to complain.
Click to expand...
Im fine with the scaling you proposed earlier, feels like the most stable while the most recent one is just too many likely’s in there
 
For the characters lower than released Ulquiorra, I think that the "at least 10x regular Cero" by itself is the best usage. Mixing up pulverization and vaporization for different characters for a single statement is still something I'm not comfortable with, and I'm not aware of any precedent for it on the wiki.

I'm more neutral regarding the characters as strong or stronger than released Ulquiorra and will have to do some rereading of the arc for a bit.
 
Damage3245 said:
For the characters lower than released Ulquiorra, I think that the "at least 10x regular Cero" by itself is the best usage. Mixing up pulverization and vaporization for different characters for a single statement is still something I'm not comfortable with, and I'm not aware of any precedent for it on the wiki.

I'm more neutral regarding the characters as strong or stronger than released Ulquiorra and will have to do some rereading of the arc for a bit.
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I’m fine with holding off on continuing this until you reread more. How long do you think you’ll need? I hate to be pushy about it but I don’t want this thread to drag on forever, I have a few more threads I want to get out there before school over takes my life.
 
I'm going to post a summary of why I do not believe the GRC feat is vague, partially as a TLDR, partially so you can have as food for thought whilst you reread parts of the Arrancar Arc @Damage3245

Gran Rey Cero Vaporizing Las Noches
  • Even a Gran Rey Cero from the weakest Espada can destroy Las Noches. After establishing GRC can destroy LN, we have to see if there exists any evidence to quantify and distinguish the type and potency of the destruction.
  • Res Ulq can vaporize a massive portion of LN by just grazing it, Unmasked states that Cero Oscuras can destroy LN, and Masked informs us that GRC is the most powerful Cero. Evaluating this context we are informed of the following: Gran Rey Cero is beyond a 10x amp to someone's regular Cero AP, for Res Ulq GRC is more potent than an attack that can not only destroy LN, but vaporize a massive portion of LN just by grazing it. So, for Res Ulq his GRC > his CO = can destroy LN and vaporized a large portion of LN. Not only is there a strong case that Res Ulq could vaporize all of LN with CO if he aimed it at LN, his GRC would be even stronger, we have an attack that is stronger than an attack that can already destroy LN and displayed power to vaporize. I think a good analogy to go along with this argument is: say a character vaporizes a sizeable chunk of the Earth and turns Earth into a "crescent moon", then said character is stated to be able to destroy Earth with that same attack, and then said character possesses an even stronger attack that is also stated capable of destroying Earth, it would be pretty obvious that said character can completely destroy Earth, they have a really good supporting feat and multiple supporting statements. Same case with Ulquiorra, in Res he has a supporting feat and two supporting statements for vaporizing LN with GRC.
Can all the Espada Vaporize Las Noches?
My Proposal
  • With Res Ulq and any Espada stronger than Res Ulq, I believe we should use the vaporization of LN part of my calc for their GRCs (6-A).
  • For any Espada weaker than Res Ulq I think using pulverization of LN is fine (we see Ceros turn things to dust all the time) or doing a combination of GRCs being "at least 10x" regular Ceros with a non-vaporization end of my calc.
  • Seeing how it's less clear cut for the weaker than Res Ulq characters, opposed to the obvious implications with Res Ulq, I think a solid rating could look like this:
    • Weaker than Res Ulq characters: "at least [10x Base AP], likely [Pulverization End] with Gran Rey Cero"
    • Stronger or on par with Res Ulq characters "[Vaporization End] with Gran Rey Cero"
What's Currently Accepted?
  • Currently pulverization for everyone with GRC is what is accepted. So why are we still discussing which ends to use? People still want to discuss and this thread isn't over, so no harm in continuing discussion in an effort to get the best, most accurate rating for GRC.
 
I think we should just stick with the pulverization method and the scaling from that. Weaker characters like Renji have shown to vaporize things so it makes no sense that only assuming people on Ulquiorra’s level can do it

hell Chad has an accepted vaporization calc so again assuming only people on Ulquiorra’s level can do it is extremely unjustified
 
SilentBob34 said:
so it makes no sense that only assuming people on Ulquiorra’s level can do it
Click to expand...
You misunderstand.

Vaporization is something that must be proven for the specific attack.

For example, just because Res Ulq's Cero Oscuras vaporizes doesn't mean True Bankai Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou vaporizes, despite TB Ichigo being leagues above Res Ulq in power. The attacks don't correlate to each other like that.

Meanwhile, for Res Ulq we have the following: Res Ulq's GRC > Res Ulq's CO = vaporizing a large bit of LN. So, for Res Ulq we can assume his GRC vaporizes, and for characters stronger than Res Ulq we can assume the same as long as they're using the same attack (GRC).

For anyone weaker than Res Ulq, we do not have concrete evidence that their GRCs can vaporize. The best argument I've seen is interpreting the statement "GRC is so powerful it can bend space" as destruction on a level above vaporization, being that Res Ulq's CO couldn't bend space, but that's a bit speculative.

But yes as of now, pulverization is the accepted end, damage just wanted to review some of the Arrancar arc to continue discussing and perhaps reach an even better, more accurate conclusion. Hence, why this thread is still ongoing.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
You misunderstand.

Vaporization is something that must be proven for the specific attack.

For example, just because Res Ulq's Cero Oscuras vaporizes doesn't mean True Bankai Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou vaporizes, despite TB Ichigo being leagues above Res Ulq in power. The attacks don't correlate to each other like that.

Meanwhile, for Res Ulq we have the following: Res Ulq's GRC > Res Ulq's CO = vaporizing a large bit of LN. So, for Res Ulq we can assume his GRC vaporizes, and for characters stronger than Res Ulq we can assume the same as long as they're using the same attack (GRC).

For anyone weaker than Res Ulq, we do not have concrete evidence that their GRCs can vaporize. The best argument I've seen is interpreting the statement "GRC is so powerful it can bend space" as destruction on a level above vaporization, being that Res Ulq's CO couldn't bend space, but that's a bit speculative.

But yes as of now, pulverization is the accepted end, damage just wanted to review some of the Arrancar arc to continue discussing and perhaps reach an even better, more accurate conclusion. Hence, why this thread is still ongoing.
Click to expand...
So that’s still dodging the question of people weaker than Ulquiorra not being able to vaporize things even though a far weaker Chad has an accepted Calc of vaporizing things?? True bankai Ichigo is literally a non factor here so don’t bring him into this. If far weaker people can vaporize things then the only reason you’re trying to say people as strong as Ulquiorra can is because you’re trying to appease both sides when the opposition could give two ***** about your side.

Seriously, everything you’re trying to push falls flat because Chad has an accepted vaporization calc. Don’t ignore and ignore it
 
SilentBob34 said:
So that’s still dodging the question of people weaker than Ulquiorra not being able to vaporize things even though a far weaker Chad has an accepted Calc of vaporizing things?? True bankai Ichigo is literally a non factor here so don’t bring him into this. If far weaker people can vaporize things then the only reason you’re trying to say people as strong as Ulquiorra can is because you’re trying to appease both sides when the opposition could give two ***** about your side.

Seriously, everything you’re trying to push falls flat because Chad has an accepted vaporization calc. Don’t ignore and ignore it
Click to expand...
True Bankai has as much relevance as Chad in this situation. Being weaker or stronger than Ulq is irrelevant here unless you are specifically comparing Ceros that can vape shit on this scale. That’s all that matters rn. Chad doesn’t punch Ceros, Renji powering up isn’t a Cero, Yama’s reiatsu isn’t a Cero. They all vape but they aren’t the ability in question so they don’t matter. Can you show weaker GRC/CO/Cero vaping stuff on such a scale? If you can’t prove that they can, your point falls flat.
 
Iirc, Starrk frags to pulvs buildings, Findorr made explosions, Ggio v frag’d the wall, Poww proofed into smoke when it got stuffed back inside him, Gillian do nothing, Yammy knocks sand around, Harribel’s hits nothing, Tōsen’s never fires, Visoreds cut through stuff, base Ulq’s crushes pillars etc. Grimmjow reducing Luppi and Menoly to a pair of legs is honestly the only stuff I recall from weaker characters that has vaping via Cero.
 
So correct me if I'm wrong but what I'm gathering from this, is that some people don't agree with the strongest Cero variation being vaporization for LN and want scans for weaker Ceros being Vap?
 
No. Damage is considering the vape end of GRC for Res Ulq and stronger and pulverisation for the guys weaker than Res Ulq. Now people want the vape end for everyone which requires evidence that base Yammy’s GRC can randomly output High 6-A energy.
 
Nelliels said:
So correct me if I'm wrong but what I'm gathering from this, is that some people don't agree with the strongest Cero variation being vaporization for LN and want scans for weaker Ceros being Vap?
Click to expand...
https://vsbattles.com/threads/minor-gran-rey-cero-upgrade.119614/post-3968010 -> sums up what's happening

Currently we are rocking with pulverization for all via majority vote.

I believe that vap for Res Ulq and stronger Espada and pulv for weaker Espada is the way to go.

Damage atm is for "at least 10x".

Personally, I could see sumn like "at least 10x, likely pulv" for weaker than Res Ulq Espada and then vap for Res Ulq and stronger Espada.
 
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