Minor Gran Rey Cero Upgrade

[Purgy]

Yeah I’ll type out a value scaling chain, but iirc it’s 7 teraton base Ulq -> 5x AP with Res to 35 -> 10x AP with CO to 350 -> SE Reiryoku > Res CO Reiryoku -> 10x AP with CO to 3.5 Peta -> half power FH Ichigo > Lanza = SE Ulq’s strongest attack -> 2x AP with full power -> FH Ichigo is 7 peta (a bit above baseline High 6-A).

Right so Arc’s first post didn’t take into account Ulq’s x5 from his Rez which resulted in Cero Oscuras only being x10 his base Cero and not the Cero from his Rez. To put it into numbers.

GRC = 7 teratons (6-B) = Hollow Mask Ichigo = Base Ulq < (x5) Rez Ulq = 35 teratons < (x10) CO = 350 teratons (High 6-B) < SE Ulq < (x10) SE CO = 3500 teratons/3.5 petatons (6-A+) < Dino Yammy CO < (x2) Monkey Yammy CO = 7 petatons (High 6-A) < Aizen >= Ichigo

Edit: Damn, Arc ninja’d me but at least the ending is different so it’s all good.

Thanks

 

[Damage3245]

Large Country level (Stated multiple times in the Manga, Novel and Databook that he is above Ulquiorra, Nnoitra and Grimmjow.), Continent level+ with Cero Oscuras (As a higher-ranking Espada than Ulquiorra, his Cero Oscuras should be at least be this strong), Continent level with Gran Rey Cero (As the strongest Espada, his strongest attack would be the strongest among the Espada)f

Shouldn't this be Country level for released Yammy?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Iirc, that’s based on Yammy physically being > SE Ulq > CO = 350 teratons. This would obviously change depending on how SE’s scaling goes.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah Yammy is shown sensing their fight, and then after having sensed their fight, once he goes Res he's like Ulq is trash.

 

[Damage3245]

Yammy physically being > SE Ulq

That's currently not accepted at the moment from what I can tell.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Everyone recognizing SE Ulq's reiatsu is gone -> Yammy reacting to its disappearance -> Yammy can sense he died.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

He is though? Databook straight up says he is the physically strongest of all Espada 3 times or something. SE Ulq is an Espada so Yammy is stronger than him.

Edit: Here is the raws from Unmasked and the translations saying he is the strongest (in terms of raw strength, striking, reiryoku etc), and here is an alternate translation that says the same, a note that points out his physical stats are the strongest out of all Espada, and a character description that brings up how Yammy is the strongest.

 

[Purgy]

Only problem I really have with this scaling chain is the sheer amount of multiplier stacking that is occuring, even if it's technically correct as the multipliers are stated.

I mean, I'm not sure if anybody noticed, but the scaling chain has Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras as 500x stronger than his base AP.

To fix this I think it would be simpler to say that Segunda Etapa is just unquantifiably above Resurreccion Ulquiorra's physical AP, instead of being above his Cero Oscuras.

That would make the scaling chain more of a 50x multiplier as oppose to 500x.

 

[Damage3245]

I mean, I'm not sure if anybody noticed, but the scaling chain has Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras as 500x stronger than his base AP.

I definitely noticed.

 

[Purgy]

I definitely noticed.

You're okay with it?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

That would be an argument from incredulity though. Why is this even an issue?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Res Ulq fires CO -> Uryu senses Res Ulq's CO's spiritual power -> Uryu senses SE Ulq's spiritual power and says "it's unlike any reiryoku I've sensed before, not just its power but it's alien too."

 

[Purgy]

That would be an argument from incredulity though. Why is this even an issue?

It's not an argument from incredulity, it's not that I can't believe Ulquiorra gets that strong, rather I just don't think there's much to support it.

The higher the multiplier the more evidence is needed to support it, what supports a 500x increase?

 

[Damage3245]

You're okay with it?

Not really, no.

I don't think Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra should be 10x his released state. Ichigo was surviving multiple attacks from Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra. Even if Ulquiorra obviously wasn't going all out until he blasted him with the Cero Oscuras, it doesn't make sense for him to be holding back so much.

 

[Purgy]

Not really, no.

I don't think Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra should be 10x his released state.

I agree, that's why I think it would be better to just say that Segunda Etapa is > Resurreccion just without a specific amount, so he's unquantifiably stronger.

Referring to Resurreccions physical stats, not Cero Oscuras btw.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not really, no.

I don't think Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra should be 10x his released state.

Res Ulq fires CO -> Uryu senses Res Ulq's CO's spiritual power -> Uryu senses SE Ulq's spiritual power and says "it's unlike any reiryoku I've sensed before, not just its power but it's alien too."

"I don't think" isn't an argument.

Uryu senses Res Ulq's CO and then later goes on to sense SE Ulq's power and is like "**** SE Ulq's spiritual power unlike anything I've sensed before"

 

[AnonymousBlank]

It's not an argument from incredulity, it's not that I can't believe Ulquiorra gets that strong, rather I just don't think there's much to support it.

The higher the multiplier the more evidence is needed to support it, what supports a 500x increase?

Except it’s not x500 times increase? It’s a x5, a x10 and a x10. It may add up to x500 but it is all small multipliers that are all accepted because they have sufficient evidence.

 

[Purgy]

Except it’s not x500 times increase? It’s a x5, a x10 and a x10. It may add up to x500 but it is all small multipliers that are all accepted because they have sufficient evidence.

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case.

 

[Damage3245]

Except it’s not x500 times increase? It’s a x5, a x10 and a x10. It may add up to x500 but it is all small multipliers that are all accepted because they have sufficient evidence.

Stacking multipliers does effectively make is a x500 increase. The multipliers page mentions this for stacking multipliers, and how the need for evidence grows at the stacked multiplier grows.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Except we know that Res Ulq can vaporize a fourth of LN via grazing it with CO, then SE Ulq gets even stronger, and vaporizing all of LN is 6-A, oddly consistent with where his multipliers take him.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I agree with papa arc.

No but FR, I agree with what he's saying.

 

[Purgy]

Except we know that Res Ulq can vaporize a fourth of LN via grazing it with CO, then SE Ulq gets even stronger, and vaporizing all of LN is 6-A, oddly consistent with where his multipliers take him.

But we don't use the vaporizing all of LN right? We use pulverization.

 

[Damage3245]

Not really, no.

I don't think Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra should be 10x his released state. Ichigo was surviving multiple attacks from Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra. Even if Ulquiorra obviously wasn't going all out until he blasted him with the Cero Oscuras, it doesn't make sense for him to be holding back so much.

My argument isn't just "I don't think".

Ichigo survives multiple attacks from SE Ulquiorra that he shouldn't have if Ulquiorra really was that much more powerful.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Pulverisation is a ridiculous low ball when the GRC never pulverised and a weaker Cero blatantly vaporised. There is absolutely no reason for it to be pulverisation aside from the fact people didn’t want it to vaporisation for which they had no good reason for it not to be.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Pulverisation is a ridiculous low ball when the GRC never pulverised and a weaker Cero blatantly vaporised. There is absolutely no reason for it to be pulverisation aside from the fact people didn’t want it to vaporisation for which they had no good reason for it not to be.

This makes sense. Pulverization would just be a lowball, when we saw an example with grimmjow that it literally vaporizes. It would be far more consistent with vaporization to me tbh.

 

[Damage3245]

By the way, the whole statement at the source of this is still really questionable and is even more doubtful now that we see the end results of all these multipliers.

The Gran Rey Cero can't be used inside Las Noches because it can apparently pulverize every cubic centimeter of it if it is used, but released Yammy, who is hundreds of times stronger than the Gran Rey Cero can fight inside Las Noches without destroying it?

There is a logical consistency issue here.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

My argument isn't just "I don't think".

Ichigo survives multiple attacks from SE Ulquiorra that he shouldn't have if Ulquiorra really was that much more powerful.

Um ……. you are aware that the x500 gap is only for SE CO ……… which killed Ichigo the one time it was used on him?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

By the way, the whole statement at the source of this is still really questionable and is even more doubtful now that we see the end results of all these multipliers.

The Gran Rey Cero can't be used inside Las Noches because it can apparently pulverize every cubic centimeter of it if it is used, but released Yammy, who is hundreds of times stronger than the Gran Rey Cero can fight inside Las Noches without destroying it?

There is a logical consistency issue here.

The paragraph with Yammy is irrelevant. No matter how you try to spin it with whatever values you give GRC, Yammy is supposed to scale above it no matter what so it’ll never make sense. This isn’t a scaling issue but a writing issue in that Kubo gave us a twist but somehow forgot about the rule he told us 10 chapters ago.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

But we don't use the vaporizing all of LN right? We use pulverization.

Maybe that says something about my original premise that Res Ulq and stronger Espada can vape all of LN with a GRC.

Res Ulq's CO vaporizes a massive chunk of LN via grazing it -> Res Ulq's CO can destroy LN via statements, implying that it can potentially vape all of LN if Ulq aimed the attack at it -> GRC > CO -> GRC can destroy LN -> Res Ulq's GRC can very likely cape all of LN -> SE Ulq > Res Ulq's CO via Uryu's statements -> Res Ulq whips out Lanzas that explode and dwarf the size of LN. Ignoring multipliers we have SE Ulq with his strongest attacks being vastly above an attack that vaporized a good deal of LN, implications that he can likely vaporize all of LN (6-A), and he scales to 6-A. It is massively consistent.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

By the way, the whole statement at the source of this is still really questionable and is even more doubtful now that we see the end results of all these multipliers.

The Gran Rey Cero can't be used inside Las Noches because it can apparently pulverize every cubic centimeter of it if it is used, but released Yammy, who is hundreds of times stronger than the Gran Rey Cero can fight inside Las Noches without destroying it?

There is a logical consistency issue here.

Wouldn't that just be an AOE Fallacy? People like goku can destroy the universe with punches, but then not even destroy a building with a key blast.

 

[Purgy]

The Gran Rey Cero can't be used inside Las Noches because it can apparently pulverize every cubic centimeter of it if it is used, but released Yammy, who is hundreds of times stronger than the Gran Rey Cero can fight inside Las Noches without destroying it?

Yammy can control his power, and while he is stupid, he's not stupid enough to destroy Las Noches, he knows that would anger Aizen.

I mean, being able to control your power and focus it on your target is common in fiction, it's not like universe busters destroy planets everytime they fight.

There's also an AP/DC fallacy going on here, Yammy never used GRC

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Yammy can control his power, and while he is stupid, he's not stupid enough to destroy Las Noches, he knows that would anger Aizen.

I mean, being able to control your power and focus it on your target is common in fiction, it's not like universe busters destroy planets everytime they fight.

exactly what I mean, it would be an aoe fallacy

 

[Damage3245]

The paragraph with Yammy is irrelevant. No matter how you try to spin it with whatever values you give GRC, Yammy is supposed to scale above it no matter what.

Hence why I don't think we should be using any calc for Gran Rey Cero. The original statement from Ulquiorra is vague nonsense that apparently can mean anything from violently fragmenting Las Noches to vaporizing it from Arc's calc.

If it can mean anything, and it's up to interpretation, how is this a reliable basis of the massive scaling chain affecting every single Arrancar Arc character?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Um ……. you are aware that the x500 gap is only for SE CO ……… which killed Ichigo the one time it was used on him?

This

SE Ulq's physicals were shattering Ichigo's mask just like Res Ulq's CO too.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Hence why I don't think we should be using any calc for Gran Rey Cero. The original statement from Ulquiorra is vague nonsense that apparently can mean anything from violently fragmenting Las Noches to vaporizing it from Arc's calc.

If it can mean anything, and it's up to interpretation, how is this a reliable basis of the massive scaling chain affecting every single Arrancar Arc character?

You're being manipulative.

You know damn well I included all the low ends because I was asked too. The original calc had pulv and vape.

You are also well aware that Res Ulq vaporized a large portion of LN by grazing it with a Cero that would be weaker than his GRC. So don't pretend it's vague for Res Ulq.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

You're being manipulative.

You know damn well I included all the low ends because I was asked too. The original calc had pulv and vape.

You are also well aware that Res Ulq vaporized a large portion of LN by grazing it with a Cero that would be weaker than his GRC. So don't pretend it's vague for Res Ulq.

If vaporization is consistent, then why is it being argued against? It should be accepted and done with bro

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Yammy can control his power, and while he is stupid, he's not stupid enough to destroy Las Noches, he knows that would anger Aizen.

I mean, being able to control your power and focus it on your target is common in fiction, it's not like universe busters destroy planets everytime they fight.

There's also an AP/DC fallacy going on here, Yammy never used GRC

See , I wanna agree with this but the rule was them not releasing their Rez under the canopy because it is too strong and would destroy LN. If this rule and the circumstances within it apply to the likes of Ulq, it’s really weird that it wouldn’t apply to Yammy who would logically release the most energy out of the top 5 Espada. Kubo just goofed on the writing.

 

[Damage3245]

Kubo just goofed on the writing.

I thought Kubo was the author of impeccable writing and statements?

That should throw the entire statement into question as well. The top Espada released inside the dome; no destruction of Las Noches ensued.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Regarding "Espada 4 and up can destroy LN by releasing their Res" Yammy is only ranked 0 after he goes Res, when he releases it he's technically still rank 10.

So, it can't really be used as a concrete debunk to the statement, but either way it is irrelevant because I'm only talking about Ceros, which have concrete feats to inform the context of the statement.

Like say Res Ulq vaporizing a massive bit of LN with a Cero weaker than his GRC.

 

[Purgy]

See , I wanna agree with this but the rule was them not releasing their Rez under the canopy because it is too strong and would destroy LN. If this rule and the circumstances within it apply to the likes of Ulq, it’s really weird that it wouldn’t apply to Yammy who would logically release the most energy out of the top 5 Espada. Kubo just goofed on the writing.

I don't think it was really the act of them releasing, Ulquiorra's release did zero damage to his enviroment

Rather I think it was the power of their release forms that could destroy it.

But just because you can doesn't mean you're going to or want to, none of the Espada have any reason to destroy their base of operations intentionally.