Minor God of War Removal

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Currently, the Sisters of Fate have Biological Manipulation for supposedly deciding the position of a mortal's limbs. The original context can be seen here. From the description, it seems clear that the text isn't saying that the sisters were moving around people's body parts, but is simply describing Atropos' appearance, saying she had black tendrils swirling where an ordinary person would have legs. We can see this demonstrated in both the games and in her official art. This seems like a pretty straightforward misinterpretation of the text and ought to be removed.

Pages this would affect:

• Kratos
• Magic System Explanation Page (under the Power of the Fates section)
• Spear of Destiny
• Lahkesis
• Atropos
• Clotho

Let me know if I missed any.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Link doesn't work

 

[Planck69]

I don't know if that's an editing mistake or you just got the wrong scan, cause this is where it's from;

“Is he a mortal? Or is he a god? Something in between?” Atropos looked pensive. As she considered the matter, her finger stroked the thread of destiny attached to the young king that had caught her eye before and produced a violent fate for the mortal affixed to the far end. Never slack, always under delightful tension, the poor wight afforded her the chance to think even as he suffered.
“A demigod? How ordinary. The gods mate with mortals endlessly. I get tired of spinning their fate for such unions.” Clotho dismissed the notion out of hand.
Atropos plucked at the thread so expertly that a huge ripple followed it. She smiled at the desired fate delivered to the young ruler. He would reach old age, yes, with all his wit and intelligence, but her single design dictated that he would do so without legs. Exploring his character now would certainly break the sameness of their woven fates. It was good to pioneer new destinies for mortals.

~ God of War II Novelization, Chapter 5.

Nothing to do with her own legs or whatever.

 

[KLOL506]

The scan should simply be changed then.

 

[KLOL506]

Here is the scan:

 

[CloverDragon03]

No reason to remove the ability then. Just swap the scan with the appropriate one

 

[KLOL506]

@Theglassman12 @KingTempest

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, this is looking more like an editing error than anything.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Uh, that's just them changing a guy's fate so he loses his legs. Which can happen via accidents, warfare, or illness (all things the sisters are more than capable of orchestrating). I would not define that as biological manipu by default. Also, to be clear, the scan in the OP is what's currently being used for the justifications.

I don't know if that's an editing mistake or you just got the wrong scan, cause this is where it's from;


Nothing to do with her own legs or whatever.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, to be clear, the scan in the OP is what's currently being used for the justifications.

That's why we're saying to just replace it with the scan KLOL sent

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's why we're saying to just replace it with the scan KLOL sent

I would advise against that since it's assuming that "can orchestrate events to make people lose their legs" is some kind of biological hax and not one of the far more likely ways in which one can lose their legs.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I agree with OP, and I still dont' agree witht he scan KLOL sent

 

[Planck69]

Uh, that's just them changing a guy's fate so he loses his legs. Which can happen via accidents, warfare, or illness (all things the sisters are more than capable of orchestrating). I would not define that as biological manipu by default. Also, to be clear, the scan in the OP is what's currently being used for the justifications.

The context of that scene is her steering him away from a violent end initially decided on him by Clotho, so I'm not seeing how it'd be a result of a indirect accident or war. Seems pretty clear to me that his legs are just woven out of his life.

And like I said, that's an editing error. The scan itself is referencing the one KLOL sent, it was just inexpertly applied.

 

[KLOL506]

The context of that scene is her steering him away from a violent end initially decided on him by Clotho, so I'm not seeing how it'd be a result of a indirect accident or war. Seems pretty clear to me that his legs are just woven out of his life.

And like I said, that's an editing error. The scan itself is referencing the one KLOL sent, it was just inexpertly applied.

Pretty much this, also in those cases of the Sisters causing accidents, illnesses or wars, it's pretty explicitly specified in the novel what the Sisters do (Like, if they wanna bestow illnesses, they mention it, if they wanna sink a continent, they sink it, if they wanna cause dissent with the Threads, it happens without any other external factor being involved). Here tho, no such thing is expressed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The context of that scene is her steering him away from a violent end initially decided on him by Clotho, so I'm not seeing how it'd be a result of a indirect accident or war. Seems pretty clear to me that his legs are just woven out of his life.

And like I said, that's an editing error. The scan itself is referencing the one KLOL sent, it was just inexpertly applied.

Contextually that just means they chose to cripple and not kill him. That's doesn't mean he wouldn't be injured in some way, and I would imagine that most people lose their legs due to injuries rather than some kind of instant leg obliteration magic.

Pretty much this, also in those cases of the Sisters causing accidents, illnesses or wars, it's pretty explicitly specified in the novel what the Sisters do (Like, if they wanna bestow illnesses, they mention it, if they wanna sink a continent, they sink it, if they wanna cause dissent with the Threads, it happens without any other external factor being involved). Here tho, no such thing is expressed.

Why would we not assume it's done via the exact thing the sisters are known to be able to do (and do quite frequently) rather than some new, unexplained ability they never showcase again? This seems like a pretty straightforward case of Occam's Razor.

 

[KLOL506]

Contextually that just means they chose to cripple and not kill him. That's doesn't mean he wouldn't be injured in some way, and I would imagine that most people lose their legs due to injuries rather than some kind of instant leg obliteration magic.

Burden of proof is on you to show they actually inflicted an injury on the mortal to begin with, not us.

Why would we not assume it's done via the exact thing the sisters are known to be able to do (and do quite frequently) rather than some new, unexplained ability they never showcase again? This seems like a pretty straightforward case of Occam's Razor.

Because the novel is explicit with their intents in those cases? Like, where are these baseless speculations coming from?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why would we not assume it's done via the exact thing the sisters are known to be able to do (and do quite frequently) rather than some new, unexplained ability they never showcase again? This seems like a pretty straightforward case of Occam's Razor.

If such a thing like war, illness, etc. is normally specified, then it'd be fallacious to assume it's something of that sort the one time it's not specified

 

[Planck69]

We objectively have only the following information; Clotho weaves a violent end for the king and Atropos undoes that and let's him live a full life but removes his legs. Anything beyond this is sorely an assumption of what they would do.

We don't have any information on what accidents or injuries he took and it would contradict what she was going for in the first place. So, the onus would be on you to prove the indirect action in this instance.

The Fates make clear when they use butterfly-effect like manipulation of Fate when they do so in the novel (like when they end a nation in war via causing a diplomatic incident).

We can call other staff to judge it though.

@Emirp sumitpo @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @Theglassman12

 

[KLOL506]

If such a thing like war, illness, etc. is normally specified, then it'd be fallacious to assume it's something of that sort the one time it's not specified

Exactly. Just because they do it like this in one scene doesn't mean it's the same here, and it shows, especially given the fact that the novel emphasizes heavily that the Sisters can cause any kind of effect they want by just touching the Threads of Fate without causing any chain reaction as part of their whimsical nature.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Burden of proof is on you to show they actually inflicted an injury on the mortal to begin with, not us.


Because the novel is explicit with their intents in those cases? Like, where are these baseless speculations coming from?

KLOL, a novel does not need to spoon feed you context for a certain conclusion can be drawn. Let me break this down for you:

The Sisters of Fate can change a person's destiny, including orchestrating wars, injuries, or illnesses. They use this power to make it so a man will live his life without legs. How did they do this? Was it...
A. By orchestrating an accident where he loses his legs.
B. By creating a war where he loses his legs.
C. By inflicting him with an illness which ends up removing his legs.
D. Magically wishing his legs away.

A, B, and C are all pretty natural conclusions to come to, even to someone not intimately familiar with the series; D, however, is a significant reach that requires more context.

 

[KLOL506]

KLOL, a novel does not need to spoon feed you context for a certain conclusion can be drawn. Let me break this down for you:

The Sisters of Fate can change a person's destiny, including orchestrating wars, injuries, or illnesses. They use this power to make it so a man will live his life without legs. How did they do this? Was it...
A. By orchestrating an accident where he loses his legs.
B. By creating a war where he loses his legs.
C. By inflicting him with an illness which ends up removing his legs.
D. Magically wishing his legs away.

A, B, and C are all pretty natural conclusions to come to, even to someone not intimately familiar with the series; D, however, is a significant reach that requires more context.

Again, prove that they used any of that on the mortal in that specific scene. Just because they do it in other cases doesn't mean it happens here, especially when the novel goes out of their way to prove that when the Sisters mean something, they do it just like how they intended. I don't get what the "spoon-feeding" point is supposed to be about since that doesn't work here anyway solely due to narrative context. If you can't get that then honestly I don't know what to say.

In any case, I'd rather we let staff hash it out now.

 

[Theglassman12]

you say that like magically wishing things away is somehow too far fetched for the fates when they literally control everything with their threads and make the impossible happen, so your comparison doesn't really line up here. Either way I'm fine with swapping the scans here.

 

[Deagonx]

Burden of proof is on you to show they actually inflicted an injury on the mortal to begin with, not us.

The burden of proof is to show that what is occurring is actually biological manipulation. All we are told is that she inflicts a fate upon this mate wherein he will reach old age without legs. This could be many things other than "biological manipulation." We have no reason to assume that's what she's saying, and it seems far more plausible that if someone is manipulating a person's fate in a way that results in them "reaching old age without legs" that something during the course of their life will take their legs.

you say that like magically wishing things away is somehow too far fetched for the fates

It's not a matter of being far fetched, it's that the replacement scan being provided doesn't actually describe biological manipulation. It's vague enough that it could be interpreted into the scan, but it's not the most straightforward or plausible interpretation, and if we don't have any real evidence of biological manip then the ability needs to be removed.

--

All this to say, I am in agreement with the OP. Neither the current scan nor its replacement are evidence of biological manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

you say that like magically wishing things away is somehow too far fetched for the fates when they literally control everything with their threads and make the impossible happen, so your comparison doesn't really line up here. Either way I'm fine with swapping the scans here.

"It isn't far fetched" yeah man, I know that. Doesn't mean we can just give them whatever ability we feel like when there are infinitely more reasonably explanations at hand. Like, contextually, they aren't Biden Blasting his legs away immediately, they just set up events in a way so that he'd end up losing them, which would imply that some force outside of the fates would cause that to happen (even though they're the ones that made such an event occur).

 

[Planck69]

It also ignores the context of the feat entirely. A and B are already out since it's a violent fate and C is contradicted by the fact that they specify indirect action in the novel more often than not. These are the same Fates that can induce irritation and wrath in a god or natural disasters via their abilities so direct magical action isn't anything new to them.

 

[KLOL506]

The burden of proof is to show that what is occurring is actually biological manipulation. All we are told is that she inflicts a fate upon this mate wherein he will reach old age without legs. This could be many things other than "biological manipulation." We have no reason to assume that's what she's saying, and it seems far more plausible that if someone is manipulating a person's fate in a way that results in them "reaching old age without legs" that something during the course of their life will take their legs.

Again, prove that something like this happens in this specific feat, or this argument simply doesn't work.

It's not a matter of being far fetched, it's that the replacement scan being provided doesn't actually describe biological manipulation. It's vague enough that it could be interpreted into the scan, but it's not the most straightforward or plausible interpretation, and if we don't have any real evidence of biological manip then the ability needs to be removed.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Deagonx]

Again, prove that something like this happens in this specific feat, or this argument simply doesn't work.

You have it backwards. Biological manipulation needs to be proven for them to keep this ability. You're treating your position like the default assumption that wins out in absence of a proven alternative, but that's not how a burden of proof works.

By my assessment, biological manipulation is not an especially plausible interpretation even if it is technically possible. However, in any case, biological manipulation is not proven by this statement and in absence of better evidence the ability needs to be removed.

All we know concretely is that she manipulated his destiny in a manner that will result in him reaching old age without legs. There are several mechanisms that could accomplish this other than biological manip, that's inarguable. As a result, the ability doesn't have sufficient evidence behind it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Again, prove that something like this happens in this specific feat, or this argument simply doesn't work.

The burden of proof isn't on us here, KLOL. GoW supporters were the ones who added bio hax to the pages, and so they're the ones that need to substantiate that claim. Just as you can say "what says they orchestrated an injury for this guy?", I could just as easily say "what says they used biological manipulation on this guy?". Your own interpretation has 0 proof, and so you are deflecting the burden of proof onto me.

It also ignores the context of the feat entirely. A and B are already out since it's a violent fate and C is contradicted by the fact that they specify indirect action in the novel more often than not. These are the same Fates that can induce irritation and wrath in a god or natural disasters via their abilities so direct magical action isn't anything new to them.

Uh, not really? Contextually, Atropos orchestrates an ending for the mortal (ie; death), and Clotho decides to let him live... albeit in a crippled state. They don't say how he becomes disabled, but there's not really any option outright excluded; You're interpreting this as them avoiding any violent options, when it's really just that they decided not to outright kill the poor guy.

 

[Planck69]

My stance on this remains unchanged. So, I suppose we can just ask more staff to evaluate this.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'll serve as the vote tally guy in advance:

Agree: Deagonx, Damage3245
Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12, KLOL506, CloverDragon03 (all support replacing the scan in the OP)
Neutral:

(Bolded names indicate evaluating staff; I'll only be counting votes from staff members because it's easier for me that way)

 

[Quibster]

Here is the scan:

Okay this text does not outright infer Biological Manip. Where in the text am I supposed to interpret this specifically?

1, They pluck a string
2, Someone they chose loses their legs
3, It's bio manip... no? WHERE IS THE BIO MANIP PART OF THE TEXT??

I could interpret this as anything other than Bio Manip. RW or just Magic sounds more plausible than this.

 

[Planck69]

Okay this text does not outright infer Biological Manip. Where in the text am I supposed to interpret this specifically?

1, They pluck a string
2, Someone they chose loses their legs
3, It's bio manip... no? WHERE IS THE BIO MANIP PART OF THE TEXT??

The king is to have met a violent end as per Clotho's weaving. Atropos changes that so he rules for the rest of his life with faculties in tact but no legs. The Biological Manipulation being debated is where she just removed his legs via her magic or did it indirectly (which would thus not be Biological Manipulation).

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Again, prove that something like this happens in this specific feat, or this argument simply doesn't work.


Agree to disagree.

My stance on this remains unchanged. So, I suppose we can just ask more staff to evaluate this.

I think it's interesting how both of you, when faced with someone asking you to provide evidence of your claims, choose to go "agree to disagree" rather than providing evidence. Is there a followup scene in the novel where his legs pop right off after the fates decree it must happen? Is this scene depicted in the game? I would hope you can do more to substantiate what you're saying beyond "yeah well I think I'm right so we'll leave it at that".

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Here is the scan:

How did he lose his legs?

If they were chopped off by someone in combat or at some random point, I'd think that would be more akin to just the Fate Manipulation doing it's job through an act.

Or did his legs magically get mangled or removed out of nowhere by an unknown force. This would be biological manipulation at work.

I think it's interesting how both of you, when faced with someone asking you to provide evidence of your claims, choose to go "agree to disagree" rather than providing evidence. Is there a followup scene in the novel where his legs pop right off after the fates decree it must happen? Is this scene depicted in the game? I would hope you can do more to substantiate what you're saying beyond "yeah well I think I'm right so we'll leave it at that".

They have a right to their opinion. I see nothing "interesting" about it.

 

[Planck69]

I think it's interesting how both of you, when faced with someone asking you to provide evidence of your claims, choose to go "agree to disagree" rather than providing evidence. Is there a followup scene in the novel where his legs pop right off after the fates decree it must happen? Is this scene depicted in the game? I would hope you can do more to substantiate what you're saying beyond "yeah well I think I'm right so we'll leave it at that".

Fuji, I've explained very well why your assumptions don't make sense with the context of the scan (on two different posts) and pointed out how the novels specifies indirect manipulation when it happens. I am happy to supply scans for that but if you think I'm getting into a text wall match with you, you're mistaken. I've made my case for evaluating staff to look at, that's all I really care to do.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How did he lose his legs?

If they were chopped off by someone in combat or at some random point, I'd think that would be more akin to just the Fate Manipulation doing it's job through an act.

Or did his legs magically get mangled or removed out of nowhere by an unknown force. This would be biological manipulation at work.

They have a right to their opinion. I see nothing "interesting" about it.

We are not told how he lost his legs. Just that, at some undefined point is his life, he loses his legs,

 

[Planck69]

How did he lose his legs?

If they were chopped off by someone in combat or at some random point, I'd think that would be more akin to just the Fate Manipulation doing it's job through an act.

Or did his legs magically get mangled or removed out of nowhere by an unknown force. This would be biological manipulation at work.

We're only really told that he would've died violently and Atropos changed that to him living a full life with a healthy mind but no legs.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I disagree

 

[Eseseso]

Planck seems to make sense here.

 

[Deagonx]

The king is to have met a violent end as per Clotho's weaving. Atropos changes that so he rules for the rest of his life with faculties in tact but no legs. The Biological Manipulation being debated is where she just removed his legs via her magic or did it indirectly (which would thus not be Biological Manipulation).

If there's no evidence that she "removed his legs via her magic" then we should not be giving biological manip even if these two options were both equally plausible. However, this section of the book goes to great lengths to describe indirect action, which makes the latter interpretation far more likely. These are all of the quotes where Atropos' work on this thread is described:

Atropos looked up from her own work, measuring the length of a thread of destiny tied to a rod to maintain tension. If it slackened, she might have to remeasure and give the boon of a longer life to the young king tethered to the far end. Worse, he might die too quickly should impetuous Lahkesis cut prematurely because of the drooping fate. Atropos stretched out a talon-fingered hand, using her long nails to mark off the proper life-length on the thread. "Why, sister, have you decided so quickly on this one?" Clotho asked, looking over from the spinneret snaking out destinies.
"You are right," said Atropos, ignoring Kratos' black thread in favor of another, more interesting one. "I am concentrating on an important mortal. He wiggles and darts about but has no hope of evading the fate I have in store for him." "Not another of those tedious diseases you are so fond of?" Clotho reared back.
"War," insisted Atropos. "I have found a new path to destruction that is fitting for this particular character."

As she considered the matter, her finger stroked the thread of destiny attached to the young king that had caught her eye before and produced a violent fate for the mortal affixed to the far end. Never slack, always under delightful tension, the poor wight afforded her the chance to think even as he suffered.

Atropos plucked at the thread so expertly that a huge ripple followed it. She smiled at the desired fate delivered to the young ruler. He would reach old age, yes, with all his wit and intelligence, but her single design dictated that he would do so without legs. Exploring his character now would certainly break the sameness of their woven fates. It was good to pioneer new destinies for mortals.

Let's cut through the prose here. She's concerned about this mortal dying too quickly, and says he can't escape the fate she has in store for him. Clotho asks if she's going to use diseases again, and she respond that she's going to use "war" for the "new path to destruction." Finally it says she produced a violent fate, and her design dictates that he will reach old age but without legs."

Obviously he loses his legs in the war, this is very straightforward. That is the "fate" Atropos has in store, that is her "single design" and the "destiny" that she pioneered for him. The author couldn't shout "indirect" any louder than this.

And even if for some reason you think that the above isn't strong enough evidence that she is doing this indirectly, the simple fact remains that there's no evidence of her just magic-ing away his legs, so the end result is the same: Biological manipulation should be removed.