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Mind/Soul Manipulation Revisions V2: Numbers aren't everything (Staff only)

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Bobsican

Bobsican

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Okay, as the previous thread got derailed with inconsistent input from normal users, and this being a relevant topic for future versus threads and the like, I'm redoing this thread in the staff board, and I'll also summarize some of the arguments given on my part.

The basic argument is that while it appears that we rate Mind and Soul Manipulation with the amount of subjects affected as a metric to evaluate its potency as a factor, the issue is that this factor isn't always relevant to measure it, let alone on a meaningful way compared to an actual resistance.
An assumption is done to say that more power than normal is done for a mind/soul manip user to manipulate more minds/souls at once, which is false by default given that some verses can apply either ability without anything from the user being applied in real time (Such as just making them lose their will, or having souls within its area be weakened, and the way of spreading the power not being related to its potency, which obviously isn't dependant on "numerical" power, or more specifically, the amount of subjects affected), and even then something to confirm such power being possible to concentrate by the user to a single target, let alone how to compare this to an actual resistance.
In fact, this is how we rate about every other hax ability (last section of the post).

The way such manipulation works also matters, a mind manipulation resistance based on preventing alterations on the brain won't necessarily work with something paranormal that affects a more abstract kind of "mind", nor will a mind manipulation that affected 5 random subjects necessarily be capable to also affect a single being with an actual resistance, but I'm sure that's known already.

In a nutshell, an amount of people and an amount of resistance layers don't correlate, and someone being able to manipulate countless minds/souls doesn't mean that "countless power" is applied to each individual one, nor that the one doing so can necessarily concentrate (not just use) such power as a whole to a single target, nor such amp (if any) being comparable to a proper compatible resistance.
Therefore, I think we shouldn't use numbers to quantify the power of mind or soul manip by default unless the case also specifies how such detail is relevant for its power, and it being relatable to an actual compatible resistance, let alone it being concentrable by the user to a single target as said before, otherwise it's just unquantificable, and it just being portrayed as a big deal obviously wouldn't be enought, but rather if such power is sustained by the user's own power (Rather than just like inflicting a disease).
 
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Well, as I said in the last thread, I think which metric is used to judge mind hax/soul hax potency needs to fit the mechanism and context of the ability.
Similar thing also for resisting mind/soul hax. In 1-on-1 the potency of the mind/soul hax would determine the resistance and when someone is attacked by multiple mind hax users mechanism and context would tell whether that adds up or not.

Whether some potency overcomes a certain resistance will then depend on direct comparison. It can be inconclusive or also a matter of opinion in vs-threads, if the metrics don't coincide.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
So the suggestion is that we rate it based on the application of mindhax rather than the number of minds haxed?

I suppose that is more of a cover-all than the current system, but I'd jot myself down as neutral for the moment.
Click to expand...
The suggestion is to no longer use numbers of subjects affected to measure potency by default (As the OP explains, not only it can't be assumed that a character that mindhaxes countless people also applies "countless" potency to each individual one, an assumption shouldn't also be done over a character being able to concentrate (not just use) such power to a single target to raise its potency accordingly, and such increase in potency (if confirmed at all), can't be really compared to a proper compatible resistance).

If we want to keep such numbers still usable in vs threads after matching all the other criteria for there to be a power increase of the power to begin with (And not just "unquantificable", even though we don't slap numbers for the sake of usability, see unquantificable multipliers, for example), some standard should probably be done to remain consistent, for example, how many compatible resistance layers (aka, resistance to resistance negation layers, for example a character has 1 resistance layer when they resist a baseline ability, but 2 layers if they resist an ability that ignores a single resistance level) would be acceptable for a character to resist a mindhax that affects thousands of people in a manner that relate to its potency?
 
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Bobsican said:
If we want to keep such numbers still usable in vs threads after matching all the other criteria for there to be a power increase of the power to begin with (And not just "unquantificable", even though we don't slap numbers for the sake of usability, see unquantificable multipliers, for example), some standard should probably be done to remain consistent, for example, how many compatible resistance layers (aka, resistance to resistance negation layers, for example a character has 1 resistance layer when they resist a baseline ability, but 2 layers if they resist an ability that ignores a single resistance level) would be acceptable for a character to resist a mindhax that affects thousands of people in a manner that relate to its potency?
Click to expand...
Things is, not all resistance layers are equal. Some resistances make you immune up to a potency, while others just lessen the effect. And some are more continuous than others. E.g. in Kumo desu ga there is also a resistance stat that goes from 0 to 99999. Since higher resistance stat means resisting weaker stat in the hax in question (including mind & soul hax) these are technically 100000 layers. However, obviously, one point difference in those stats isn't comparable to a single level in one of kumo desu ga's (or some other series) resistance skills. Likewise, would each level in a resistance skill be a layer or only basic form of the resistance skill vs higher form of the resistance skill?
So establishing that effecting x souls = 1 layer of resistance is problematic since not all layers of resistance are equal at all.
 
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DontTalkDT said:
Things is, not all resistance layers are equal. Some resistances make you immune up to a potency, while others just lessen the effect. And some are more continuous than others. E.g. in Kumo desu ga there is also a resistance stat that goes from 0 to 99999. Since higher resistance stat means resisting weaker stat in the hax in question (including mind & soul hax) these are technically 100000 layers. However, obviously, one point difference in those stats isn't comparable to a single level in one of kumo desu ga's (or some other series) resistance skills. Likewise, would each level in a resistance skill be a layer or only basic form of the resistance skill vs higher form of the resistance skill?
So establishing that effecting x souls = 1 layer of resistance is problematic since not all layers of resistance are equal at all.
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Hmmm... I suppose we could just do as we treat with other unquantificable cases, and just focus on how the series in question treats such increase in power against a resistance level, as we'd do for any other kind of unquantificable increase in power, this would still leave the aspect of cases that never interacted (or related) to a proper resistance being assumed to still be below an actual compatible resistance, however.

Context would also matter, as we don't give resistance negation to characters that just overwhelm a resistance, for instance, and a slightly higher potency won't necessarily fully overwhelm a resistance either.
 
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DontTalk and Celestial make sense to myself.
 
Bobsican said:
Hmmm... I suppose we could just do as we treat with other unquantificable cases, and just focus on how the series in question treats such increase in power against a resistance level, as we'd do for any other kind of unquantificable increase in power, this would still leave the aspect of cases that never interacted (or related) to a proper resistance being assumed to still be below an actual compatible resistance, however.

Context would also matter, as we don't give resistance negation to characters that just overwhelm a resistance, for instance, and a slightly higher potency won't necessarily fully overwhelm a resistance either.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm just saying that it would be difficult to say 1000 minds/souls affected (with hax where numbers matter) = 2 layers of resistance bypassed or something similarly specific.

Luckily, in the vast majority of matches, it will suffice to prove that resistance or attack is above baseline, so that it doesn't matter which metric is used. In another good chunk, both verses use an easily comparable scale. For the rest, we will just have to see if an argument can be constructed case-by-case in my opinion.
Worst case we end up concluding that there is no way to tell whether the hax or the resistance is stronger and then there is no shame in admitting that by voting inconclusive.
 
I think it should be a case by case basis; but it's not so much range but area of effect that can measure potency as DontTalkDT said on another thread. And Numbers are still a factor, just not the sole factor. But also the severity of a mind hax like a slight temporary guidance as opposed to a full on permanent psychology rewrite. And it usually requires stronger resistance against active mind manipulation compared to passive mind manipulation.
 
Medeus makes sense to me as well.

Does anybody have any suggestions for what, if any, changes that we should make based on the above conclusions from our staff members?
 
If it's accepted to not use numbers by default to measure potency of either ability, a Versus Thread rule over the subject to clarify that could be done, or otherwise a note on the Soul Manipulation and Mind Manipulation pages.
 
I thought that the other staff members considered it a too complicated procedure to attempt to find other means of measurement in this case, but I may misremember.
 
I think some footnotes sound more appropriate than a general rule tbh.
 
Where would those footnotes be placed?
 
Okay. That seems fine to me.
 
For Mind Manipulation maybe something like:
When judging the potency of Mind Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Mind Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.
These factors need to be examined with the mechanism in mind, to determine if they actually demonstrate potency. For example, for a mind-controlling gas simply affecting more people with it, by using lots of the gas, would not indicate an increase in potency of the gas as simply more of it was used. The effect couldn't be accumulated to be as strong on a single target as it is on all affected individuals summed up.

Whether Mind Manipulation can overcome a resistance against it based on certain feats has to be determined by comparing the various factors at play. Generally, baseline resistance can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with above baseline potency in any factor. Resistance that is above baseline in some factors, can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with even higher potency in the same factors. When it comes to resistance that is above baselines in some factors and Mind Manipulation that is above baselines in other factors, one has to see on a case-by-case basis whether a convincing argument can be put forth. Otherwise, such a situation will have an inconclusive result.
How the mechanism of the Mind Manipulation interacts with the mechanism of the resistance is, of course, also relevant.
Click to expand...
Does that cover everything?

For soul manipulation, one can use more-or-less the same text. Just switch "mind" to "soul".
 
I'd just add "potentially" before the "considered", namely to make it clear that not all of those factors necessarily are at play, as they depend on how the power itself applies, the resistance involved and so on. Thus...

When judging the potency of Mind Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. (...)

Also, we could also list what a "baseline" is for these powers, as I'm sure in the previous thread some users weren't sure what would fall as "baseline" Mind/Soul Manip.
 
I'm ok with the potentially. So:
When judging the potency of Mind Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Mind Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.
These factors need to be examined with the mechanism in mind, to determine if they actually demonstrate potency. For example, for a mind-controlling gas simply affecting more people with it, by using lots of the gas, would not indicate an increase in potency of the gas as simply more of it was used. The effect couldn't be accumulated to be as strong on a single target as it is on all affected individuals summed up.

Whether Mind Manipulation can overcome a resistance against it based on certain feats has to be determined by comparing the various factors at play. Generally, baseline resistance can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with above baseline potency in any factor. Resistance that is above baseline in some factors, can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with even higher potency in the same factors. When it comes to resistance that is above baselines in some factors and Mind Manipulation that is above baselines in other factors, one has to see on a case-by-case basis whether a convincing argument can be put forth. Otherwise, such a situation will have an inconclusive result.
How the mechanism of the Mind Manipulation interacts with the mechanism of the resistance is, of course, also relevant.
Click to expand...


Defining the baseline, huh? I guess it would be "Affect one person in any way" with no feats beyond that? Then again, if potency is taken into account, the true baseline would be to affect one character in an extremely minor fashion. Like mind manip that only makes someone more likely to do a certain thing. Personally, I would consider stuff like that below baseline, though. As strange as that is.
 
Considering the nature of these powers it would perhaps be best to focus less on a baseline and more up to the displayed capability of the ability itself for the purposes of potency, namely compared to a resistance that may be presented in a match-up.

Therefore it would be best to replace the mentions of "baseline" with something else, so perhaps...

When judging the potency of Mind Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Mind Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.
These factors need to be examined with the mechanism in mind, to determine if they actually demonstrate potency. For example, for a mind-controlling gas simply affecting more people with it, by using lots of the gas, would not indicate an increase in potency of the gas as simply more of it was used. The effect couldn't be accumulated to be as strong on a single target as it is on all affected individuals summed up.

Whether Mind Manipulation can overcome a resistance against it based on certain feats has to be determined by comparing the various factors at play. Generally, a resistance can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with higher potency in any factor. A resistance that is higher in some factors, can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with even higher potency in the same factors. When it comes to resistance that is above in some factors and Mind Manipulation that is superior in other factors, one has to see on a case-by-case basis whether a convincing argument can be put forth. Otherwise, such a situation will have an inconclusive result.
How the mechanism of the Mind Manipulation interacts with the mechanism of the resistance is, of course, also relevant.
Click to expand...
 
Hmmm... I can agree with the idea in principle, but for a formulation like "A resistance that is higher in some factors, can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with even higher potency in the same factors." the question would be "higher than what?" since it in this context can't mean "higher than the resistance's factors".
A bit more reformulation might be able to fix that:
When judging the potency of Mind Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Mind Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.
These factors need to be examined with the mechanism in mind, to determine if they actually demonstrate potency. For example, for a mind-controlling gas simply affecting more people with it, by using lots of the gas, would not indicate an increase in potency of the gas as simply more of it was used. The effect couldn't be accumulated to be as strong on a single target as it is on all affected individuals summed up.

Whether Mind Manipulation can overcome a resistance against it based on certain feats has to be determined by comparing the various factors at play. Generally, a resistance can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with higher potency in any factor, if the resistance is equal, less or unknown in all other factors. When it comes to resistance that is above the Mind Manipulation in some factors, while the Mind Manipulation that is superior in other factors, one has to see on a case-by-case basis whether a convincing argument can be put forth. Otherwise, such a situation will have an inconclusive result.
How the mechanism of the Mind Manipulation interacts with the mechanism of the resistance is, of course, also relevant.
Click to expand...
Besides the highlighted parts, I deleted the "A resistance that is higher in some factors, can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with even higher potency in the same factors" sentence here, since it is unneeded with the reformulated prior sentence.
 
Okay, I don't think anything else should be changed from my perspective, but as usual, what does everyone else thinks?
 
I think this leaves it a bit vague, but then again I hardly interact with mind manip discussions anyways.
 
Thank you for the replies.

We can wait a bit longer, and if we receive no further input, the new wording can probably be applied.
 
Thank you for the reply. Should we apply this revision then?
 
I think so, yes. Good point.

Would somebody here be willing to apply appropriately worded versions of this revision to all 4 of these powers and abilities pages?
 
If the note is going to be added to all subpowers of Mind Manipulation, then it should also be added to Sleep Manipulation and Madness Manipulation too, and perhaps some others I may be forgetting.
But at that point indexing it as a Versus Thread Rule standard may be better, after all, this only affects usage in versus threads, rather than indexing in itself.
 
Maybe so. What do the rest of you think?
 
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