Mind/Soul Manipulation Revisions V2: Numbers aren't everything (Staff only)

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Vietthai96]

I know this is staff thread, sorry for intruding but what about Corruption and Moral Manipulation. Also Social Influencing

 

[Bobsican]

Moral Manipulation is a subset of Mind Manip, so it'd be inherently affected.

Regarding Corruption, the number of individuals affected at once isn't necessarily related to the potency of the ability, nor can such ability be necessarily concentrable by the user to a single target and raise such potency accordingly.

Social Influencing isn't even hax per-say, but rather just a fancy way of saying a character can convince others with no "special" trick beyond the ability to pass ideas in a way many may accept. Someone with solid social influencing convincing multiple people at once by broadcasting on TV their speech wouldn't relate the numbers involved to its potency at all, in the same way a gas causing mindhax across a country isn't applying the potency of a country's worth of individuals on each one.

As I've mentioned in the previous thread before, we'd treat about every hax ability like as I've explained with Corruption a bit above in this same post, so the note over this stuff would be better being repurposed to just about any hax ability on second thought, rather than just Mind or Soul Manipulation, it just so happens that other abilities like Time Stop or Fate Manip are far more generalized and broad, but we want to take every single semantic when Mind or Soul Manip are involved for some reason, which is what this clarification is meant to cover to avoid overfocusing on a single aspect that may not even be relevant at all for their potency in the first place.

Thus this may be worth adding as a Versus Thread Rule:

When judging the potency of hax-based abilities such as Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation, and the resistance against them, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the power can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.
These factors need to be examined with the mechanism in mind, to determine if they actually demonstrate potency. For example, for a mind-controlling gas simply affecting more people with it, by using lots of the gas, would not indicate an increase in potency of the gas as simply more of it was used. The effect couldn't be accumulated to be as strong on a single target as it is on all affected individuals summed up.

Whether a power can overcome a resistance against it based on certain feats has to be determined by comparing the various factors at play. Generally, for example, a resistance can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with higher potency in any factor, if the resistance is equal, less or unknown in all other factors. When it comes to resistance that is above the Mind Manipulation in some factors, while the Mind Manipulation that is superior in other factors, one has to see on a case-by-case basis whether a convincing argument can be put forth. Otherwise, such a situation will have an inconclusive result.
How the mechanism of the power (Such as the before-mentioned Mind Manipulation) interacts with the mechanism of the resistance is, of course, also relevant.

It may need some better rewording however, so I'm open to what others think.

 

[KingTempest]

That should be added to Hax instead of Versus Thread Rules

 

[Antvasima]

KingTempest is probably correct.

 

[Bobsican]

Any changes that should be done to the wording? Or it's fine to add as is?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, and am too tired and overworked to handle this at the moment. Other staff members will have to help out.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The hax page sounds like a good page to put it and I think Bobsican's last reformulation is fine.

Well, maybe delete the word "generally" from it, but aside from that.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation. Bobsican's text is probably fine to add to the Hax page then.

 

[Bobsican]

Per request the only change to do is remove the "Generally", so...

When judging the potency of hax-based abilities such as [[Mind Manipulation]] and [[Soul Manipulation]], and the resistance against them, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the power can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.
These factors need to be examined with the mechanism in mind, to determine if they actually demonstrate potency. For example, for a mind-controlling gas simply affecting more people with it, by using lots of the gas, would not indicate an increase in potency of the gas as simply more of it was used. The effect couldn't be accumulated to be as strong on a single target as it is on all affected individuals summed up.

Whether a power can overcome a resistance against it based on certain feats has to be determined by comparing the various factors at play. For example, a resistance can be overcome by Mind Manipulation with higher potency in any factor, if the resistance is equal, less or unknown in all other factors. When it comes to resistance that is above the Mind Manipulation in some factors, while the Mind Manipulation that is superior in other factors, one has to see on a case-by-case basis whether a convincing argument can be put forth. Otherwise, such a situation will have an inconclusive result.
How the mechanism of the power (Such as the before-mentioned Mind Manipulation) interacts with the mechanism of the resistance is, of course, also relevant.

 

[KingTempest]

affecting countless beings doesn't mean that countless power is also applied to each individual subject, nor does it mean that the user can concentrate all of such power to a single target (And raise it accordingly).

This was stated in another thread.

What if it's stated that the user can concentrate all their power into a single target?

 

[Bobsican]

Well, then a power increase is indeed present (and plausible on this regard), although it's unquantificable compared to a compatible resistance, as explained in the previous thread, unless it can be related to an amount of resistance layers and so on.
We don't go around grabbing numbers for stat amps without a proper number (nor do we assume that the fusion of two characters equals a direct sum of their power, and thus we shouldn't assume the sum of beings involved in such cases also translates the power involved as directly either), so more often than not it'd be unusable compared to a compatible resistance if there's no way to relate the increase of potency to resistance layers.

 

[Antvasima]

Which pages should I unlock for editing? Or are there still issues to discuss here?

 

[Bobsican]

It should just be added to the Hax page, I don't think anything is left to elaborate unless we want to also specify how relate a hax to a resistance.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so not to Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, etcetera?

 

[Bobsican]

Indeed, this really applies to about any hax ability, so its addition to that page is best.

 

[Vietthai96]

Sorry Bob and Ant for intruding again, i have some opinion:
Should we link the Hax page with a Note under abilities hax (except mundane abilities like martial art, weapon master,....) so people can read it. Sure it could cause a lot of work, but i think it is neccessary cuz it can at least reduce the amount of people being aggressive when it come to hax belong to their favorite verse, which let me be honest cause many unwanted aggression between members in a vs thread, we need a true direction so member can follow and debate

 

[Bobsican]

TBH listing it on the Hax page is more than enought, making it even easier to find not only is quite more work, it'd also be redundant and turn management over this rule even harder, this is like asking to list a Tiering System note on every page that uses it directly.

That being said, if we really want to make it even easier to notice, we could make a new section in the top bar of the wiki that features such content. I've noticed that there's an open slot for a new section in the Information segment, maybe it could be called "Important Terms 2", as it complements the previous list.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yes, that what i want, just a note link link the page so people could read and know

 

[Bobsican]

So uh... can a staff member unlock the Hax page?

 

[Antvasima]

Wouldn't it be better to add a link to to the Hax page to one of our "Gudelines: Policies" folders in the wiki navigation bar instead?

So uh... can a staff member unlock the Hax page?

I will do so. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm done.

Also, I'd be fine with it (the Hax page) being added to that segment of the Wiki Navigation bar.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will add it then.

Does anybody else here have additional thoughts regarding this topic?

 

[Bobsican]

Also, now that I'm remembering, shouldn't the last part in Mind Manipulation be removed? Now it's redundant given the note in the Hax page, and maybe even misleading in some aspects given the higher vagueness.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe you can reword that segment instead, to avoid future misunderstandings?

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not sure, as said before, it's quite redundant and would bring inconsistencies in the future when the Hax page gets edited but not that page's wording over the exact same standard, this stuff has to be future-proof after all.

But if it really has to stay...

When judging the potency of Mind Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be potentially considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Mind Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc. For more information visit the [[Hax]] page.

That way it serves as a clarification that makes it easier to notice Hax standards without compromising Hax standards as a whole when editing is required,

 

[Antvasima]

That seems like a very good solution to me.

Is it fine with the rest of you if we apply that?

Also, should we add the "For more information visit the [[Hax]] page." sentence to any other powers pages as well?

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I have applied your text to the page:

Mind Manipulation

Mind Manipulation is the ability to manipulate and control the minds of others. It is associated with Telepathy and Mind Reading, and these powers are often possessed by the same characters. While basic mind manipulation can be used for psychic suggestion and simple manipulation, higher-level...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Is there anything left to do here, or should I close this thread?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I believe it can be closed at this point, since the accepted changes have been applied.