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Mind Manipulation revision: Numbers ain't everything

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As said before, this is the equivalent of making up numbers to an unquantificable stat amp for the sake of it being usable in vs threads, which is a no out of effectively exaggerating the capabilities of someone. Mindhaxing an infinite amount of beings is just range, not potency, and even if someone could focus such power to a single target (Which can't be assumed to be something every mindhaxer can do), it would be unquantificably higher, I've also already illustrated before how numbers and resistance layers don't correlate and shouldn't be equalized.
no it doesn't ? This isn't time stop , you don't affect a single thing, you affect many at once.

Being able to control 1 mind wich is 10m from you is no different in terms of potency than to control 1 mind from across the universe . That would be an example of range.

Being able to control more = more potency not range .
 
no it doesn't ? This isn't time stop , you don't affect a single thing, you affect many at once.

Being able to control 1 mind wich is 10m from you is no different in terms of potency than to control 1 mind from across the universe . That would be an example of range.

Being able to control more = more potency not range .
Verses with a time stop that's limited to a select area or target aren't unheard of, and it having a smaller AoE doesn't mean it's stronger or weaker by itself, for instance.

Exactly, mind manip, like any other hax, isn't bound to a number of targets regularly, not every case of mind manip involves the user passively (or actively) sustaining this effect, but rather just changing the way their mind work (Ex, some drug, or just forcing them to forget their will), and having an higher range doesn't necessarily turns it stronger as the OP explains with the example of time stop covering an area instead of the universe not necessarily becoming stronger, or vice-versa.

An statement would be required to claim that, an assumption would be required otherwise after all, and even then such raise in potency would be unquantificable if no further details are given, thus making it effectively irrelevant to an actual resistance.
 
comparing timestop to mind hax doesn't make sense at all, they are wildly different abilities and as such work in different ways

it's like comparing apples to potatoes
Both are hax abilities, and even then you didn't explain the actual difference for the purposes of the examples beyond saying so.
 
hax doesn't mean anything, it simply a term people use to call a strong ability. By that logic electricity manipulation and soul manipulation should work the same way
 
Verses with a time stop that's limited to a select area or target aren't unheard of, and it having a smaller AoE doesn't mean it's stronger or weaker by itself, for instance.

Exactly, mind manip, like any other hax, isn't bound to a number of targets regularly, not every case of mind manip involves the user passively (or actively) sustaining this effect, but rather just changing the way their mind work (Ex, some drug, or just forcing them to forget their will), and having an higher range doesn't necessarily turns it stronger as the OP explains with the example of time stop covering an area instead of the universe not necessarily becoming stronger, or vice-versa.

An statement would be required to claim that, an assumption would be required otherwise after all, and even then such raise in potency would be unquantificable if no further details are given, thus making it effectively irrelevant to an actual resistance.
Then those time stops are aoe limited. As long as they don't specifically have a number of people it can affect at once it still stop a single thing :time. Just in a more limited area and thus it would fall under range .
Yes range is meaningless to assess potency, as i said . controlling 1 mind right next to you or from across the universe is the same potency but different range.

But controling more minds means better mind control. Controlling 10 minds in a 10m area is stronger in potency than controlling 1 across the universe .
 
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even then you didn't explain the actual difference for the purposes of the examples beyond saying so.
there's nothing to explain, they simply ARE, just as much as you wouldn't call fire and water the same, those abilities have two different effects with different mechanics to them that affect two very different things
 
How would this affect 4-D potency?

Like mind haxing an infinite number of people at once, is that just baseline potency now without evidence that it can be "concentrated" on a single person?

Do you only need baseline resistance to resist it?
Mind haxing an infinite number of people isn't 4d
 
Higher dimensional mind hax should be treated the same way as it is right now since it's a not normal 3D mind that is being affected
 
hax doesn't mean anything, it simply a term people use to call a strong ability. By that logic electricity manipulation and soul manipulation should work the same way
"Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant."

Then those time stops are aoe limited. As long as they don't have a limit in the number of people they can affect in their area.
Yes range is meaningless to assess potency, as i said . controlling 1 mind right next to you or from across the universe is the same potency but different range.

But controling more minds means better mind control. Controlling 10 minds in a 10m area is stronger in potency than controlling 1 across the universe .
Except that if there's such a lack of limit to how many can be affected then there's no potency increase in the first place, unless now you want to claim that anyone that does Sleep Manipulation by singing now has exponentially higher potency the more people are subject to it, which is a fat no, as that would be like saying that a character's AP raises the more targets there are in the middle of its attack, which is unfounded at best, my point is that just a baseline mindhax is done by default regardless of the number of targets.

Depends on how the mindhax works, again, one thing is actively possessing others with your own will on their minds, another is some noise that drives them crazy, and even then it would be unquantificably above baseline at best, as chances are no statements would confirm such increase in potency, let alone to a measurable degree for our purposes. Needless to say, not all forms of mind manip require multitasking in the first place.
there's nothing to explain, they simply ARE, just as much as you wouldn't call fire and water the same, those abilities have two different effects with different mechanics to them that affect two very different things
Yes, both powers do very unrelated things, but the point is that there's no reason to arbitrarily pick mind manipulation as a power reliant on the number of targets then relate that number to an amount of resistance layers, that act is overall silly and out of standard with no good reason, I've already described before how this kind of act just doesn't work, using time stop as an example, you could change "time stop" here to Mind Manip, Fate Manip or several other kinds of hax abilities and the point would remain the same, as I'm relying on the semantics to how resistance scaling goes, not how the power itself affects a target, it's hax and all, so physical stats are irrelevant here unless you're higher-d.
 
Except that if there's such a lack of limit to how many can be affected then there's no potency increase in the first place, unless now you want to claim that anyone that does Sleep Manipulation by singing now has exponentially higher potency the more people are subject to it, which is a fat no, as that would be like saying that a character's AP raises the more targets there are in the middle of its attack, which is unfounded at best, my point is that just a baseline mindhax is done by default regardless of the number of targets.

Depends on how the mindhax works, again, one thing is actively possessing others with your own will on their minds, another is some noise that drives them crazy, and even then it would be unquantificably above baseline at best, as chances are no statements would confirm such increase in potency, let alone to a measurable degree for our purposes. Needless to say, not all forms of mind manip require multitasking in the first place.
Sleep manip is sub-set of mind manip , so yes it would . Being able to put to sleep multiple persons is better than being limited to putting 1.

If the hax have clearly stated in verse limitations , then sure , apply them. But all in all , More things controlled = more potency, it's common sense.

How would that be Unquantifiable ? Mind haxxing 10 persons without resistance is 10x better than mind haxxing 1 without resistance. Lifting ten 1kg rocks is better than lifting a single 1kg rock. Common sense .
 
Sleep manip is sub-set of mind manip , so yes it would . Being able to put to sleep multiple persons is better than being limited to putting 1.

If the hax have clearly stated in verse limitations , then sure , apply them. But all in all , More things controlled = more potency, it's common sense.

How would that be Unquantifiable ? Mind haxxing 10 persons without resistance is 10x better than mind haxxing 1 without resistance. Lifting ten 1kg rocks is better than lifting a single 1kg rock. Common sense .
While it's better and all, how many it affects isn't related to the potency, again, it's just range.

Common sense isn't an argument, and in fact we default to the negative, and so the negative of more things being controlled not translating to more potency would thus apply here.

Simple, hax and AP aren't measured in the same way, raw numbers multiplying a hax ability do not mean that it can now bypass the same amount of resistance layers without far more details to claim that.
 
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Yes, both powers do very unrelated things, but the point is that there's no reason to arbitrarily pick mind manipulation as a power reliant on the number of targets then relate that number to an amount of resistance layers, that act is overall silly and out of standard with no good reason, I've already described before how this kind of act just doesn't work, using time stop as an example, you could change "time stop" here to Mind Manip, Fate Manip or several other kinds of hax abilities and the point would remain the same, as I'm relying on the semantics to how resistance scaling goes, not how the power itself affects a target, it's hax and all, so physical stats are irrelevant here unless you're higher-d.
It's not

Time manipulation, fate manipulat and other akin don't work by numbers because they aren't affecting single entities, they are affecting parts of a whole (Time/Fate/ect), which is more akin to precision.

Meanwhile mind/soul manipulationg work by affecting the being themselves, they have to affect an increesing amount of mental/soul mass.

Also, calling using numbers in some cases is arbitrary is nonsense because it's the same as saying using numbers for electricity and heat resistance is arbitrary
 
It's not

Time manipulation, fate manipulat and other akin don't work by numbers because they aren't affecting single entities, they are affecting parts of a whole (Time/Fate/ect), which is more akin to precision.

Meanwhile mind/soul manipulationg work by affecting the being themselves, they have to affect an increesing amount of mind/soul mass.

Also, calling using numbers in some cases is arbitrary is nonsense because it's the same as saying using numbers for electricity and heat resistance is arbitrary
I mean, so does matter manip and we focus on the level of matter being manipulated (molecule, atom, quantum...), not how much matter is manipulated, and even then cases that target the time, fate, etc of a particular target aren't unheard of, and even then cases with a "worse" or "focused" range aren't necessarily stronger or weaker than a "universal" one.

Often the mind/soul manip doesn't even interact with the target in a way that would fall as physical like Electricity and Fire manip do, in fact, Fire Manip doesn't ignore durability to begin with currently, why do you think some characters have high tiers out of enduring high temperatures or explosions? Electricity Manip is a funny case as while it can also be measured for AP, it is capable of also ignoring durability out of disrupting the internals of a body, but even then that one requires an specified voltage or so as far I recall for it to be treated like that, otherwise it just doesn't ignore dura either, so overall those are bad examples.
 
While it's better and all, how many it affects isn't related to the potency, again, it's just range.

Common sense isn't an argument, and in fact we default to the negative, and so the negative of more things being controlled not translating to more potency would thus apply here.

Simple, hax and AP aren't measured in the same way, raw numbers multiplying a hax ability do not mean that it can now bypass the same amount of resistance layers without far more details to claim that.
it's not range . Characther A have two opponents and can only mind hax one, no matter how close or far they are. Characther B have two opponents and can mind hax both. None of the opponents have any feat of mind hax resistance.

Characther B have the stronger mind hax because it overpowered two mind instead of one.

We apparently don't because we use the common sense aproach : more mind haxxed = more potency. You're the one who want to make things a mess by saying that mind haxxing 1 mind is the same as infinite mind.

Range have nothing to with the number of minds you can affect. A characther may be able to affect a single mind across the whole universe but it's still a single mind. Any characther being able to mind hax 2 person will have a superior mind hax potency ,even if they can only mind hax in a 10 m radius around them.

Get it ? One have universal range but a potency of 1. The other have a rnage of 10m but a potency of two. It's REALLY simple to understand .
 
It'll all depend on how the verse works, there surely are some where controlling more people is directly related to the power. You can't really make a rule to compare wildly different systems, if one uses numbers and the other uses layers, titles, and such, then there isn't much you can do.
 
So a character who lets say can mind hax a whole city of people, would be assumed to have the same potency of a character who has been shown to only mindhax a single person?

Am I just misunderstanding this or nah?
 
it's not range . Characther A have two opponents and can only mind hax one, no matter how close or far they are. Characther B have two opponents and can mind hax both. None of the opponents have any feat of mind hax resistance.

Characther B have the stronger mind hax because it overpowered two mind instead of one.

We apparently don't because we use the common sense aproach : more mind haxxed = more potency. You're the one who want to make things a mess by saying that mind haxxing 1 mind is the same as infinite mind.

Range have nothing to with the number of minds you can affect. A characther may be able to affect a single mind across the whole universe but it's still a single mind. Any characther being able to mind hax 2 person will have a superior mind hax potency ,even if they can only mind hax in a 10 m radius around them.

Get it ? One have universal range but a potency of 1. The other have a rnage of 10m but a potency of two. It's REALLY simple to understand .
That varies on how the mind hax works, again, but the thing is that not all forms of mindhax are actively/passively sustained in the first place and just affect the target, not every verse even bothers explaining how the mind hax works beyond it just doing so. Character B can have the same level of mindhax as A if it was based on, for example, making those within an area hear something, in such case the limitation would be the range, and not how many people are around, nor the potency to begin with.

And that's just a faulty idea which we're here to change in the first place, an amount of people and an amount of resistance layers don't correlate as I've said before, at best this is just unquantificably higher, but for our purposes it won't bypass a baseline resistance as no resistance was shown to be bypassed in the first place.

Exactly, range is irrelevant to measuring a hax ability's potency, and only in a case where it's actively being sustained would really qualify as a case where mindhaxing more people is more impressive than doing so to a single one. Otherwise it's like claiming that a disease spreading to millions also has the potency of millions to a single individual, which isn't the case at all.

So a character who lets say can mind hax a whole city of people, would be assumed to have the same potency of a character who has been shown to only mindhax a single person?

Am I just misunderstanding this or nah?
By default, yes
 
I assumed we more or less already did case-by-case since the last time this was brought up. Then again, I think the last thread might have been regarding soul hax 🤔

But yeah, one must take mechanics into account. For some mind hax the number is a meaningful metric, for other it isn't. If it isn't, one has to look at things like how many levels of resistance it can overcome or whatever other metrics the verse might offer.
It can get hard to compare resistance potency vs mind hax potency that way, but it certainly makes more sense.
 
What about if one of the characters is strictly shown to have a limit of 1 at a time whereas the other character can mind control significantly more people to the same degree?
The ones that can mindhax more than one in a fashion that is "direct" (aka, actively/passively imposing some power, rather than just doing soemthing that keeps them mindhaxed anyways like the example of the noise) could be above the potency of the one that only can do a single one, but the amount would be unquantificable, nor would it bypass a baseline resistance by default.
 
If it's a magic word that rewires people's brains, or a pheromone that charms them, then obviously numbers won't matter, but just bog-standard telepathy and such shouldn't be treated the same.
 
nope, according to Bobiscan , mind haxxing 1 person is the same as mind haxxing infinite ammount of people .
As I've said, how it's done is also relevant, but if it's just with an indirect way with next to no involvement from the user afterwards, the potency is about the same regardless of number.
 
Passive effect definitively aren't more potent the more individuals it affects, the user doesn't put any effort into the power nor its manipulating every single mental function of the targets, the effect simply induces charm, fear, lust, etc; as I said, the power wouldn't suddly scale or decrease in power retroactively the more individuals it haxxes.
 
I think a good portion of staff members and regular users alike already agree, so I think we could proceed into talking about how to implement it.

Maybe a note on the Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation could be added, or some note on the Resistance page instead.
 
If they already overcame resistances, then they were already OP.

We giga nerf 99% of the characther that need those type of hax to win their battle and gigabuff the characther that already didn't care about resistances anyway .

Any characther with the slighest bit of resistance will now no sell infinite potency mind hax . What a joke .
 
It's his EE that makes him "powerful", not his mind hax that affected like 5 people at once

Darth Nihilus and the rest of Star Wars take a fat L from this, especially if the soul manip version is applied as well.
No his mind manipulation was upgraded to multiversal range, his EE is extremely out of character, I don't even think it exists.
 
This is probably going to result in the removal of a lot of matches that were added to profiles due to the new standards.
 
Darth Nihilus and the rest of Star Wars take a fat L from this, especially if the soul manip version is applied as well.
If the soul manip change happens does that mean "soul crush gg" is no longer a thing for bleach to almost anyone with resistance to soul manip?
 
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