Minato's AP should be upgraded

[LordTracer]

I love how people like scaling inside Naruto's head as if Naruto wasn't in there with a soul while flying.

Hey, if we use stuff in Naruto’s head, then we can use base Naruto harming Minato

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I love how people like scaling inside Naruto's head as if Naruto wasn't in there with a soul while flying.

Obviously it's a weird fight, but that doesn't mean any old hand would block a bijuudama.

Hey, if we use stuff in Naruto’s head, then we can use base Naruto harming Minato

That's even more out there, since that was just Minato's essence versus the actual nine tails.
Actually you're right, Base Naruto has 6-C AP, that'd explain why his rasenshuriken could kill Kakuzu who withstood a bijuudama

 

[KingTempest]

Obviously it's a weird fight, but that doesn't mean any old hand would block a bijuudama.

Naruto hurt Kurama with a single rasenshuriken. We don't have 6-B SM Naruto. Inside Naruto's head doesn't look valid

Hey, if we use stuff in Naruto’s head, then we can use base Naruto harming Minato

Valid

 

[Purgy]

Didn't Gyuki's head also deflate like a balloon from the Bijudama? Not sure if anything that happened in there should be accepted.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Naruto hurt Kurama with a single rasenshuriken. We don't have 6-B SM Naruto. Inside Naruto's head doesn't look valid

Valid

To be fair, that barely hurt him. It only sort of ruffled his fur. And also the Rasenshuriken is wayyyyyyy stronger than normal Naruto. kcm is stronger than SM but still, the fact that a fatigued kcm Naruto clone's rasenshuriken could cause pretty deep cuts on the third Raikage's skin who has Bijuu level durability is telling. It's consistent with SM Naruto causing minor damage to Kurama. If he had completely put Kurama out of comission yeah that'd be an outlier but even after all the massive rasengan attacks and rasenshurikens and having his chakra stolen, Kurama was still pretty fine and could still make a massive bijuudama.

lowkey

Didn't Gyuki's head also deflate like a balloon from the Bijudama? Not sure if anything that happened in there should be accepted.

It did, but why is that not valid? Bee has incredible control over the partial transformation. Him being able to do stuff like that irl isn't out of the question.

 

[LordTracer]

Actually you're right, Base Naruto has 6-C AP, that'd explain why his rasenshuriken could kill Kakuzu who withstood a bijuudama

Kakuzu never tanked a Bijuudama, he got crushed by Matatabi’s paw (which is not 6-C before the War Arc).

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Kakuzu never tanked a Bijuudama, he got crushed by Matatabi’s paw (which is not 6-C before the War Arc).

Well I was joking anyways (hence the crossed out part) but yeah you're actually right. Still kinda cool that he didn't die from being hit by even one of the weakest tailed beasts. Though I'm confused about what you mean by before the war arc. Bijuu don't get stronger, aside from having a host who amplifies their power, but that already happened in the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu.

 

[LordTracer]

Though I'm confused about what you mean by before the war arc. Bijuu don't get stronger, aside from having a host who amplifies their power, but that already happened in the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu.

It is accepted here that the Two-Tails through Seven-Tails are not Tier 6 prior to the War Arc. Hell, Gyūki might not even be accepted as Tier 6 prior to the War Arc.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Oh great. We are in the process of changing Bijū's durability to something else, not "6-C to Low 6-B", so yeah, even if you get this accepted, and depending on the new rating, Minato will not be much higher than he will be after the revisions (High 7-A)

 

[Shadyboi0]

How is a half meter mini tail the same as the actual tentacle of Gyuki?

But it was larger than Minato too. Even in the biggest shots of Gyuki the tails look less than twice people's heights. Very different from the exponential difference between the edo jinchuriki tails and their full bodies.

Like I said, it does look bigger in the full shots, but it's not an exponential obvious difference like with the edo jinchuriki, so it's not enough to prove those tails are weaker.

If he tried to cut Gyuki in half, he would just interrupt him with a tail whip or a bijuudama or something, but if Gyuki simply stood still and let Sasuke do it, he could be cut in half.

tier 6 Taka sasuke inbound

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

It did, but why is that not valid? Bee has incredible control over the partial transformation. Him being able to do stuff like that irl isn't out of the question.

A. It's not real, or else base and SM Naruto would scale to Kurama, which I think we can all collectively agree makes no degree of sense.

B. The difference in power between Gyūki and Kurama has been well-established. Gyūki is superior to the other Bijū, but not by any significant margin given the fact that they can still harm him. Kurama on the other hand is hilariously superior to the rest since he can allow Naruto to:

• send five incoming Bijū Bombs flying
• Easily knock down 5 Bijū simultaneously, and effortlessly manhandled them.
• Match the combined, charged, Bijū bomb of five Bijū without even charging his own.

Simply put, the events that took place in Naruto's head are heavily contradictory to the actual feats of the characters, as well as their established scaling, and as such shouldn't be used AT ALL.

 

[Damage3245]

Can someone give me a TL;DR on what the consensus is here?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Can someone give me a TL;DR on what the consensus is here?

Basically the OP is aiming to upgrade Minato to 6-C via scaling Bee's partial transformation to Gyūki's full tentacles.
Myself and others such as Tempest, Tracer, and Purgy have already countered that point, and I feel adequately debunked the premise.

 

[Damage3245]

Basically the OP is aiming to upgrade Minato to 6-C via scaling Bee's partial transformation to Gyūki's full tentacles.
Myself and others such as Tempest, Tracer, and Purgy have already countered that point, and I feel adequately debunked the premise.

Yeah, looking through the counters now.

I agree that the evidence doesn't look strong enough for Minato to scale to 6-C.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It is accepted here that the Two-Tails through Seven-Tails are not Tier 6 prior to the War Arc. Hell, Gyūki might not even be accepted as Tier 6 prior to the War Arc.

Wha? Then why would they be the most valuable military weapons to the villages if they weren't stronger than the kage? And also does that mean the third Raikage will be downgraded too?

Oh great. We are in the process of changing Bijū's durability to something else, not "6-C to Low 6-B", so yeah, even if you get this accepted, and depending on the new rating, Minato will not be much higher than he will be after the revisions (High 7-A)

But Gyuki tanked his bijuudama.

A. It's not real, or else base and SM Naruto would scale to Kurama, which I think we can all collectively agree makes no degree of sense.

B. The difference in power between Gyūki and Kurama has been well-established. Gyūki is superior to the other Bijū, but not by any significant margin given the fact that they can still harm him. Kurama on the other hand is hilariously superior to the rest since he can allow Naruto to:

• send five incoming Bijū Bombs flying
• Easily knock down 5 Bijū simultaneously, and effortlessly manhandled them.
• Match the combined, charged, Bijū bomb of five Bijū without even charging his own.

Simply put, the events that took place in Naruto's head are heavily contradictory to the actual feats of the characters, as well as their established scaling, and as such shouldn't be used AT ALL.

Base Naruto didn't do anything to Kurama. SM Naruto did as much as could be expected from someone with the power to harm the third raikage.

It was stated that jinchuriki in control of their tailed beasts are stronger than the tailed beasts individually.

Yeah, looking through the counters now.

I agree that the evidence doesn't look strong enough for Minato to scale to 6-C.

What do you think about a possibly?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Base Naruto didn't do anything to Kurama. SM Naruto did as much as could be expected from someone with the power to harm the third raikage.

Naruto did absolutely nothing to the Third Raikage, he simply redirected his attack by shifting his momentum at the very last second, which caused the Raikage to damage himself.
Naruto failed to do any meaningful damage to the Raikage even in KCM, a stronger form.

It was stated that jinchuriki in control of their tailed beasts are stronger than the tailed beasts individually.

Okay? Not sure how that's relevant. Are you implying that base B is stronger than Gyūki? Or that KCM Naruto is stronger than Kurama?

All we know is that Bijū are unquantifiably stronger when their power is contained and focused within a Jinchūriki, that's it.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Even then, I would say that Bijū thing doesn't even apply to Kurama to begin with because he's not dumb like the other Bijū. He's like Unironically one of the smarter characters in the verse.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Naruto did absolutely nothing to the Third Raikage, he simply redirected his attack by shifting his momentum at the very last second, which caused the Raikage to damage himself.
Naruto failed to do any meaningful damage to the Raikage even in KCM, a stronger form.

Okay? Not sure how that's relevant. Are you implying that base B is stronger than Gyūki? Or that KCM Naruto is stronger than Kurama?

All we know is that Bijū are unquantifiably stronger when their power is contained and focused within a Jinchūriki, that's it.

Well, to be fair, Naruto did fight Kurama.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Well, to be fair, Naruto did fight Kurama.

You mean in his mind scape?

 

[LordTracer]

Well, to be fair, Naruto did fight Kurama.

In his head.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Naruto did absolutely nothing to the Third Raikage, he simply redirected his attack by shifting his momentum at the very last second, which caused the Raikage to damage himself.
Naruto failed to do any meaningful damage to the Raikage even in KCM, a stronger form.

Okay? Not sure how that's relevant. Are you implying that base B is stronger than Gyūki? Or that KCM Naruto is stronger than Kurama?

All we know is that Bijū are unquantifiably stronger when their power is contained and focused within a Jinchūriki, that's it.

idk, looks like quite a bit of damage to me. Would've been really relevant damage if he was alive and Naruto wasn't a clone.

No but you're saying since BM Naruto is 5x Bijuu level Kurama is 5x Bijuu level too, and that's not true.

Also means that inside Naruto's body Kurama's small bijuudama being caught by Gyuki isn't out of the realm of possibility.

 

[Damage3245]

Just want to say, the other Biju aren't dumb either. The reason they are treated as inferior is because Shinobi don't respect them as individuals and treat them as mindless beasts who need their power to be focused by a Jinchuriki.

The one that best fits this description is actually the Juubi.

But in general simply being inside of a Jinchuriki isn't going to raise a Biju's power level.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Even then, I would say that Bijū thing doesn't even apply to Kurama to begin with because he's not dumb like the other Bijū. He's like Unironically one of the smarter characters in the verse.

He still seems to throw around his power like other Bijuu though. That's what was described with JJs and why they're much more powerful than just the Juubi

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Just want to say, the other Biju aren't dumb either. The reason they are treated as inferior is because Shinobi don't respect them as individuals and treat them as mindless beasts who need their power to be focused by a Jinchuriki.

The one that best fits this description is actually the Juubi.

But in general simply being inside of a Jinchuriki isn't going to raise a Biju's power level.

concentrating the power still makes sense since Bijuu seem to only attack with bijuudama body attacks and maybe one special technique. Also since in BM it's the combination of the jinchuriki and bijuus' power it probably is stronger by default because of that.

 

[KingTempest]

concentrating the power still makes sense since Bijuu seem to only attack with bijuudama body attacks and maybe one special technique.

Naruto and Bee do the same exact thing

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

idk, looks like quite a bit of damage to me. Would've been really relevant damage if he was alive and Naruto wasn't a clone.

I mean, in that same scan Naruto himself says the Rasenshuriken didn't work. And no, for an attack that negates durability, it barely did any superficial damage. Plus, this is KCM Naruto, so what does that even have to do with Sage Mode Naruto?
Also, Naruto's clones have comparable AP to him. They always have. The only area where they're inferior is durability.

No but you're saying since BM Naruto is 5x Bijuu level Kurama is 5x Bijuu level too, and that's not true.

It is true, because the "Jinchūriki amp" is something completely unquantifiable, and honestly might not even be a thing in the first place like Damage said.

Also means that inside Naruto's body Kurama's small bijuudama being caught by Gyuki isn't out of the realm of possibility.

It is.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Naruto and Bee do the same exact thing

Bee sort of does, but Naruto doesn't. Also again the fact that their chakra combines makes their power more potent.

I mean, in that same scan Naruto himself says the Rasenshuriken didn't work. And no, for an attack that negates durability, it barely did any superficial damage. Plus, this is KCM Naruto, so what does that even have to do with Sage Mode Naruto?
Also, Naruto's clones have comparable AP to him. They always have. The only area where they're inferior is durability.

It is true, because the "Jinchūriki amp" is something completely unquantifiable, and honestly might not even be a thing in the first place like Damage said.

It is.

Because it didn't do enough damage for Ay to be restrained. You can literally see all the wounds though. That is damage. Also kcm is stronger, but it's not another world apart. Yes Naruto said he's way stronger than when he fought Pain, but War Arc SM Naruto is also way stronger than Pain Arc SM Naruto given feats.

How do they have comparable AP? Was it ever shown that they both attacked someone and did the same damage? Other than part 1 where shadow clones supposedly divided chakra evenly and made them all weaker.

There's nothing that says Jinchuriki being stronger is wrong later on.

The small bijuudama is much weaker than the one Kurama used to counter 5 other bijuudama. It's barely as large as his head versus the one he used that dwarfed his body.

That would explain why Gyuki could catch it even if 50% Kurama at full power is 5x bijuu level.

 

[KingTempest]

Bee sort of does, but Naruto doesn't. Also again the fact that their chakra combines makes their power more potent.

They don't combine their chakra, at all. The only time we see them literally combine their chakra is Baryon mode. All Naruto does is use his chakra.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They don't combine their chakra, at all. The only time we see them literally combine their chakra is Baryon mode. All Naruto does is use his chakra.

He still has access to his chakra.

 

[KingTempest]

He still has access to his chakra.

Access to his chakra ≠ combining chakra.
He has access to his chakra w/ 1 tail. Is 1 tail > Kurama now?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Because it didn't do enough damage for Ay to be restrained. You can literally see all the wounds though. That is damage.

Chip damage at best, and again has absolutely nothing to do with Sage Mode regardless.

Also kcm is stronger, but it's not another world apart. Yes Naruto said he's way stronger than when he fought Pain, but War Arc SM Naruto is also way stronger than Pain Arc SM Naruto given feats.

What feats, exactly, put War arc SM Naruto above his Pain arc self? There's absolutely no indication, statement, or feat that even remotely implies this.

How do they have comparable AP? Was it ever shown that they both attacked someone and did the same damage? Other than part 1 where shadow clones supposedly divided chakra evenly and made them all weaker.

Splitting chakra =/= splitting AP, or else whenever Naruto makes 100s of clones he'd be getting 100s of times weaker, which is just not the case.

He could contend with Madara and Kaguya using his clones, that alone says enough.

There's nothing that says Jinchuriki being stronger is wrong later on.

And there's not enough support for it either, since the supposed reason for Jinchūriki being more powerful is objectively wrong. The Bijū are NOT mindless beasts that can't control their power. We saw that during the fight with Sage Madara, and a big portion of the war arc was dedicated to Naruto learning that they have distinct personalities, names, emotions, histories, abilities, etc.

The small bijuudama is much weaker than the one Kurama used to counter 5 other bijuudama. It's barely as large as his head versus the one he used that dwarfed his body.

That would explain why Gyuki could catch it even if 50% Kurama at full power is 5x bijuu level.

I mean, sure, but that means nothing since, again, it's unquantifiably weaker than his full power. Still, something being plausible doesn't make it true. This is all still in Naruto's head, and is not consistent with later showings and feats.

 

[KingTempest]

Pain arc and the war were a few days apart. I see no reason for an AP boost

 

[Kin201]

IIRC it is because War Arc Sage Mode Naruto can create a bigger Rasenshuriken.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

IIRC it is because War Arc Sage Mode Naruto can create a bigger Rasenshuriken.

That's a different technique all together. The big one is a Chou Odama Rasenshuriken, but that doesn't mean Sage Mode now suddenly offers Naruto a greater amp randomly.
It's the same thing as base Naruto using a Chou Odama Rasengan vs a regular Rasengan, it has no bearing on his physical stats.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Access to his chakra ≠ combining chakra.
He has access to his chakra w/ 1 tail. Is 1 tail > Kurama now?

That is an incredibly faulty comparison, since that's a tiny portion of Kurama's chakra plus Naruto. Whereas BM is Naruto plus all of 50% Kurama's chakra.

Chip damage at best, and again has absolutely nothing to do with Sage Mode regardless.

What feats, exactly, put War arc SM Naruto above his Pain arc self? There's absolutely no indication, statement, or feat that even remotely implies this.

Splitting chakra =/= splitting AP, or else whenever Naruto makes 100s of clones he'd be getting 100s of times weaker, which is just not the case.

He could contend with Madara and Kaguya using his clones, that alone says enough.

And there's not enough support for it either, since the supposed reason for Jinchūriki being more powerful is objectively wrong. The Bijū are NOT mindless beasts that can't control their power. We saw that during the fight with Sage Madara, and a big portion of the war arc was dedicated to Naruto learning that they have distinct personalities, names, emotions, histories, abilities, etc.

I mean, sure, but that means nothing since, again, it's unquantifiably weaker than his full power. Still, something being plausible doesn't make it true. This is all still in Naruto's head, and is not consistent with later showings and feats.

No not chip damage. If he couldn't regenerate that would slow anyone down quite a bit. You saw the size of those marks and burns didn't you?

Doing mild damage to Kurama, being able to push the fourth Raikage's arm, destroy the deep forest emergence (admittedly with chakra from Kurama, but that didn't give him red chakra or anything, it just looked like a stamina restoration, his rasenshuriken made Madara say it had too much energy, when he lated absorbed stuff like particle style with no such comments, could do damage to Juubito even if it was offguard Juubito, and just the fact that Naruto had time to train obviously means he got stronger.

Well there's a reason his hundreds of clones never did anything other than to fodder Mizuki. Kimimaro mopped KM1 clones neg diff, Neji mopped dozens of clones neg diff, Sasuke mopped like 10 neg diff, etc.

In part 2 shadow clones were portrayed as stronger, especially when only using a few like against Madara, and Kaguya easily dealt with the clones anyways.

The fact that the 2 perfect jinchuriki were the strongest by a fair margin in Bee's case and a large margin in Kurama's case implies it is still a boost.

At least you agree it's plausible now. Also it's not unquantifiably weaker. From 100% Kurama a similar sized TBB could destroy Hashirama's wood dragon and he needed a wood golem to catch it. So 50% Kurama's TBB should be about half as strong as that. And so since that was a partial transformation and Minato cut through a partial transformation, if the dream battle is valid, that proves Minato does indeed have Bijuu level AP.

 

[LordTracer]

So can this be closed already? The premise of the thread has been rejected by virtually everyone and seems to have derailed into other topics.

 

[Kin201]

He also improved his Sage Mode to the point that he could throw 3 FRS before losing the mode. If it worth something though.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Pain arc and the war were a few days apart. I see no reason for an AP boost

He must've trained on the ride to turtle island and trained with Bee. It was training in kcm but training in general makes you stronger.

IIRC it is because War Arc Sage Mode Naruto can create a bigger Rasenshuriken.

Oh yeah he did make a massive rasenshuriken that Hashirama thought could take down Edo Madara.

That's a different technique all together. The big one is a Chou Odama Rasenshuriken, but that doesn't mean Sage Mode now suddenly offers Naruto a greater amp randomly.
It's the same thing as base Naruto using a Chou Odama Rasengan vs a regular Rasengan, it has no bearing on his physical stats.

SM Naruto is ranked as High 7-A because of his rasenshuriken's strength so it does matter.

So can this be closed already? The premise of the thread has been rejected by virtually everyone and seems to have derailed into other topics.

It's been rejected, but it hasn't been disproved. I've literally been getting closer to proving Minato does have Bijuu level AP by validifying the Kurama fight.

 

[KingTempest]

That is an incredibly faulty comparison, since that's a tiny portion of Kurama's chakra plus Naruto.

They never added chakra, Naruto just used Kurama's in place of his.

Whereas BM is Naruto plus all of 50% Kurama's chakra.

Naruto plus all of Kurama's chakra, both halves combined.

He must've trained on the ride to turtle island and trained with Bee. It was training in kcm but training in general makes you stronger.

No proof of the former. The latter "training" was him in his brain.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They never added chakra, Naruto just used Kurama's in place of his.

Naruto plus all of Kurama's chakra, both halves combined.

No proof of the former. The latter "training" was him in his brain.

Proof?

? He didn't get Minato's half of Kurama until after the war.

Training is his thing though. He trains really hard. Also he trained after getting kcm physically.