Mikoto Misaka vs Tsunayoshi Sawada

[Mand21]

It (Extraordinary Genius) does mean she will plan her actions enough to never create an easy breach in her defenses for Tsuna to attack through. Besides, Mikoto's stamina lasts for literally days with barely any rest. Can Tsuna battle for days? No, he can't. He can "battle for long periods of time", which may as well be just a few hours or not even that. Trying to tire down Mikoto will feel to him like trying to tire down Android 18: he'll be exhausted even while trying to fight economically, while she won't have broken a sweat yet. And when that happens, his 20x AP advantage will no longer be significant.

Does his flame instantly melt down iron, or is it a more over time exposure? Because if so, she can still parry individual attacks. I don't know how magnetic iron still is when molten, but if she can keep control of it then, it's even worse for Tsuna, but let's say she'd have to focus on dodging: she can camp him out by staying out of his range.

She'll be the one to tire Tsuna down and then heavily attack him until he's down. Not the opposite.

And yeah, trying to absorb an overheated coin like a non-solid attack will probably cause him serious damage.

 

[XDragnoir]

the only time I remember seeing Tsuna melting iron was the end of the fight between Lambo and Levi, it took less than 10 seconds for him to melt her, but he had to hold the iron bar with both hands

 

[Jman88933]

It (Extraordinary Genius) does mean she will plan her actions enough to never create an easy breach in her defenses for Tsuna to attack through. Besides, Mikoto's stamina lasts for literally days with barely any rest. Can Tsuna battle for days? No, he can't. He can "battle for long periods of time", which may as well be just a few hours or not even that. Trying to tire down Mikoto will feel to him like trying to tire down Android 18: he'll be exhausted even while trying to fight economically, while she won't have broken a sweat yet. And when that happens, his 20x AP advantage will no longer be significant.
Does his flame instantly melt down iron, or is it a more over time exposure? Because if so, she can still parry individual attacks. I don't know how magnetic iron still is when molten, but if she can keep control of it then, it's even worse for Tsuna, but let's say she'd have to focus on dodging: she can camp him out by staying out of his range.

She'll be the one to tire Tsuna down and then heavily attack him until he's down. Not the opposite.

And yeah, trying to absorb an overheated coin like a non-solid attack will probably cause him serious damage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I recall, from watching A Certani Scientific Railgun S, in Misaka's fight with Mugino Shizuri, she was having a rough time because her electric energy was running out? And that was from a single night of Misaka invading a science lab building.

 

[XDragnoir]

In fact, she was invading laboratories for 3 consecutive days if I'm not mistaken, without sleeping at any time between them, then faced Frenda and then Mugino, and Mikoto's electricity is recharged when she sleeps, which means she can stay for at least 1 full day only using attacks with 100% power (1,000,000,000 volts).

 

[Xanxussama1010]

I don't think that Tsuna will confuse about Misaka's lightning and Dying Will Flame. Or even if he is trying to absorb at first. His Hyper Intuition should warn him to avoid it instead.

Tsuna used to generate flame barrier to protect his comrades like this

Keep battleing and keep dodging are different. Like I already said, Tsuna is master on dynamic control his Dying Will Flame and know the best way to move while use less energy. That's will make him can hold a fight longer. Or even in the case that Misaka still has advantage in stamina. Tsuna should be able to realize it and can chose to fly away from her and play hide and seek game which give him some time to rest.

 

[XDragnoir]

I was referring to the Railgun, not the lightning, but your intuition should warn Tsuna.

I do not remember a time when tsuna preferred to run away, so I do not know if he would choose that, and if he chooses, Mikoto has two things that can help: have knowledge about the terrain and its radar.

 

[Mand21]

I don't think that Tsuna will confuse about Misaka's lightning and Dying Will Flame. Or even if he is trying to absorb at first. His Hyper Intuition should warn him to avoid it instead.
Tsuna used to generate flame barrier to protect his comrades like this

Keep battleing and keep dodging are different. Like I already said, Tsuna is master on dynamic control his Dying Will Flame and know the best way to move while use less energy. That's will make him can hold a fight longer. Or even in the case that Misaka still has advantage in stamina. Tsuna should be able to realize it and can chose to fly away from her and play hide and seek game which give him some time to rest.

Mikoto has the advantage in stamina. There are also different types of battle for trying to defeat your opponent and trying to tire him down by forcing him to keep wasting more energy than you, not that it matters. The fact Tsuna has a greater stamina thanks to a cool and smart skill he developed doesn't give him an advantage if Mikoto was fully active through three entire days. She wasn't just battling with her powers, but running around, intruding herself in labs and taking down sentries with her full might. Yes, she has the advantage.

Playing the hide and seek game won't help Tsuna. He might end up wasting even more energy to fly while dodging Mikoto's attacks, not to mention she can run after him and that will allow her to keep getting closer to him if she wants, or keep him into her range with less effort. Why? Because speed statistics are vectorial (velocity), which means if he's flying up and away from her in order to get into the sky, then he's not using all of his speed to fly away from her horizontally, meaning that running towards him from the ground and summoning cloud-to-ground lightning if he gets too close to the clouds to dodge will be to Misaka's benefit. Trying to camp her out should only be tried with teleportation abilities, not flying to evade an opponent who can summon lightning from clouds.

You're already starting to stretch this to force an advantage for Tsuna more than his known AP and Durability advantage. Don't do that. =/ Mikoto clearly wins. It's a high difficulty battle? Yeah, it is. She'll be forced to battle with him for the rest of the day. But when he tiers down, she wins. As I said, it's like trying to face an android from DBZ or a melee with Ainz Ooal Gown. Even if they're at a great disadvantage, all they have to do is keep attacking and avoid getting damage until their enemy's stamina runs out... and then keep attacking and further punishing their enemy until damage accumulates far too much.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I recall, from watching A Certani Scientific Railgun S, in Misaka's fight with Mugino Shizuri, she was having a rough time because her electric energy was running out? And that was from a single night of Misaka invading a science lab building.

No, it was after three days of doing that all day through.

I was referring to the Railgun, not the lightning, but your intuition should warn Tsuna.
I do not remember a time when tsuna preferred to run away, so I do not know if he would choose that, and if he chooses, Mikoto has two things that can help: have knowledge about the terrain and its radar.

Oh, I see. Well, in any way, Tsuna's intuition warning him to pick a different choice will only help further Misaka's plan of "keep attacking and dodging until he gets tired from doing his own attacking, defending and dodging", which is... what he's gonna do. If he tries to defend it's really just a critical hit.


The votes are, at the present moment... Mand21 and Veloxt1r0kore for Mikoto...

...and XDragnoir and Xanxussama1010 to Tsuna?

 

[Xanxussama1010]

Hmm... Just because I think different from you and you tell me that I stretch this to force an advantage? Haa...

Anyway, still vote for Tsuna. He still has mobility advantage and has experience on faced opponents who have advantage in range before. Misaka still be a glass cannon and her attack except lightning strike can't really do any damage to him. Tsuna can move, dodge her attack, generate barrier and keep come close until he one-shot her.

 

[John985]

I think mikoto has the experience to be honest, she fought a 7-A saint, and survive. Voting for Mikoto.

 

[Mand21]

Hmm... Just because I think different from you and you tell me that I stretch this to force an advantage? Haa...
Anyway, still vote for Tsuna. He still has mobility advantage and has experience on faced opponents who have advantage in range before. Misaka still be a glass cannon and her attack except lightning strike can't really do any damage to him. Tsuna can move, dodge her attack, generate barrier and keep come close until he one-shot her.

No. It was because you made an OOC statement to give your character an advantage. Sorry, I didn't mean it as an insult: I said you were stretching when you made your character do something he wouldn't in order to get an edge. Meanwhile, Tsuna scales to an attack that's low-end 7-C, so there's nothing stopping all of Mikoto's attacks from doing small amounts of damage, like I said. Not to mention Railgun is her special attack, so in a way it scales to her greatest results. (I can do a CRT on that if you want).

And like I said, Mikoto will keep him at max range and try to camp him out. She'll see what he's trying to do and avoid it, trying to come close will only reduce Tsuna's reaction time, making him more prone to taking hits until she backs off again.

I agree that Tsuna's physical advantage is quite massive, but a range disadvantage is capable of overcoming that, period. A medieval soldier with 9-C+ super strength and baseline 9-B armor may lose to a 10-A counterpart who's shooting arrows from a 200 meters distance, and even if the soldier has a greater mobility, it will take a lot more than a sprint to close in if the archer keeps running away, thus the wounds and bruises he takes will accumulate and make him weaker when he finally gets to close range and the archer needs to draw his sidearm short sword... and too bad for the knight if the archer is an undead skeleton who keeps getting away without ever tiring down, which is pretty much what this battle looks like.

 

[Xanxussama1010]

And I already said that the gap between 8-A and low-end 7-C are around 20x for least case. Which is didn't even make a scratch. And yes, do a CRT if you think it's wrong. I just justify by her page.

And Misaka can do both dodge, keep her range and spam attacks wothout got any reduce on reaction time? I don't think they have a different on that.

 

[Mand21]

Yes, she can. Reaction time depends on distance and speed. If she is focusing on dodging and attacking with no possibility for tanking or defending, then she'll be able to dodge. Coming close to a projectile shooter means that dodging will become harder. That's basic stuff.

And no, 20x isn't quite enough not to make a scratch. When you think of it, a sword strike will cut right through a person's body and might even cut through bones at that, but even moving a duller knife lightly over the skin willl already make a cut or scratch. In the same way, a punch that puts your back in it will knock someone out, but a casual jab will already hurt. If enough pressure is applied on a soft spot, you can harm a person who's way stronger than you.

And also, that's wrong. The gap between the top of 8-A and baseline 7-C is 5.6x, although indeed the present figure looks more like 20x. But like I said, the tricks Misaka holds on her sleeve allow her to take the best of her range advantage and completely revert this AP stomp.

Gonna make the CRT.

 

[XDragnoir]

And I already said that the gap between 8-A and low-end 7-C are around 20x for least case. Which is didn't even make a scratch. And yes, do a CRT if you think it's wrong. I just justify by her page.

Maybe I have mistaken you or wrote something wrong, but the only things 8-A in Mikoto are your iron sand and your Railgun, your lightnings are 7C, so this 20x gap only applies to Railgun and Iron Sand.

Edit: @Mand21

I voted for Mikoto, not for Tsuna, maybe I said something to favor Tsuna, but I'm sure I voted for Mikoto.

 

[Mand21]

Mand21, XDragnoir and Veloxt1r0kore for Mikoto and Xanxussama1010 for Tsuna, then?

So, I guess we have a kinda solid case for Mikoto winning, high-diff? And pretty high-diff, given this is about outcamping her opponent for hours or days on end until he collapses under the weight of exhaustion and her attacks.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMO!!

 

[Mand21]

That's quite the odd bump.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Heee,what do you mean?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Mand21]

"Bumo" and all that

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMO!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUUMO!!

 

[Mand21]

Bumo is the new bump

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMI!!!

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Yeah, I think I'll also go with Tsuna here.

The 20x gap here means that Tsuna can casually swat away most of Mikoto's attacks. The AP of his flames is far above any of her 8-A attacks, so I fail to see why they wouldn't simply be dispersed on contact. The durability of his flames is far superior.

@Mand21

Speed is equalized, you just have to read the OP. In my response previous, I was asking for speed to be unequalized as, when I had checked at the time, there seemed to be a gap of only 2 or 3 times, in which case speed should be unequalized, as such a gap isn't large enough to blitz.

Regardless, it does seem like Mikoto has a rather large stamina advantage. But Tsuna should be plenty capable of freezing her railgun, seeing as how he could freeze Xanxus' (And later on, Byakuran's) attacks, which were superior to him. And many of her attacks can be dispelled merely by waving his hand, as such a motion literally creates a small barrier in front of himself.

Secondly, while Mikoto does have a large stamina advantage, it should be noted that she'll have to do put in far more energy and effort (like 10x as much), than Tsuna, which will do something to offset the stamina issue a bit.

This also doesn't remove the speculation that Tsuna may just be capable of absorbing the energetic form of Mikoto's electricity, which would do much to restore his stamina. And this doesn't factor in the reborn tactic, where after being knocked unconscious, he can literally become "reborn" with much of his stamina restored should he somehow be put down over a great period of time.

Seeing how she's only 10-A physically, literally anything Tsuna does would kill her. Like, say she dodges an attack that's too close to her, it's likely the flames from his fist alone would kill her. And I see no CQC abilities within her powers and abilities section, meaning that Tsuna should be able to land at least a grazing hit in close quarters. As all he really has to do is fly in, and consistently freeze, absorb, or dodge her attacks. Misaka would have to know of the large AP advantage to really be pressed to continuously run. But seeing as how Tsuna really only uses close up attacks to deal damage in his Varia arc form, it may work to his advantage, for if he engages in CQC, the battle should practically be his. Especially if he can absorb any of her lightning, and gain a speed advantage as well.

I certainly don't think it'll be easy for Tsuna, but I think everyone is severely downplaying the AP gap. Like, Mikoto can't do much of anything to Tsuna. How many scratches will it take to actually amount to real damage? And each of those scratches, is her using actual effort. Not to mention that Tsuna has ways to recover his stamina, and can even be reborn should be somehow be rendered unconscious, which seems very unlikely.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

-Tsuna: 2 (XXS,Teo)

-Mikoto: 3 (me,Mand,XDrag)

 

[Mand21]

She is 9-C, not 10-A, but I get where you're coming from. In any way, Misaka would kind of be pressed to continuously run regardless of the AP difference, since as you said, she can be killed by any attack from anyone relevant, even from her own verse, and thus she already knows she has to dodge everything that comes towards her. This part isn't an argument.

It's possible that Mikoto will not use a direct hit of lightning, given these seem to be her weak attacks, which makes sense when you factor that lightning and eletrical shocks are energy-inefficient in causing damage, but regardless, how does Tsuna's absorption work?

In any way, if she needs to make a several times greater effort to keep up, she will. The sheer stamina advantage, regardless of reborn mode, is great enough that Mikoto should be able to keep up with a heroic second wind from Tsuna should it only do that (double his endurance).

"How many scratches will it take to actually amount to real damage?" Not many. If I were to use a real life example, it would be like a knight in full plate armor and a two-handed sword fighting against a very nimble dagger and wooden shield user who is barely clothed to conserve stamina: the dagger user pretty much cannot cause damage as long as the plate armor user has energy to spare. Once the knight is exhausted, all the dagger user has to do is attack with now hard to parry blows at the weakest points of the human body (eyes, ears, the jugular) and the massive difference in power will be negated in an instant, even though it's also stomp-level to the point where a good strategy for knights is to rush against their enemies without caring about damage (since they won't take any significant damage, most of the time).

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I checked her profile before saying that. It says 10-A, but yes, the point is the same.

Also, I'm more familiar with Accelerator, Touma, and Misaka as opposed to their entire verse at large, so excuse any lack of knowledge that pertains to those other than her, for I am far from an expert on those three either, but know of their capabilities from certain bits of the anime I have seen.

Tsuna's absorption works by placing his hands in a diamond in front of him. His flame flickers and whatever hits the frontal part of him is absorbed. It's debatable that it may work on her attacks that are simply imbued with electricity as well, considering lightning flames in the KHR verse are often imbued into something else, and they can be absorbed or frozen all the same.

I think that discounting reborn mode as a whole is incorrect. It essentially makes it so that for whatever energy and effort Mikasa puts into trying to hurt Tsuna, it will be multiplied by a factor of at least half, potentially double. And if Tsuna gets his absorption off, he will have the speed to catch up to Mikasa, especially given his mobility advantage.

It's also not as though she's always perfect at fending off from a distance. Those she's fighting have gotten up close to her before, and I fail to see why Tsuna would be any different given his mobility and AP advantage, when he can literally swat away everything she does. Not to mention that this is quite literally how he fights, in particular in this arc. He abuses his flight to close the distance, swiftly dodging, and punching things out of his way.

But in your example, is that a 20x difference? I highly doubt it. In your example, the dagger cannot cause damage not because it cannot hit the plate at all, but because the plate wearer will simply move out of the way, not being struck. Why would his face be less durable than his neck, arms, chest? All of that was struck by Xanxus' attacks, and endured it. And Xanxus' attack should have limited durability bypassing properties by nature of the flames of wrath. Even if they don't, that's still him taking 7-C attacks. Given the 20x, and a more accurate example, how long would it actually take? And is Misaka's offense so perfect that Tsuna will never be able to close the distance? That seems very doubtful, given the later's style of fighting, mobility advantage, and ability to absorb some of her attacks to increase his speed and strength.

 

[Mand21]

I meant her durability. She's never going to fight without using her powers, so her striking strength is nigh-irrelevant.

Um... why would a plate armor user dodge an attack from a dagger? You know, they can use any armored portion of their bodies (most of it) as a shield, which is why armors are so broken. I believe that yes, it's a good example of how this battle works: most of Tsuna's body is too durable to take any significant damage.

And I'm not talking about face as a whole, although the thinner skin and bones at some points do help damage to be dealt. I'm speaking of his scrotum, eyes, ears and jugular.

To Aru is a cast full of Extraordinary Geniuses. It's not like Misaka makes many notable mistakes on her fights: her opponents both outclass her in power and can keep up with her intelligence. Or, in cases like Touma, he's pretty damn smart and can keep up with her intell-

...you convinced me. I tripped myself. Still, I don't think this will be anywhere an easy battle for Tsuna. He'll get tired as shit and might be in the verge of collapsing from exhaustion and frustration by the point he finally gets that final blow.

 

[Schnee_One]

Taunt for the reasons above.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Oh, I'm not receiving notifications for this thread. Does anyone know how to fix that?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@Gar

Who is Taunt? 0.0

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Mand21

Yay, lol. I do agree, it won't be easy at all. I just think it's plausible for Tsuna to get in and do, like, anything really. It hurts me that this version is spammed though. He doesn't have X-Burner yet, so his flight abuse is quite different in this version.

Side note though, I do love Touma. It always amazes me how characters can take one ability and make it so broken or versatile.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Tsuna for Teon's reasons

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

-Tsuna: 3 (XXS,Teo,Emp)
-Mikoto: 3 (me,Mand,XDrag)

I'm still didn't count Gar vote yet.

 

[ZackMoon1234]

Tsuna FRA

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

-Tsuna: 4 (XXS,Teo,Emp,Zack)

-Mikoto: 3 (me,Mand,XDrag)

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Mand21]

I changed my vote to Tsuna, Velox.

And I have to agree with that. "Heart is an awesome power" is one of my favorite tropes.

 

[XDragnoir]

I've been thinking, is this game really fair? Tsuna can kill mikoto with literally any of his moves, while Mikoto will need a very large amount of attacks.