MGK: LN, WN and all officially secondary merchandise sources as well as Raws validation.

[Reiner04]

MGK has been accepted to be exception to our rules and only being allowed to use official translations or LNs exclusive content.

As per the recent thread has been accepted.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/new-policy-regarding-web-novels-and-light-novels-verses.154830/

This thread proposal is to treat MGK as per our rules and as all others, to allow use of MGK WNs, Raws, LNs and other secondary sources, the deletion reason being MTL and wrong translation was valid but only official translations should be used I don't need to point out how wrong it is., official translations can themselves be wrong and every verse allowed to have WN and LN content in same as long as no contradiction and both have same plot an all. The main reason behind the deletion was mistranslations anyway and exclusive official translation bullshit was most likely overlooked including by me and other supporters including @Dereck03, @ImmortalDread was being woman but nvm. So that's it, getting both into play.

Agree: @Planck69, @Celestial_Pegasus, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Lonkitt

Disagree: @Deagonx

 

[Deagonx]

I appreciate you making this thread to discuss the issue.

For those not in the know, MGK was deleted and recreated with the policy that only official translations of the Light Novel would be utilized for the verse at all. This was due to a variety of issues stemming from machine translations of the Web Novel, and so it was decided that no more WN content would be used, and only the official English translation of the Light Novel would comprise the verse. We also recently put into writing that WN and LN content (from any verse, not just MGK) could be merged if they were extremely similar and did not have noteworthy deviations. That was already largely the case, but we made it an official rule recently.

The question is whether to overturn the ruling that MGK would be comprised specifically of LN content, specifically the official translations. For my part, I think it is best to keep the policy in place. This verse has been a major major headache to moderate, leading to several RVR debacles in recent months, and I can only think that the issue would be compounded if we expand the scope of debate to the minutia of which kanji were used, LN vs WN, et cetera. We should stick to official English translations of the Light Novel, and if the argument cannot be made successfully from that source of information, it is worth considering that it likely shouldn't be made at all.

 

[Reiner04]

I appreciate you making this thread to discuss the issue.

For those not in the know, MGK was deleted and recreated with the policy that only official translations of the Light Novel would be utilized for the verse at all. This was due to a variety of issues stemming from machine translations of the Web Novel, and so it was decided that no more WN content would be used, and only the official English translation of the Light Novel would comprise the verse. We also recently put into writing that WN and LN content (from any verse, not just MGK) could be merged if they were extremely similar and did not have noteworthy deviations. That was already largely the case, but we made it an official rule recently.

The question is whether to overturn the ruling that MGK would be comprised specifically of LN content, specifically the official translations. For my part, I think it is best to keep the policy in place. This verse has been a major major headache to moderate, leading to several RVR debacles in recent months, and I can only think that the issue would be compounded if we expand the scope of debate to the minutia of which kanji were used, LN vs WN, et cetera. We should stick to official English translations of the Light Novel, and if the argument cannot be made successfully from that source of information, it is worth considering that it likely shouldn't be made at all.

Verse has lead to several Reports or RVR is not the issue since most of it has happened after the deletion and inforcing only LNs view point.

For the rest of the quote, I disagree with only Official LNs stuff for the reason I already stated. Be it a increase in debate over kanji, Raws, etc. I am fine with it and not really my issue that ppl cannot calm themselves and get heated so soon. So I'll not argue on that either. I want the verse I, @Dereck03, @EldemadeDityjon, @Tatsumi504 and many other support to be treated equally and allow use of WNs and Raws. And all of them are fine with it. Not sure about @ImmortalDread tho.

 

[Deagonx]

I want the verse I, @Dereck03, @EldemadeDityjon, @Tatsumi504 and many other support to be treated equally and allow use of WNs and Raws.

Then why did all of those people agree with the thread that established this?

 

[Reiner04]

Then why did all of those people agree with the thread that established this?

We all specifically when discussed were only concerned about MTLs and mistranslations, only official translations or only LNs was never the intent and as straightforward it is with what dereck and every other stated. I realised that wording goes against what I find acceptable and so the thread. I overlooked it.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, it was indeed brought up not only in the OP but also by other comments as well. Looking through the deletion thread again, this comment was made pretty early on:

Sticking only with the LN's official translations seems reasonable to me. Relying on a verse of which 95% of its content was MTL doesn't seem a good idea and it's bound to cause more problems than not, so, agreed.

It has likes from both you and Elde. I am not trying to put you on the spot or anything, but I just don't see how you can argue this is something that got snuck past the supporters of the verse when all of them participated and even liked comments that indicated we'd be moving to LN Official Translation only for MGK. It's okay to change your mind, it's not like this makes your argument invalid, but I don't think the change should be painted as something that was snuck in or done without supporter approval, it was brought up several times in the thread and was in the OP multiple times.

 

[Deagonx]

Also, going to tag the staff members that participated in that thread. @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X @Theglassman12 @Duedate8898 @Dereck03

 

[Reiner04]

It's okay to change your mind, it's not like this makes your argument invalid, but I don't think the change should be painted as something that was snuck in or done without supporter approval, it was brought up several times in the thread and was in the OP multiple times

Uh, then ig I can't do anything about it but can assure I myself, overlooked it which can be seen any of my comments related to the issue on any thread. But nvm, @Dereck03 has also not much participated in that thread but just did the accepted work. But it's fine either way, either I changed my mind or overlooked it shouldn't invalidate the OP. I've changed my opinions many times regarding many issues after rethinking even when opposition reasoning hasn't been changed even a little bit, example dragonball high 3A thread.

Not gonna defend my intentions. I am lazy ass to type and argue afterall.

 

[Reiner04]

@Celestial_Pegasus, @Elizhaa, @DarkDragonMedeus your input will be appreciated as well (Now see how my summoning works)

 

[Planck69]

Eh, if MGK was accepted to use both LN and WN material as in accordance to that thread's guidelines then I have no issue with it.

 

[Reiner04]

Eh, if MGK was accepted to use both LN and WN material as in accordance to that thread's guidelines then I have no issue with it.

Thanks for the input plancks ^ ^’

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Celestial_Pegasus, @Elizhaa, @DarkDragonMedeus your input will be appreciated as well (Now see how my summoning works)

@Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus

you're welcome

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You can use LN and WN, but MTL shouldn't be allowed, from there if you want to propose upgrades, which i think will be inevitable, using raws, you have to get someone who is trusted to give accurate translations, to translate whatever you find.

I wouldn't personally go to Arc 8 of Re Zero, which hasn't yet received the fully trusted fan translation or even the somtimes incorrect official translations, just MTL, and then look for the raws, and get someone to translate the portions i want to use for an upgrade, but that's just my personal distaste for that.

I can foresee future arguments, possibly about translations, in regards to Maou's cosmology, which i want no parts of. Just an fyi for everyone here, i don't want to deal with this verse, too much toxicity around it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The proposals in the OP look good to me from a glance.

Edit: I also agree with Celestial Pegasus

 

[Reiner04]

Snip

Snip

Thanks DDM and Pegasus for the input ^ ^’

 

[Deagonx]

You can use LN and WN, but MTL shouldn't be allowed, from there if you want to propose upgrades, which i think will be inevitable, using raws, you have to get someone who is trusted to give accurate translations, to translate whatever you find.

I wouldn't personally go to Arc 8 of Re Zero, which hasn't yet received the fully trusted fan translation or even the somtimes incorrect official translations, just MTL, and then look for the raws, and get someone to translate the portions i want to use for an upgrade, but that's just my personal distaste for that.

I can foresee future arguments, possibly about translations, in regards to Maou's cosmology, which i want no parts of. Just an fyi for everyone here, i don't want to deal with this verse, too much toxicity around it.

I think this point warrants deeper consideration. We restricted it in the first place due to problems with these kinds of arguments, and as you point out, you yourself don't want to be involved with the verse due to the toxicity. As one user pointed out in the initial deletion thread:

I agree. Always asking for raws and specific Kanjis and mistranslations has caused MG threads to become derailed and be drawn out unnecessarily. As well as toxic sometimes. I hope the official LN translations will solve all these issues.

The war over raws, kanjis, which translation is best, WN vs LN wording, et cetera. These problems can exist for any verse, but we had many more issues with MGK in this regard, to such an extent that we nuked the verse and started it over again with LN only, official translation only. I don't think we should reverse that two months later, especially given how contentious the verse has already been. Opening it up to a much wider range of potential disagreements, many of which are going to be very nitpicky and require the involvement of multiple translators arguing with each other, I think it is preferable to avoid it. That's why we did it originally.

As an aside, if we do bring it back to both WN and LN, and beyond official translations, we should bring back the versions of the profiles that existed prior to the deletion rather than attempting to revisit all of the matters a second time. This whole maneuver could, in theory, essentially just reverse a bunch of CRTs that shouldn't have actually been reversed if we were just going to bring back WN and raws 2 months later.

 

[Reiner04]

That reminds me.

@Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus

you're welcome

Can you ping @DontTalkDT (I can clearly recall her saying that she has read the novel), @EldemadeDityjon, @Godsatoshi23, @BestMGQScalerEver as well, I want to know other supporters think before grace (48 hrs) period overs.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As an aside, if we do bring it back to both WN and LN, and beyond official translations, we should bring back the versions of the profiles that existed prior to the deletion rather than attempting to revisit all of the matters a second time. This whole maneuver could, in theory, essentially just reverse a bunch of CRTs that shouldn't have actually been reversed if we were just going to bring back WN and raws 2 months later.

I've received permission from @Deagonx to comment here. Mainly, I want to express my concerns on this proposal. The old profiles were deleted because of the abundance of MTLs present; Even if we all decided to allow WN content, we'd still be dealing with a sea of content that is near impossible to accurately verify (not to mention, this would also lead to things that currently have officially translated scans being replaced with MTL, which nobody wants). While recreating profiles from scratch is obviously annoying, I think people are going to be just as annoyed when faced with the prospect of analyzing every scan, getting them translated by humans, and subsequently analyzed to see if they're still usable. It's a lose-lose scenario to be honest, but I think the way things are being done now is the lesser of two evils.

As an aside, I do generally agree with Deagon's take here most. Allowing the use of the WN/fan translations for the LN, while fine for pretty much every other verse, has led to a large amount of controversy and RVR posts for MGK in particular. So while disallowing the use of the WN may seem like making an unfair exception, this is a case of exceptional circumstances. MGK supporters ****** around and are now finding out; The way they conducted themselves previously, at least in terms of indexing the verse, has put them in a position where they sort of have to be scrutinized more harshly than normal. It's not fun, obviously, but it is a necessity.

In any case, I think a compromise may be the best solution. We let this revision pass, and if things go smoothly, well, nothing else needs to be done. If we revert back to the old controversies that MGK is known for though, then we have an obvious problem on our hands and we need to go back to using the official LN translation only, with no chances to appeal like this.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@EldemadeDityjon, @Godsatoshi23, @BestMGQScalerEver as well, I want to know other supporters think before grace (48 hrs) period overs.

They would need to ask permission to comment.

 

[Reiner04]

I've received permission from @Deagonx to comment here. Mainly, I want to express my concerns on this proposal. The old profiles were deleted because of the abundance of MTLs present; Even if we all decided to allow WN content, we'd still be dealing with a sea of content that is near impossible to accurately verify (not to mention, this would also lead to things that currently have officially translated scans being replaced with MTL, which nobody wants). While recreating profiles from scratch is obviously annoying, I think people are going to be just as annoyed when faced with the prospect of analyzing every scan, getting them translated by humans, and subsequently analyzed to see if they're still usable. It's a lose-lose scenario to be honest, but I think the way things are being done now is the lesser of two evils.

As an aside, I do generally agree with Deagon's take here most. Allowing the use of the WN/fan translations for the LN, while fine for pretty much every other verse, has led to a large amount of controversy and RVR posts for MGK in particular. So while disallowing the use of the WN may seem like making an unfair exception, this is a case of exceptional circumstances. MGK supporters ****** around and are now finding out; The way they conducted themselves previously, at least in terms of indexing the verse, has put them in a position where they sort of have to be scrutinized more harshly than normal. It's not fun, obviously, but it is a necessity.

In any case, I think a compromise may be the best solution. We let this revision pass, and if things go smoothly, well, nothing else needs to be done. If we revert back to the old controversies that MGK is known for though, then we have an obvious problem on our hands and we need to go back to using the official LN translation only, with no chances to appeal like this.

Thankyou for your input and yeah, I largely agree with your post.

 

[DarkGrath]

I've given Godsatoshi23 permission to provide their input.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I agree with op,

Since both WN and LN are pretty much the same, the only thing is that the LN has some more detailed explanations, so merging with WN is fine for me.

Now about the translation, First I know we agreed to use LN translation but it was never said we won't use Fan translation and raws. In fact From here https://vsbattles.com/threads/mg-verse-deletion-request.151317/post-5594571
It confirms that Dread never intended to use only official translation but as long as the translation is done correctly and without errors it can be used, the problem here is that it was not in the OP(Which should have been), and relying only on official translation alone is not a good approach since even official translation can make some mistakes so I think we should be allowed to use Fan translation and Raws.

Edit: @Reiner I have privately contacted with @EldemadeDityjon and @Tatsumi504 they have also agree with the proposal.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with op,

Since both WN and LN are pretty much the same, the only thing is that the LN has some more detailed explanations, so merging with WN is fine for me.

Now about the translation, First I know we agreed to use LN translation but it was never said we won't use Fan translation and raws. In fact From here https://vsbattles.com/threads/mg-verse-deletion-request.151317/post-5594571
It confirms that Dread never intended to use only official translation but as long as the translation is done correctly and without errors it can be used, the problem here is that it was not in the OP(Which should have been), and relying only on official translation alone is not a good approach since even official translation can make some mistakes so I think we should be allowed to use Fan translation and Raws.

It is more important what her proposal actually was, and what various members and staff actually agreed to, rather than what the OP may have personally been open to. In other comments, it's clear that users were under the impression that Official LN translations were the move going forward:

I hope the official LN translations will solve all these issues.

Sticking only with the LN's official translations seems reasonable to me.

Doesn't the LN only have like three officially translated volumes?

I think this was a reasonable change, and I do not believe we should reverse it. @DarkGrath do you have any perspective on this matter?

 

[Reiner04]

I agree with op,

Since both WN and LN are pretty much the same, the only thing is that the LN has some more detailed explanations, so merging with WN is fine for me.

Now about the translation, First I know we agreed to use LN translation but it was never said we won't use Fan translation and raws. In fact From here https://vsbattles.com/threads/mg-verse-deletion-request.151317/post-5594571
It confirms that Dread never intended to use only official translation but as long as the translation is done correctly and without errors it can be used, the problem here is that it was not in the OP(Which should have been), and relying only on official translation alone is not a good approach since even official translation can make some mistakes so I think we should be allowed to use Fan translation and Raws.

I do understand all this and elde sent me all this yesterday but as I have told him and will say it here again, intentions doesn't matter if the proposal is correct and I do not wish to argue over smth that has no relevancy to the outcome or the thread in question. Only thing matters for me result. I hope we don't continue it just because we all want to paint our opinions or view towards others as absolute. Everyone can hold their own view idc.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1108125434127859903/1118894644307173376/Screenshot_2023_0615_185659.png

 

[Deagonx]

Small aside, @Reiner, why do you have Fuji and DarkGrath listed as agrees? Fuji is a disagree and DarkGrath hasn't given an opinion on it yet.

 

[DarkGrath]

DarkGrath do you have any perspective on this matter?

As of yet, no. I'm still looking into the thread.

I normally wouldn't reply to a comment like this before having a specific opinion to give, but I'm doing so now to specify that no, I have not stated I agree with the thread, and I do not know why I have been listed as agreeing with the thread in the OP.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I do understand all this and elde sent me all this yesterday but as I have told him and will say it here again, intentions doesn't matter if the proposal is correct and I do not wish to argue over smth that has no relevancy to the outcome or the thread in question. Only thing matters for me result. I hope we don't continue it just because we all want to paint our opinions or view towards others as absolute. Everyone can hold their own view idc.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1108125434127859903/1118894644307173376/Screenshot_2023_0615_185659.png

I see.

 

[Reiner04]

DarkGrath

Oh wait, I wanted to list off @Godsatoshi23, typo or maybe I was thinking about Grath when I was editing the votes, about @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara .

In any case, I think a compromise may be the best solution. We let this revision pass, and if things go smoothly, well, nothing else needs to be done. If we revert back to the old controversies that MGK is known for though, then we have an obvious problem on our hands and we need to go back to using the official LN translation only, with no chances to appeal like this.

This made me thought she agrees? I dunno if I mistook her.

 

[Deagonx]

This made me thought she agrees? I dunno if I mistook her.

As an aside, I do generally agree with Deagon's take here most. Allowing the use of the WN/fan translations for the LN, while fine for pretty much every other verse, has led to a large amount of controversy and RVR posts for MGK in particular. So while disallowing the use of the WN may seem like making an unfair exception, this is a case of exceptional circumstances.

I mean, I guess it could go either way? If she sees it as a compromise I wouldn't characterize that as an agree, really.

 

[Reiner04]

I mean, I guess it could go either way? If she sees it as a compromise I wouldn't characterize that as an agree, really.

Uh okay, I'll put her in neutral then ig..

 

[Reiner04]

Edit: @Reiner I have privately contacted with @EldemadeDityjon and @Tatsumi504 they have also agree with the proposal

Yeah, elde told me at night that he agrees but he will have to tell that in this thread for me to mention and tatsumi is thread banned. For same reason I've not put dereck in agreement as she as well have to say it in this thread, what their opinions were in other threads doesn't matter.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Yeah, elde told me at night that he agrees but he will have to tell that in this thread for me to mention and tatsumi is thread banned. For same reason I've not put dereck in agreement as she as well have to say it in this thread, what their opinions were in other threads doesn't matter.

Alright.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

For the record, I disagree, but I know this will likely pass anyways so I proposed a compromise so we hopefully don't have to deal with this issue again.

 

[Deagonx]

I am also a disagree, if that was not clear.

 

[Reiner04]

I can see that verse has some major problems and issues which has led to alot of RVR visits but I don't think limiting the content for the verse would be a good step towards this and the unfairness and exceptional treatment will just lead to bad mentality and will add up on the wounds. unfairness can never be a good option And having more contents to argue may helps providing more context towards scans and new materials, leading to more accuracy and satisfaction and supporters will not have thought that this unfairness is the reason that proposals is being rejected or accepted. I think just properly talking things out (in DM, PM) in case of things going out of hands will be more better step. Unless the guy is entirely lost, a proper kind talk can solve the issue, but that's just me and me personally.

It'll be better if the issue regarding how can mgk threads go regularly and without any trouble got discussed in another thread. That said, I disagree with limiting contents or RVR having any relevancy here.

 

[Deagonx]

I can see that verse has some major problems and issues which has led to alot of RVR visits but I don't think limiting the content for the verse would be a good step towards this

To be clear, I am not particularly concerned with WN vs LN. I am mostly concerned with unofficial translations being used. A few weeks ago there was a CRT that was literally utilizing an English machine translation of the Russian translation of the original Japanese because that version was more sympathetic to an upgrade. I mean, good god.

I don't think it's unfair to stick to official English translations. I genuinely think that's a necessity here.

 

[Reiner04]

To be clear, I am not particularly concerned with WN vs LN. I am mostly concerned with unofficial translations being used. A few weeks ago there was a CRT that was literally utilizing an English translation of the Russian translation of the original Japanese because that version was more sympathetic to an upgrade. I mean, good god.

I don't think it's unfair to stick to official English translations. I genuinely think that's a necessity here.

Hmmm but our rules do not have any priority regarding this. An official translation can itself be wrong and treated on equal footing with fluent translators or in many cases inferior or superior to that, depending on the circumstances.

WN can be used, we trust reliable translations/translators, there can be a increase in debate over kanji but only if regular members are using MTLs, incase if fluent translator has translated it, we gotta go with it. Every verse get to the point to argue kanjis or approaching our TL members. That's just seeking more accuracy. But as I said, that's how we go and always has been going normally and originally with all verses. Alot of debate is not the issue but Toxicity which was and will stay regardless of debate unless solved.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump, I guess.

 

[Reiner04]

Snip.

You can close the thread. It has been accepted and 48 hrs has been passed, not like it will change any profile but just that LN is not the only thing, WN can be used and any official material like all other verses.

 

[Deagonx]

I'd prefer to wait for more staff input. I know we are past the 48 hour mark, but we only just made the first switch a couple months ago and if we reverse it I'd like to wait a bit longer. Although it doesn't seem that DDM or Celestial are interested in discussing it further.