Maou Gakuin Resistance Discussion [STAFF ONLY]

[Dereck03]

And the mind manip, in my example, is caused by electricity itself, not an ability derived from electricity. It's stressed multiple times that the mind control is from the electricity, and that those effected have to do as the electricity-wielder desires. While others cannot resist that electricity, two characters can.

Yet despite all this, those two only get resistance to mind manip.

Because the ability is made directly to affect a specific point of the person, in this case the mind as you say it depends on what the bearer of the elictricity wishes, but here it is only a general power that exercises powers in specifics of its nature (Law and Cm), practically by rejecting that the order possesses these characteristics you are going completely against the story by saying that his words although they exercise the power of the order itself and are the order they do not give a resistance to whoever resists it.

let's cut it out with the whataboutism.

But it is very similar, I.E Yogiri kills with his words and Nosgalia exercises order through his words, Yogiri has Death Manip and Cm with his words but nosgalia does not gain any ability....

Don't kill me for the whataboutism, blame reiner.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Let's cut it out with the whataboutism" immediately followed by more whataboutism. Awesome. I'm going to bed.

 

[Dereck03]

"Let's cut it out with the whataboutism" immediately followed by more whataboutism. Awesome. I'm going to bed.

You only say that because the example I gave is irrefutable, anyway GN.

 

[Agnaa]

That's really a issue with how exactly the hax is being implemented, if electricity itself is imposed the control on victims mind and exercising the govern, then victim will get Resistance towards both if not like electricity is just a source of kind of mind controlling machine than that's obvious victim will not gain resistance towards electricity, but then electricity itself has no role into play here to be specifically mentioned or it's not either being imposed on victim directly and mind manp is just one of effects it cause.

No, such a character has no reason to take significantly reduced damage from electrical attacks on their body. They only resisted the mind-altering effects.

But here, order seems to be the one which is being imposed rather than just ability.

If we ignore the sources like concept altering, reality altering being imposed directly on victim to cause specific effect and just focus on the effects that it maybe causing then there will be void of may resistances related to concept or EE or RW as all of them just wishes things. From kratos profile:

Resistance to Reality Warping (Can resist the illusions of the Furies,[14] which is stated to warp the victim's senses[14] and even distort the area around them,[14] with proper focus on his mind[14] or with the Eyes of Truth[14])

That's not really comparable. That can't just be taken as resistance to illusion creation/sense manipulation, since it literally warps the reality around him, at least from what that description says.

Because the ability is made directly to affect a specific point of the person, in this case the mind as you say it depends on what the bearer of the elictricity wishes, but here it is only a general power that exercises powers in specifics of its nature (Law and Cm), practically by rejecting that the order possesses these characteristics you are going completely against the story by saying that his words although they exercise the power of the order itself and are the order they do not give a resistance to whoever resists it.

I don't really understand what you're saying.

My best guess is that you're saying "In your example, the electricity only affects a part of the target. But here, it's a general power, that's just acting in specifics here." Which doesn't make sense as a response, since in both cases, they'd be general abilities focused into specific applications.

But it is very similar, I.E Yogiri kills with his words and Nosgalia exercises order through his words, Yogiri has Death Manip and Cm with his words but nosgalia does not....

Really, you could consider abilities and cases like these to be both, but they'd only narrowly effect both.

By which I mean:

• Yogiri has Death Manip and Concept Manip.
• Anyone who vaguely resists that ability would get be able to resist Death Manip caused by Concept Manip. But not Death Manip caused by other things, or Concept Manip used for other applications.
• Yogiri's ability would be resisted by anyone who resists:
  • Death Manip in general.
  • Concept Manip in general.
  • Anyone who resists Death Manip done through Concept Manip.

The same could be applied here really, but it more seems like you're arguing for a general resistance to concept manip and law manip, which isn't substantiated.

"Let's cut it out with the whataboutism" immediately followed by more whataboutism. Awesome. I'm going to bed.

Don't dismiss valid probing for inconsistencies as "whataboutism".

 

[Dereck03]

My best guess is that you're saying "In your example, the electricity only affects a part of the target. But here, it's a general power, that's just acting in specifics here." Which doesn't make sense as a response, since in both cases, they'd be general abilities focused into specific applications.

Let me explain better. By general power I mean that the power encompasses the general scope of the order, to give a little more context, there are many types of orders in Maou. Each one exercises order in a different way, be it through creation, destruction, fate, words, time, demise, etc. The order of Nosgalia (The order of order) directly exercises its power through words that exercise order and are recognized as absolute order, moreover he is the one who creates the other orders so he can create laws and concepts through words as well as terminate them.

By which I mean:

• Yogiri has Death Manip and Concept Manip.

Yes

• Anyone who vaguely resists that ability would get be able to resist Death Manip caused by Concept Manip. But not Death Manip caused by other things, or Concept Manip used for other applications.

Yes, but yogiri also have more applications of his Death and Concept Manip that extend the scope of the ability itself not limiting it

• Yogiri's ability would be resisted by anyone who resists:
  • Death Manip in general.
  • Concept Manip in general.
  • Anyone who resists Death Manip done through Concept Manip.

Yes but even characters with resistance do not resist it, that would be more layers in Yogiri's verse. However, it was only an example to prove the similarity.

The same could be applied here really, but it more seems like you're arguing for a general resistance to concept manip and law manip, which isn't substantiated.

If we talk about categorizing what you say is general, then it would only gain resistance on the basis of Cm based on the creation of concepts and destruction of concepts, based on the fact that the order of order is the creator of order (Law and Cm) and can terminate them as well. Although we have not reached the point in the novel where the order of the order actually fights, we know those basic points that can be used as a reference and at Law Manip, it is a more general use since order is also

The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Say I use subjective reality to will a fireball into reality, and fire it at someone who subsequently resists it. Does that person resist subjective reality?

I think this point sums up current stance well enough. It may seem like a different scenario, since in here the effect isn't indirect (You create a construct through mechanism X and throw that at someone), but more directly imposed on others (Time Stop and Power Modification), but the same principle applies: The character is resisting the effect of the ability, not its mechanism.

In fact I'd say it probably goes double here, since, from what the OP says, what we're dealing here is Type 1 concepts, which is to say they exist independently from reality and govern it from that state, instead of being shaped by it too. So manipulating the concept of time in that view is affecting the world through a cascade effect of sorts, meaning that the character resisting that ability is necessarily resisting only the effects, because the concepts aren't part of them and as such they aren't being affected by that part of the process behind the power.

 

[Dereck03]

Ultima, you are a bit lost here, we are not talking about Time manipulation nor anything related to time stuffs or the order of time anymore.

Moreover that's not even an argument in what I'm arguing.

 

[Agnaa]

Let me explain better. By general power I mean that the power encompasses the general scope of the order, to give a little more context, there are many types of orders in Maou. Each one exercises order in a different way, be it through creation, destruction, fate, words, time, demise, etc. The order of Nosgalia (The order of order) directly exercises its power through words that exercise order and are recognized as absolute order, moreover he is the one who creates the other orders so he can create laws and concepts through words as well as terminate them.

That doesn't sound like it distinguishes it from the electricity/mind manip example, but it's also not making a lot of sense in general.

If we talk about categorizing what you say is general, then it would only gain resistance on the basis of Cm based on the creation of concepts and destruction of concepts

That's not the only way to gain resistance to CM under what I'm saying. The character who resists it just needs clear context that they resisted the CM part.

based on the fact that the order of order is the creator of order (Law and Cm) and can terminate them as well. Although we have not reached the point in the novel where the order of the order actually fights, we know those basic points that can be used as a reference and at Law Manip, it is a more general use since order is also

The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them.

I don't understand the relevance of this.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Ultima, you are a bit lost here, we are not talking about Time manipulation nor anything related to time stuffs or the order of time anymore.

We are still talking about Anos resisting the manipulation of orders, no? If so, then what I said still stands. Swap "concept of time" with any other concept (Save for, perhaps, personal concepts), and the point being made is the same.

 

[Dereck03]

That doesn't sound like it distinguishes it from the electricity/mind manip example, but it's also not making a lot of sense in general

Yes it does, because your example limits the same ability to the desire of its bearer, by saying that electricity directly affects the brain to cause a related effect of mind manipulation and thus does not involve Electricity Manip. And my point here is that each order, although they are Laws and Concepts, exercise their powers in a different way. For example the order of destruction will do it by destroying and the order of creation will do it by creating, so if you resist that order then you are gaining the resistances.

That's not the only way to gain resistance to CM under what I'm saying. The character who resists it just needs clear context that they resisted the CM part.

And what do you want the series to say? I have resisted laws and concepts of your words? Anos simply resisted the very power of order.

I don't understand the relevance of this.

I was trying to show in which category of Law Manipulation the manipulation of the current order could fall but it is characterized as irrelevant.

We are still talking about Anos resisting the manipulation of orders, no? If so, then what I said still stands. Swap "concept of time" with any other concept (Save for, perhaps, personal concepts), and the point being made is the same?

So resisting any order even though they are Law and Cm does not guarantee such resistance? So tell me, what would this be for you, I do not intend to use this as proof, just tell me what it would be for you, Anos resisted the power of the order of destruction.

And your point is nonsense, because being so no possible application of the use of order in verse would be adequate for a resistance in your view.

 

[Deagonx]

I fully agree with Agnaa and Ultima here.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes it does, because your example limits the same ability to the desire of its bearer, by saying that electricity directly affects the brain to cause a related effect of mind manipulation and thus does not involve Electricity Manip.

What? The ability isn't limited to doing that, it's also used for electrical attacks, making metal objects levitate, etc.

But those characters haven't shown the ability to resist those, they have only demonstrated the ability to resist the mind manip, and so that's the only resistance they get.

And my point here is that each order, although they are Laws and Concepts, exercise their powers in a different way. For example the order of destruction will do it by destroying and the order of creation will do it by creating, so if you resist that order then you are gaining the resistances.

I don't really understand what you're saying here.

And what do you want the series to say? I have resisted laws and concepts of your words? Anos simply resisted the very power of order.

That Anos is unaffected by changes in laws/concepts. That Anos's concept is immutable. Something like that.

So tell me, what would this be for you, I do not intend to use this as proof, just tell me what it would be for you, Anos resisted the power of the order of destruction.

This is pages of a bad translation, most of which is irrelevant, to the point where I can't tell what the "power of the order of destruction" is, or where he resisted it. Please make your scans more concise.

 

[Dereck03]

What? The ability isn't limited to doing that, it's also used for electrical attacks, making metal objects levitate, etc.

But those characters haven't shown the ability to resist those, they have only demonstrated the ability to resist the mind manip, and so that's the only resistance they get.

Clearly you said that the application of the effects may vary depending on what the electricy-weilders desire.

I don't really understand what you're saying here.

That Anos is unaffected by changes in laws/concepts. That the Anos's concept is immutable. Something like that.

Nobody understands anything these days.

And that is not the only way to gain resistance to conceptual manipulation and law, simply resisting an attack involving those 2 is enough, but now magically here it is not enough. It is the same as saying that Anos resisting Venuzdonoa would not gain resistance to Venuz' abilities.

This is pages of a bad translation, most of which is irrelevant, to the point where I can't tell what the "power of the order of destruction" is, or where he resisted it. Please make your scans more concise.

Can you say they are bad translations? This is the way the chapters of the novel are organized, and besides, it is given all the context from where the ability begins to where it ends, so don't blame the scan for not finding what you are looking for. Let me give you the keys so that you can CTRL+F

Oh, it's about time. "[The Sun of Destruction]" will light up the earth again. I'm sorry, but I can't stop it. It's the order of the world."

"I'd say I was here to take the order of the God of Destruction. I didn't say I was here to destroy you."

As if in reaction to the disorder of order, the black sun went wild, scorching the Demon King's body and striking out to bring an end to his source.

The source of destruction and the order of destruction.
The same forces of destruction and annihilation rival each other, and a vast amount of destruction floods the place.

Loosely, The Demon King Anos turned away his face. Smiling softly, he said. See? I have destroyed the unreasonable.

And don't worry, as I said I don't intend to use that as proof, but it seems that there is not enough understanding to understand that the scan shows Anos directly resisting and destroying the power of the order of destruction. And that's something I can't solve.

 

[Deagonx]

And that's something I can't solve.

Disagreement is not a lack of understanding, or a problem to be solved.

There is a reason why the votes are the way that they are. The basis for this ability is contentious and not everyone agrees with it, for valid reasons.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I fully agree with Ultima and Agnaa here.

 

[Agnaa]

Clearly you said that the application of the effects may vary depending on what the electricy-weilders desire.

Okay? I guess I just don't understand the point.

And that is not the only way to gain resistance to conceptual manipulation and law, simply resisting an attack involving those 2 is enough, but now magically here it is not enough.

For attacks on non-physical things like that, I think whether surviving those counts as a resistance is a case-by-case sorta deal. Depending on whether those attacks are something a normal human would survive, and whether they still need to get past the target's durability to affect those non-physical things.

Even then, I think resistance gained in that way is pretty limited in scope; in that it wouldn't stop one's concept from getting manipulated/erased.

It is the same as saying that Anos resisting Venuzdonoa would not gain resistance to Venuz' abilities.

Don't know what that is, you're gonna have to explain if you wanna use it as an example.

Can you say they are bad translations? This is the way the chapters of the novel are organized, and besides, it is given all the context from where the ability begins to where it ends, so don't blame the scan for not finding what you are looking for. Let me give you the keys so that you can CTRL+F

And don't worry, as I said I don't intend to use that as proof, but it seems that there is not enough understanding to understand that the scan shows Anos directly resisting and destroying the power of the order of destruction. And that's something I can't solve.

This sounds like a pretty physical thing. A sun gets created, is visible to people, risks destroying the Earth, starts damaging Anos' body, and then he stole the opponent's magic, eventually stopping the ability. This doesn't read like an attack on his concept/law (whatever it means to "attack someone's law").

But it's hard to understand, so I could be misinterpreting.

 

[Dog3352]

I think this point sums up current stance well enough. It may seem like a different scenario, since in here the effect isn't indirect (You create a construct through mechanism X and throw that at someone), but more directly imposed on others (Time Stop and Power Modification), but the same principle applies: The character is resisting the effect of the ability, not its mechanism.

In fact I'd say it probably goes double here, since, from what the OP says, what we're dealing here is Type 1 concepts, which is to say they exist independently from reality and govern it from that state, instead of being shaped by it too. So manipulating the concept of time in that view is affecting the world through a cascade effect of sorts, meaning that the character resisting that ability is necessarily resisting only the effects, because the concepts aren't part of them and as such they aren't being affected by that part of the process behind the power.

The stop in time is literally the order being used, I didn't quite understand your point, are you saying that what is being resisted is just the effects (stop time) and not the order? How is this possible when the stop time is literally an order?

 

[Reiner04]

The stop in time is literally the order being used, I didn't quite understand your point, are you saying that what is being resisted is just the effects (stop time) and not the order? How is this possible when the stop time is literally an order?

That's possible, for instance, concept of time being manipulated to not flow at all changing the nature of time itself to not flow and hence resisting it can also be done by resisting the time manp, but anyway I disagree with this approach, doesn't seems like anyone will qualify for resistance towards CM at all since CM always affects objects in question not directly sets or kind of direct part of anyone's body/being to be resisted but just shapes them, so altering space concept can be resisted by resistance towards transmutation or by being shapeless, unchanging, Resistance towards concept of life can be resisted by resisting life manp, resistance towards, etc, there will always be a alternative for effect if cause itself has "Some other means to be applied (for concept of time, it's time, for concept of shapes, it's shape, there can always be an argument that a character resisted later than former). So all resistances whoever has against CM will go.

 

[Dog3352]

That's possible, for instance, concept of time being manipulated to not flow at all changing the nature of time itself to not flow and hence resisting it can also be done by resisting the time manp, but anyway I disagree with this approach, doesn't seems like anyone will qualify for resistance towards CM at all since CM always affects objects in question not directly sets or kind of direct part of anyone's body/being to be resisted but just shapes them, so altering space concept can be resisted by resistance towards transmutation or by being shapeless, unchanging, Resistance towards concept of life can be resisted by resisting life manp, resistance towards, etc, there will always be a alternative for effect if cause itself has "Some other means to be applied (for concept of time, it's time, for concept of shapes, it's shape, there can always be an argument that a character resisted later than former). So all resistances whoever has against CM will go.

But what Eugo is doing is not something like reversing natural time or anything like that, he is literally using his order to stop time, so much so that he even mentions it as a divine power, other examples of moments like this are the sun of destruction literally being called the order of destruction, Nafta's abilities being called "the future itself" or order, and so on (although the examples are not in these 4 volumes).
You can tell very well that all the abilities of the gods are literally in order (cm) from numerous examples, but they have not been translated yet.

 

[Agnaa]

The stop in time is literally the order being used, I didn't quite understand your point, are you saying that what is being resisted is just the effects (stop time) and not the order? How is this possible when the stop time is literally an order?

What's being resisted is the specific effect, rather than the concept/law being manipulated, and rather than a general detachment from concepts/laws being manipulated and the effects of that.

That's possible, for instance, concept of time being manipulated to not flow at all changing the nature of time itself to not flow and hence resisting it can also be done by resisting the time manp, but anyway I disagree with this approach, doesn't seems like anyone will qualify for resistance towards CM at all since CM always affects objects in question not directly sets or kind of direct part of anyone's body/being to be resisted but just shapes them, so altering space concept can be resisted by resistance towards transmutation or by being shapeless, unchanging, Resistance towards concept of life can be resisted by resisting life manp, resistance towards, etc, there will always be a alternative for effect if cause itself has "Some other means to be applied (for concept of time, it's time, for concept of shapes, it's shape, there can always be an argument that a character resisted later than former). So all resistances whoever has against CM will go.

It's not that the series has to explicitly rule out every other alternative possible explanation. It's that the series has to sufficiently imply that explanation.

Not all resistances against CM would have to go.

But what Eugo is doing is not something like reversing natural time or anything like that, he is literally using his order to stop time, so much so that he even mentions it as a divine power, other examples of moments like this are the sun of destruction literally being called the order of destruction, Nafta's abilities being called "the future itself" or order, and so on (although the examples are not in these 4 volumes).

Does not matter. The context needs to exist for the feat of resistance, not so much for the nature of the ability itself.

No matter how many times the series stresses that X is what caused Y, the series still needs to indicate that X was resisted, not Y.

 

[Reiner04]

It's not that the series has to explicitly rule out every other alternative possible explanation. It's that the series has to sufficiently imply that explanation.

Not all resistances against CM would have to go.

Fair enough. I guess it goes down to the line that how we interpret said feats in fiction. In my view, if a character is unaffected by CM alteration, reality warping, etc then he should get Resistance towards it unless series goes down to explain it's being done via some other means or context it out that it being done via some other means (like resisting the object bound to concept) and That's how I have been seeing in many profiles from Kratos'profile to infinity Ultron and many more, so I'd this view point but as contrary can be equally valid. Agree to disagree.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, you can develop a consistent system treating things that way. But I think the way I'm suggesting has less egregious failures than yours.

A series I follow has characters who can create "silent fire".

Then Jane rocketed up from the street below. Fire flew from her fingers. She didn’t even speak; these weren’t the ordinary Names of mortals, this was the magic of Yetzirah, the higher level that only saints and prophets could even access. Saints, prophets, and Cometspawn. The undead withered and burnt.

Then the three Cometspawn attacked, calling the same silent fire I had seen in Las Vegas. It was awe-inspiring, geometric, a sort of rapid decomposition of reality, and Sarah wheeled around to face it. I ducked out of the way. Magic sizzled through the atmosphere

I don't think that, if a character was inexplicably unharmed by this, that they should be considered to resist all reality warping and magic no matter the application.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dereck03

What do you currently think should be done here, and why, explained in an easy to understand manner?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not gonna pretend to be okay with this. You cannot be ******* serious. The proposal to remove the resistances - something that was already discussed and agreed upon before you reversed the edit with zero public discussion - has been accepted with a 5-2 ratio. In no world would we ask someone on the losing side to determine what to do here. Dereck made his case, was disagreed with heavily, and yet he's going to be the one to choose what to do here, for reasons I cannot even begin to comprehend.

Is this really where we're at now? Where verse supporters get to just endlessly whine about mean down players until you cave and give them what they want? Whatever semblance of dignity this site ever had is long gone if that's the case. Make Anos 1-B then, **** it, I don't care. Because these threads are, evidently, a waste of my ******* time.

If this message gets me banned, well, it was fun here while it lasted.

 

[Antvasima]

I just want a summary to make it easier for me to make a decision where I stand regarding this issue.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I just want a summary to make it easier for me to make a decision where I stand regarding this issue.

The purpose of the thread is whether resisting an ability means resisting the cause of the said ability for example, if I resist flame from a flamethrower, do I also get resistance to the source of the flame which will be "technology or flamethrower"
The premise of this thread is that Anos could resist the ability of Order which is CM but has no statement that he resist Concept manipulation itself so the CM resistance on his profile should be removed


Ultima, Agnaa, Theglassman12, Deagonx, MaverickzeroX and me Agrees with the thread

Dereck and DDM disagrees.

So evaluating staff count it is 4 - 1

 

[Agnaa]

PoP, did you get permission to post here?

Your post doesn't understand the broader conversation, so it shouldn't have been made either way.

EDIT: A part of this post was edited out upon further reflection.

 

[PrinceofPein]

PoP, did you get permission to post here?

Your post is inaccurate, and doesn't understand the broader conversation, so it shouldn't have been made either way.

Got permission from Lonkitt to post here

How is my post inaccurate?
The point of the conversation is that Order is CM that has effects, Anos resists the effects of it but not CM itself since there is no feat or statement of such, he resists timestop from the God of Order of time, which is the scan that is being argued and another that has not really been sent here

 

[Agnaa]

Mb on the inaccurate part, I misremembered who was considered "evaluating staff". I'll go edit that out.

That's the point of the conversation, yeah. You were pointing out vote-counts for no good reason; while Ant had asked for a summary to make a decision, he meant in terms of coming to his own conclusion on the evidence. Not a summary of the votes people had made.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Mb on the inaccurate part, I misremembered who was considered "evaluating staff". I'll go edit that out.

That's the point of the conversation, yeah. You were pointing out vote-counts for no good reason; while Ant had asked for a summary to make a decision, he meant in terms of coming to his own conclusion on the evidence. Not a summary of the votes people had made.

I misunderstood ant then, to not clog up the thread, I will edit my posts above accordingly

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Got Permission from @Agnaa

緊縛神の秩序によるものか、全身に鎖でもつけられているように、体が重さを訴える。

『……ぁ……』

がくん、とエンネスオーネが膝を折る。

「エンネッ……！？」

ゼシアが心配そうにエンネスオーネの顔を覗き込む。

彼女は両手を床につき、脂汗を垂らしながら、荒い呼吸を繰り返した。

彼女の乏しい魔力では、この緊縛牢獄への抵抗力がないのだろう。

The body complains of heaviness, as if it were chained all over, perhaps due to the order of the bondage God.

"......ah......"

Ennesuone falls to her knees.

Ennesuone ......?

Zeshia looks into Ennesuone's face with concern.

She put her hands on the floor, sweating and breathing heavily.

With her meager magical power, she would not be able to resist this bondage prison.

ターバンの男が足を踏み出す。

　僅かに残った水溜まりに靴が触れれば、蒸発するでもなく、吸収されるでもなく、それは涸れた。

　さながら、水が終焉を迎えるが如く。

「そこで止まりなさい、終焉神アナヘム」

The man in the turban steps out.

When his shoe touches the slight remaining puddle, it neither evaporates nor is absorbed, but it dries up.

It was as if the water was reaching its end.

Stop right there, Anahem, God of the End.

What being unaffected by this is

The obvious answer for wesnera is gravity or density hax however, the Order of bondage has no such authority.
For Anaheim, the logical answer is death Manip but Anahem is the God of the End and the water simply came to an end. It wasn't evaporated, wasn't absorbed, wasn't erased, wasn't transformed.

With the cause and it's effect not falling into the logic of any of those abilities, the only remaining answer is CM & Law hax.
Wesnera is the concept of bondage and Ennesuone who's too weak to resist is affected by it. Anahem the Concept of the End and all things in his presence reach their end. Not being affected by him isn't resistance to death hax, it's resistance to CM.

 

[Agnaa]

Given the name, "the order of bondage", I'd suspect that it's Body Control.

Anaheim would get Matter Manip from that scan. Maybe Time Manip with further context.

Sometimes there are cases where no other ability is suitable, and so it would just be something like Law Manip, and resisting that would just be resistance to Law Manip, however, these cases aren't like that. And even if you find other cases in the verse, or even other characters in the verse where that is true, that doesn't automatically extend to all of their abilities.

As I said with the electricity manip/mind manip example. That dude does have some stuff which is definitely just electricity manip, but resisting the mind manip aspect of it does not count as resistance to electricity manip overall.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Given the name, "the order of bondage", I'd suspect that it's Body Control.

Anaheim would get Matter Manip from that scan. Maybe Time Manip with further context.

Sometimes there are cases where no other ability is suitable, and so it would just be something like Law Manip, and resisting that would just be resistance to Law Manip, however, these cases aren't like that. And even if you find other cases in the verse, or even other characters in the verse where that is true, that doesn't automatically extend to all of their abilities.

As I said with the electricity manip/mind manip example. That dude does have some stuff which is definitely just electricity manip, but resisting the mind manip aspect of it does not count as resistance to electricity manip overall.

The thing is Every Order is accepted as CM type 1 and Law Manipulation. Each God has different Orders that's all.

Law and Concepts of time
Law and Concept of Bondage
Law and Concept of end

If a feat specifically mentioned as Order of Bondage why would we remove that law and concepts and just give specific ability. I get your electricity manipulation thing but here to resists ability character needs to resists the Order.

Anos specifically states His Magic doesn't Follow Order where in this context

Nosgalia Abilities is all magic in the world/ reality is under Nosgalia control and it should obey him because that's his order. That's the rule of the world. Why wouldn't Resisting that wouldn't be Resistance to law manipulation?

Resisting a set rules is clearly Resistance to Law Manipulation however I see it.

 

[Agnaa]

The thing is Every Order is accepted as CM type 1 and Law Manipulation. Each God has different Orders that's all.

Law and Concepts of time
Law and Concept of Bondage
Law and Concept of end

If a feat specifically mentioned as Order of Bondage why would we remove that law and concepts and just give specific ability. I get your electricity manipulation thing but here to resists ability character needs to resists the Order.

They don't; they can either resist the cause or the effects.

Sometimes the effects are so vague that we just index the effects under the cause.

It's not removing the law and concepts, it's saying that there's another option, and going with that one instead.

Anos specifically states His Magic doesn't Follow Order where in this context

This is a good start, but sounds too vague, like it could be bragging rather than establishing an authentic immunity to every single Order in the verse, to be used.

Nosgalia Abilities is all magic in the world/ reality is under Nosgalia control and it should obey him because that's his order. That's the rule of the world. Why wouldn't Resisting that wouldn't be law manipulation?

Because those laws have effects, and those effects can be resisted instead.

Resisting a set rules is clearly Resistance to Law Manipulation however I see it.

If Anos was clearly said or implied to be resisting the rules, rather than the effects of them, then it would qualify for law manip. But that evidence hasn't been provided.

And frankly, from the stuff I've seen, it seems like he's not just immune to Orders. From the scans posted, he seemed affected by "Order of Destruction" to some extent, but was able to endure it enough to steal that power before it killed him.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Also Time God Can't use God of end abilities and vice versa. There is no such thing as Anahem using time Manipulation. God A can't use God B powers. There is a God of future itself she can't use God Of past abilities.

Nosgalia is Father of All Gods and he can use all Gods abilities. He is exceptional but not those. Infact Anos Resisting Nosgalia Order is greater than anyone Resisting Anahem Order or Bondage God Order.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They don't; they can either resist the cause or the effects.

Sometimes the effects are so vague that we just index the effects under the cause.

It's not removing the law and concepts, it's saying that there's another option, and going with that one instead.

Well it's like Saying Order of Bondage= some other abilities not Law and Concepts of Bondage
Be like Yogiri Death Manipulation And CM = Only Death manipulation without CM.

Like you said if Yogiri uses death manipulation and character resists it they would get Death manip and cm same goes here. CM and law manipulation based on whatever they resists.

This is a good start, but sounds too vague, like it could be bragging rather than establishing an authentic immunity to every single Order in the verse, to be used.

Because those laws have effects, and those effects can be resisted instead.

Yes. If he only Resists Effect sure but he is resisting the order itself.

Nosgalia Words has power which can't be resisted as multiple times stated. Word of God is absolute and All magic in the World is his ally when he using the words. That's his Law and Concepts.

If Anos was clearly said or implied to be resisting the rules, rather than the effects of them, then it would qualify for law manip. But that evidence hasn't been provided.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1118282124609466429/1118284070904930344/Screenshot_20230614-013501.png

And frankly, from the stuff I've seen, it seems like he's not just immune to Orders. From the scans posted, he seemed affected by "Order of Destruction" to some extent, but was able to endure it enough to steal that power before it killed him.

Why would he immune to order Resistance can be varied depending on the concept.

Guardian Gods power < Gods < Nosgalia < God of Destruction.

Obviously you can't expect Anos to not take any damage from strongest god of the world.

 

[Agnaa]

Well it's like Saying Order of Bondage= some other abilities not Law and Concepts of Bondage
Be like Yogiri Death Manipulation And CM = Only Death manipulation without CM.

Like you said if Yogiri uses death manipulation and character resists it they would get Death manip and cm same goes here. CM and law manipulation based on whatever they resists.

Not resisting those abilities in general but only resisting those abilities in tandem.

You could index it that way, but y'all are arguing for a general resistance to all concept manipulation, which is incorrect.

That's a feat for Nosgalia, not Anos.

Yes. If he only Resists Effect sure but he is resisting the order itself.

Nosgalia Words has power which can't be resisted as multiple times stated. Word of God is absolute and All magic in the World is his ally when he using the words. That's his Law and Concepts.

You have not established that Anos has resisted the "order", rather than the effects.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1118282124609466429/1118284070904930344/Screenshot_20230614-013501.png

That's exactly what I mean. That's him delivering a cool line about winning, not establishing an immunity.

Why would he immune to order Resistance can be varied depending on the concept.

Guardian Gods power < Gods < Nosgalia < God of Destruction.

Obviously you can't expect Anos to not take any damage from strongest god of the world.

Fair enough ig, but your evidence for widespread immunity is stuff like "I don't take orders from anyone" which would, if taken seriously, apply to everyone.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Not resisting those abilities in general but only resisting those abilities in tandem.

You could index it that way, but y'all are arguing for a general resistance to all concept manipulation, which is incorrect.

Not all Conceptual Manipulation.

緊縛牢獄の鉄格子が、今度は俺の周囲に積み重なる。

　エレオノールたちへ向けたものよりも遙かに多く、不格好で巨大な檻を構築していく。

　牢屋が完成すれば、檻の四隅から放たれた赤鎖が、＜魔黒雷帝ジラスド＞を走らせている鎖に巻きついた。

　直後、漆黒の稲妻は前に進まず、赤い鎖が巻きついた場所で不自然に止まった。

「鎖に触れてはいけませんっ。その子は、拘束と停滞を司る緊縛神。万物は秩序の鎖にて縛られ、停滞を余儀なくされますっ！」

The bars of the bondage prison now pile up around me.

Far more than the ones that had been directed at Eleonore and the others, they were building a huge, awkward cage.

Once the prison is complete, the red chains released from the four corners of the cage wrap around the chains conducting <Jirasd>.

Immediately after, the jet-black lightning did not move forward, but stopped unnaturally at the place where the red chains were wrapped around.

"Do not touch the chains! That child is the God of Bondage, who presides over restraint and stagnation. All things are bound by the chains of order and forced to stagnate!"

It is the concept of restraint and stagnation. All things are forced to stagnate. There's no body control anywhere. Ennesuone never said she couldn't move so it's not body control nor paralysis.

---

That's a feat for Nosgalia, not Anos.

I don't understand what you mean by this because in the scan Anos states his Magic doesn't Follow Order. Not that Nosgalia doesn't follow Order.

You have not established that Anos has resisted the "order", rather than the effects.

Word = Order
Anos states and was un affected by Nosgalia words.

That's exactly what I mean. That's him delivering a cool line about winning, not establishing an immunity.

No check the scan again. Nosgalia orders Stop and then claims gods words is absolute. Like we already established his Words are order itself. Anos didn't stopped

You can't expect Anos to says " I am resisting your word" that.would make it cringe and battle boarding series

He just acted cool but we need to take a look at the feat behind the context. Nosgalia Ordered and Anos Didn't affected.

Fair enough ig, but your evidence for widespread immunity is stuff like "I don't take orders from anyone" which would, if taken seriously, apply to everyone.

I mean it may look at he is just boasting around but I am not trying to show that line as evidence. What I am saying is him trying to act cool meanwhile also Resisting Nosgalia Order.

It's just MGK is not all about battle boarding that Shu wouldn't spam things like
"I am using order to attack you" or "I am Resisting your order"

We need to look at the context.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

緊縛神ウェズネーラが膨大な魔力を発すれば、赤、青、黄、緑の鎖がそれぞれ魔法陣から飛び出してきた。

「＜緊縛檻鎖縄牢獄エゲルツ・エングドメラ＞ッ！！」

＜破滅の魔眼＞にてそれを睨もうとすれば、赤い鎖が巨大に膨れあがり、俺の視界を覆った。

次の瞬間、四本の鎖は、俺の体に巻きついていた。

「ほうら、もうお前は逃れられない。赤鎖せきさは魔力を縛り、青鎖せいさは体を縛り、黄鎖おうさが五感を縛り、緑鎖りょくさが思考を縛る。＜緊縛檻鎖縄牢獄エゲルツ・エングドメラ＞に縛られれば、魔法を使うことも、歩くことも、見ることも、まともに考えることすらできやしないんだっ！」

＜緊縛檻鎖縄牢獄エゲルツ・エングドメラ＞の鎖が俺をきつく縛りつける。

五感が縛られ、見ることもできず、触った感触さえない。

When the bondage god Wesnera emitted his enormous magical power, red, blue, yellow, and green chains each flew out of the magic circle.

"Bondage Cage Chain Prison <Egertz Engdomera>!!!!"

As I tried to glare at it with the magic eye of destruction, the red chain swelled up to a huge size and covered my vision.

The next moment, the four chains were wrapped around my body.

"There, you can no longer escape. The red chain binds your magic, the blue chain binds your body, the yellow chain binds your senses, and the green chain binds your thoughts. If you are bound in <Egertz Engdomera, you cannot use magic, walk, see, or even think properly!"

The chains of the <Egertz Engdomera> bind me tightly.

My senses are bound, I cannot see, I cannot touch.

There is a way out.

However, perhaps because my thoughts were bound by the green chain, I could not reach some of the escape routes that I knew existed.

Before anyone comes with it's body control, God's cannot do what is outside their Law. They're bound to their Order down to their very actions and thoughts. So Wesnera isn't manipulating the body, He's applying the concept of restraint and stagnation to those things and thus it requires CM & Law resistance to resist.

 

[Agnaa]

Not all Conceptual Manipulation.

It is the concept of restraint and stagnation. All things are forced to stagnate. There's no body control anywhere. Ennesuone never said she couldn't move so it's not body control nor paralysis.

What I'm trying to get across is that, if by "resistance to concept manip" you mean "resistance to concept manip when used to do these specific things" then sure, but people seemed to be arguing for something much broader, and to alleviate confusion, it seems better to not mention concept manip separately.

I don't understand what you mean by this because in the scan Anos states his Magic doesn't Follow Order. Not that Nosgalia doesn't follow Order.

Oh, I thought you were referring to the earlier statements in that, the "all magic in this world is my ally" stuff.

Then sure, his magic resists power null done through concept manip.

If a character from another verse tried to power null by applying the concept of "non-functional" on his magic, we wouldn't say "it works because Anos doesn't resist concept manip".

No check the scan again. Nosgalia orders Stop and then claims gods words is absolute. Like we already established his Words are order itself. Anos didn't stopped

You can't expect Anos to says " I am resisting your word" that.would make it cringe and battle boarding series

He just acted cool but we need to take a look at the feat behind the context. Nosgalia Ordered and Anos Didn't affected.

And not being affected could be done by resisting multiple things in the scene.

I agree that making it more explicit likely would've been cringe, but that applies to literally every series. Getting high-tiers and OP hax pretty much requires being very explicit in ways that are cringe.

Before anyone comes with it's body control, God's cannot do what is outside their Law. They're bound to their Order down to their very actions and thoughts. So Wesnera isn't manipulating the body, He's applying the concept of restraint and stagnation to those things and thus it requires CM & Law resistance to resist.

That's not sufficient. We index things based on their effects, not just their causes. That cause (applying the concepts of restraint and stagnation) has other effects (creating chains, restricting magic, restricting the body, restricting the senses, restricting the mind) which we'd also index separately (Creation, Power Nullification, Body Control, Sense Manipulation, Mind Manipulation).