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First LN profile Upgrade for MGK

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Type 1 CM

Agree: @Deagonx, @Dereck03, @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Theglassman12, @Qawsedf234
Neutral: @DarkGrath

Power Modification

Agree: @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Deagonx
Neutral:

Fate Manipulation

Agree: @Dereck03, @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Theglassman12, @Deagonx, @DarkGrath
Neutral: @Qawsedf234

Resistance to Order via Resistance to Time Stop

Agree: @Dereck03
Disagree: @Deagonx, @Theglassman12
Neutral: @Qawsedf234, @Elizhaa, @DarkGrath

A lot of people here have said things along the line of "if (x) is true, then I could accept ( y )", which I've listed as being neutral. Those in the neutral section should probably elaborate more on their opinions if they are willing. With all that said, more input is probably needed, except for maybe resistance to order.
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Would any of the neutral folk in this tally be willing to look a bit closer and offer a deciding vote where needed?
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
Immortality gained by tide to Providence that's clearly how destinies works.
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It's not. I'm not sure who told you that it is, but it really isn't.

EldemadeDityjon said:
Anos removed the character from existence who had Resistance to fate manipulation so how that's not fate manipulation?
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Having resistance to fate manipulation doesn't mean you resist anything else. A character with resistance to fate manipulation has no innate protection against death, erasure, or anything that isn't manipulation of fate.

EldemadeDityjon said:
Not to my burden because me and dereck already explained why Logic Manipulation is only specific ability of Venozdonor.
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If you make a claim then it is your burden to prove it. You can tell me something has been explained as much as you want, but what I'm asking for is scans supporting your claims.

Fixxed said:
Bruh the author literally write "god's fate..." after introduced order as providence. Providence in here is literally fate
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I've gone back and looked at the scans, and I don't know what you're referring to here. Even then, fate and providence being mentioned in the same sentence doesn't mean they're the same thing.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Then can you just post scans of this so we can move on? If you have already and I overlooked it, just link to the original post.
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Don't know why it isn't Power Modification. As this has been explained many people who are knowledgeable about this fiction. Anos completely modified Order of Destruction, he changed the direction of order itself from the original order to destroy everything in the world such as matter and existence, completely redirected by Anos into a weapon that destroys only reason, therefore the world is released from the order of destruction.
 
Verrel966 said:
Don't know why it isn't Power Modification. As this has been explained many people who are knowledgeable about this fiction. Anos completely modified Order of Destruction, he changed the direction of order itself from the original order to destroy everything in the world such as matter and existence, completely redirected by Anos into a weapon that destroys only reason, therefore the world is released from the order of destruction.
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1. Post scans of that then, I've been asking that for like half a page now.

2. Even if that were 100% true, the point of contention is that Anos just took an ambient effect leaking from Abernyu and controlled it, which we do not consider power modification. This is the reason Qaws disagreed with it, so I don't think the evidence above would be enough. Speaking of, I completely forgot to include Qaws in my vote tally for power modification, so I listed him under disagree.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I've gone back and looked at the scans, and I don't know what you're referring to here. Even then, fate and providence being mentioned in the same sentence doesn't mean they're the same thing.
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Bruh.. i dont know what you thinking about. But this just simple
providence then author mentioned about fate

Dont too hard for think, it just will being you far and far from what that actually mean
 
Fixxed said:
Bruh.. i dont know what you thinking about. But this just simple
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Don't make more statements like this, please. It's not helpful. Just agree to disagree and let the evidence speak for itself.
 
I've been quite busy, but I'm looking through the thread now at the information that's been provided since my last comments, so I'm hoping I'll be able to respond thoroughly either later this evening or tomorrow.

That being said, having entered this thread through the most recent notification, I do have one thing to say immediately.

Tatsumi504 said:
Dark most certainly didn't disagree with fate manip
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To quote myself:
As for Resistance to Fate Manipulation, I'm not even sure what the argument is trying to say. Several people in this thread have put forward different arguments and interpretations, and all of them are rather weak... I've re-read all the sources suggesting Resistance to Fate Manipulation a couple of times, and none of them are particularly convincing.
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I would say anyone reading my replies can very clearly see I did disagree with Fate Manipulation. Compared to some things which I can reasonably brush off as misinterpretation, I'm frankly uncertain how you came to the conclusion you did. Even in my follow-up reply, I was clear on the fact that I didn't see any reason to agree with it due to problems with both literalness and relevancy.

That aside, whether I will agree or disagree with Fate Manipulation now depends on what the new arguments are.
 
DarkGrath said:
I would say anyone reading my replies can very clearly see I did disagree with Fate Manipulation. Compared to some things which I can reasonably brush off as misinterpretation, I'm frankly uncertain how you came to the conclusion you did. Even in my follow-up reply, I was clear on the fact that I didn't see any reason to agree with it due to problems with both literalness and relevancy.
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What you quoted now and your follow up reply is referring to resistance to fate manipulation. I'm not talking about that, I'm referring to only the existence of fate manipulation for the God's itself.
 
I don't think people are disagreeing over gods having fate manipulation, it's more of an issue about whether or not order is fate manipulation.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I couldn't sleep and I have a crippling soda addiction so I decided to knock this out at 1AM. I tried to keep this unbiased, though MG supporters are free to add more context if I missed any. That said, I excluded things which weren't really pertinent to the discussion at hand, so some previously posted scans will be missing.

Order as a Type 1 Concept

To begin, I accept that Jerga's order - that of the hatred of demons - is type 1. @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless explained it very well in this post, so I won't contest it. However, the issue starts with attempting to scale all other instances of order to Jerga. Jerga's whole deal is very unique, considering he isn't like other gods in that he is/is the embodiment of order; Rather, he had to turn his own source into order, which is something no other character does. This makes scaling the orders of other gods to Jerga's order very questionable, since his order was created under special circumstances.

There are then two arguments that run counter to that. The first is this statement, which is that Jerga's order was second only to that of the gods, implying gods' orders are superior in some way. There is also a statement that Jerga had become a shard of the world's order, implying that his type 1 concept was only a fragment of a greater concept. The first statement is quite vague; We do not know how or why Jerga's order is inferior, so it's difficult to infer that this can be translated to "Jerga's order is type 1, and gods' orders are superior, so they have to be type 1 too". The second scan is odd, since it isn't saying that Jerga's order is a fragment of a greater order, just that Jerga's magic had become a fragment of the order of the world (which is Jerga's source).

In short, it is the OP's belief that the two statements comparing Jerga's order indicate all other order is superior to a type 1 concept, while I believe both statements should not be used in this way as they do not elaborate on the nature of the superiority. Thus, in my opinion it would be best to index each individual order separately, rather than attempting to generalize all of them.

Order as Fate

The OP originally proposed fate manipulation as an extension order because of this, where order is equated with providence. The OP also said they'd remove this part from the original proposals, but they still haven't done that?

There is also the repeated idea that gods control the fates of those below them, as shown here and here. The scans speak for themselves, I think, so there's not much I can add here.

Finally, it is stated that when Abernyu fell, the order of destruction fell alongside her. This caused destruction itself to halt, preventing those who should have died from dying, and those who should've fallen to ruin survived. The idea here is that, because these people were destined to die, and that the alteration of order changed their fate, order should constitute fate manipulation.

My issues are as follows. First is that "providence" just refers to divine protection, not any sort of manipulation of fate.

Secondly, I'll start with the second batch of scans. These mostly state that the order of the gods is the absolute, unchangeable force. While that may support fate manipulation, they fit law manipulation equally well, so from my perspective it seems more like it's talking about the laws gods impose on the world. The first scan is definitely fate manipulation, but the big issue is that at no point does it say that order and fate are the same thing, just that gods control fate.

For the final part, it's a simple matter of the concept of destruction ceasing, thereby preventing things from being destroyed. This is not fate manipulation, it's more akin to someone dropping a plate and then "changing the future" by not being able to eat off the plate after the fact. If a concept doesn't exist, then the things relying on that concept will not work, extending into the future, though this is by no means controlling fate.

I'm also aware that Dereck has posted scans debunking this point. However, these come from the web novel version of Maou Gakuin, and as the page currently indexed is exclusively for the light novel version, those scans should not be used.

Power Modification

This hasn't been discussed at all, so no defense from the OP has been made. In this scan, Anos was able to make the order of destruction his own, by taking the power leaking from Abernyu and creating Venuzdonoa with it. The issue is, Abernyu was turned into a castle, so this is more like taking an ambient magical phenomena and manipulating it, not modifying someone else's power.

Resisting Order via Resisting Time Stop

In these scans, Anos is able to resist Ivis' time stop. The argument from the OP is that, since Ivis utilises the order of time, then Anos would have to be resisting the effects of order as well (granting resistance to CM1/2, fate hax, law hax, and so on). This is further supported by the statement that Ivis created a new world where time is frozen, implying the institution of a new reality with differing laws, and Anos was able to resist the laws being imposed on him.

My contentions are twofold. For the latter, it is a common turn of phrase to say a time stop creates a "world where time has frozen" (even my own verse does this, for example). This is not intended as a way of saying a new reality with different laws was created, so it shouldn't really apply here. Of course, it isn't really a "world" at all, just a bubble shaped AoE. The former is more complicated, since we don't typically give resistances to the mechanisms of a power source, rather, we give resistances based on the actual applications of the power source. For example, characters in Guilty Gear and Digimon use information manipulation as a basis for magic, but not every character who resists a magical attack also resists information manipulation. Or for another example, characters in Touhou (please do not derail this thread talking about Touhou again, this is just an example) create attacks by giving concepts to them, but that doesn't mean every character who resists a regular attack would resist concept manipulation.

So this would only be resistance to time stop, and not resistance to order, since order is just a mechanism through which the time stop is used. By the way, as a side note, Anos currently has resistance to law manipulation and CM1 based on this:

Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1. Can resist abilities that stems purely from Order)

If the above logic is rejected, this would need to be removed from his profile.
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Also, here's my recap post from earlier if it helps any.
 
DarkGrath said:
I've been quite busy, but I'm looking through the thread now at the information that's been provided since my last comments, so I'm hoping I'll be able to respond thoroughly either later this evening or tomorrow.

That being said, having entered this thread through the most recent notification, I do have one thing to say immediately.


To quote myself:

I would say anyone reading my replies can very clearly see I did disagree with Fate Manipulation. Compared to some things which I can reasonably brush off as misinterpretation, I'm frankly uncertain how you came to the conclusion you did. Even in my follow-up reply, I was clear on the fact that I didn't see any reason to agree with it due to problems with both literalness and relevancy.

That aside, whether I will agree or disagree with Fate Manipulation now depends on what the new arguments are.
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Before anyone misunderstands. I am not arguing Order = Fate but instead gods are tied to fate and to remove them you need to remove the fate they are tied to.

Jerga who became the Pseudo Order his fate was tied to the order as you can see in the scan. Same goes for other gods they are born and dies according to order. Here that order is refering to fate. Should have fate manipulation to remove Aberneyu from the destiny she was binded too.

My arguments was only about Anos so I hope Fujiwara don't brings up other arguments regarding order = FATE or not. I am arguing Gods are tied to Order/Fate and Anos removed Aberneyu destiny and made her his own spell.

 
Gonna apply the accepted abilities (Conceptual Manipulation and Law Manipulation for Anos and Fate Manipulation for Venozdonor) and close the thread.

Rejected abilities will be addressed when the new Volumes translation will be out.
 
ayo what

Fate manipulation was rejected. You can't apply it. Also, you need to remove Anos' resistance to CM and law hax as that was rejected as well.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
ayo what

Fate manipulation was rejected. You can't apply it. Also, you need to remove Anos' resistance to CM and law hax as that was rejected as well.
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Fate Manipulation for Venozdonor which is already in the profile but not applied not for other things. Even you agreed with that and Anos Resistance in the profile didn't got Rejected. My argument has nothing to with anything on the profile. Feel free to drop a seperate Downgrade thread.
 
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I forgot about the second argument for fate hax, yeah it's fine. It's just been a while and the argument in the OP is what was rejected.

However, Anos' resistances were completely rejected and it's dishonest to claim otherwise. I'll remove them from the profile myself if I have to.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I forgot about the second argument for fate hax, yeah it's fine. It's just been a while and the argument in the OP is what was rejected.

However, Anos' resistances were completely rejected and it's dishonest to claim otherwise. I'll remove them from the profile myself if I have to.
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No. Its dishonest to claim this CRT and profile resistance are same. Again My CRT has nothing to do with whatever explanation in the profile. Have you even checked the profile? If you remove them without a CRT i will just report you for this. Again I am suggesting you to do a fair and square CRT and remove it officially instead of mixing things up which aren't discussed in this CRT. Time stop has nothing to do with whatever listed in the profile. Anos magic can resists Nosgalia ability which is clearly mentioned as Order. I won't be bothered to further argue regarding that because it's not in my OP. Anos resistance explanation in profile has nothing to do with my thread. Both are different.

Again drop a Downgrade CRT otherwise I will just have to report you to RVR. Don't feel bad if I did because you removed the ability without any official CRT accepted.
 
Report me then. Because Anos has resistance to CM and law hax from resisting order-based abilities. Anos resisting fate hax off of resisting Ivis' order of time was explicitly rejected. Therefore, Anos has no basis for resisting order and it ought to be removed. I'll take care of it in a couple hours.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Report me then. Because Anos has resistance to CM and law hax from resisting order-based abilities. Anos resisting fate hax off of resisting Ivis' order of time was explicitly rejected. Therefore, Anos has no basis for resisting order and it ought to be removed. I'll take care of it in a couple hours.
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Where in profile states its based on Ivis or Eugola? Also Anos doesn't have resistance to fate manipulation. If I see it being removed then I am sure to report you. Because Profile never talks about Ivis or Eugola Raviaz regarding Anos Law and CM type 1 resistance. Also I can apply the changes myself in my CRT i don't need your help.
 
The law and CM resistance use the exact same basis as the fate resistance which was denied (resisting abilities based on order).

Go ahead and report me right now if you feel so strongly about it.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Report me then. Because Anos has resistance to CM and law hax from resisting order-based abilities. Anos resisting fate hax off of resisting Ivis' order of time was explicitly rejected. Therefore, Anos has no basis for resisting order and it ought to be removed. I'll take care of it in a couple hours.
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Nah, you can't remove resistance to CM and Law manipulation from the profile you have to make separate thread for that.

It's different from what discussed here and also anos having resistance to fate hax did you even see the profile?
 
Godsatoshi23 said:
Nah, you can't remove resistance to CM and Law manipulation from the profile you have to make separate thread for that.

It's different from what discussed here and also anos having resistance to fate hax did you even see the profile?
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She didn't even bothered to read my reply. LMAO she probably thinks only Ivis and Eugola Raviaz has Law Manipulation and CM type 1.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
She didn't even bothered to read my reply. LMAO she probably thinks only Ivis and Eugola Raviaz has Law Manipulation and CM type 1.
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Yeah, I read what she said and also noticed how much she is desperate in removing resistance to fate.

I would rather suggest her checking the profile first than commenting something here which is not even there.
 
I've applied the removal of the resistances, but I'll leave everything else to verse supporters since they're better equipped to provide the necessary references.
 
Deagonx said:
.
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I have something to clarify.

You have disagreed for resistance to law and CM manipulation based on only what is in this thread and the order that mentioned here only, right?

Edit: Sorry, for troubling you but I checked the whole thread and saw you never disagreed with order. you only asked for the proof that time stop is based on order or not and you only disagreed with that particular.
 
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