Metal Gear Rising Upgrades

[Skeleturtle]

Upgraded version of this thread. These upgrades should apply to almost everyone from Metal Gear Rising and are based on a couple of my calculations.

#1: Armstrong punches earth and makes lava erupt.

Basically that means that Armsrong gets lifted from his low 7-C tier to 6-B, with everyone who scale to him as well. There are at least two reasons why the country level result should not be disregarded as an outlier:

1). Armstrong didn't show any definite limits on his attack potency that don't rely on powerscaling from other characters,

2). Metal Gear verse is a self-contained verse, meaning we should use the higher end feats instead of the lowest end ones.

Now about the character upgrades themselves.

Senator Armstrong: striking strength change from TJ to ZJ, attack potency from small town level to country level (28,35 teratons), durability from small town level to country level, probably more with hardened body (was unfazed by Raiden's attack barrage, while it was shown at least twice that they have comparable strength), tier change from 7-C to 6-B.

Raiden: striking strength change from TJ to ZJ (twice during his battle with Armstrong they both struggled to overpower each other in physical strength contest, was able to hurt non-hardened body Armstrong with physical attacks), attack potency from small town level to country level, durability from small town level to country level (survived Armstrong's consecutive punches), tier change from 7-C to 6-B.

Jetstream Sam: striking strength change from TJ to ZJ (was able to overpower Armstrong twice during their battle and even managed to briefly KO him, was able to overpower Raiden during their fight), attack potency from small town level to country level, probably higher with the use of his Gun Sheath (managed to break through Armstrong's block and KO him through his hardened body), durability from small town level to country level (survived a series of Armstrong's punches), tier change from 7-C to 6-B.

Monsoon: striking strength change from TJ to ZJ (Raiden himself said that if not for Jack the Ripper's reawakening Monsoon would have killed him), attack potency from small town level to country level, durability from small town level to country level, tier change from 8-A to 6-B.

Same should appeal to Blade Wolf (survived a kick from enraged Armstrong, was able to trade blows with Raiden), Sundowner and Mistral (both managed to fight on par with Raiden).

#2: Raiden's speed, Blade Mode speed and the Ripper Mode power.

The first calculation should lift Raiden, Armstrong, Sam, Monsoon, Sundowner and Mistral's speed from mach 2000+ to mach 2976, still MHS+, with the exeption of Blade Wolf, who should be said to be faster than mach 2976 (Raiden himself admitted that Blade Wolf was faster than him during their battle, BW was able to blitz Mistral).

The Blade Mode calculation should appeal ONLY to Raiden, Sam and Blade Wolf, and should be mentioned in brackets, like that: (Sub-Relativistic (mach 29762) in Blade Mode). It only applies to these characters cause they are shown to have Blade Mode in-game, and using the Blade Mode basically allows them to see other MHS+ characters without Blade Mode (Armstrong, Winds of Destruction) in slow motion.

The Ripper Mode info should apply ONLY to Raiden in Ripper Mode, and I suggest adding the Jack the Ripper Raiden into the key. The statistics would be identical to MGRR Raiden's custom body, but with striking strength lifted to ZJ+ (x7 power boost from base, 198,45 teratons from scaling to Senator Armstrong). Such a boost makes sense in-universe as well, since Raiden was able to utterly own Monsoon so bad he was begging for mercy while it was said by Raiden himsef that if not for Jack the Ripper reawakening Monsoon would have killed him.

Also, I feel like Raiden's standart equipment should mention the various weapons he gains from bosses and all the blades he carries with himself, because in-game it is clearly shown that he can change his arsenal any moment he wants.

Hoping on your approval.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Bump.

 

[LeonRaidenYun]

Bump.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Bump.

What do you think of the upgrade proposal?

 

[LeonRaidenYun]

I pretty much think most of it is reasonable. I'm just waiting for what others might say before giving a final opinion.

 

[Skeleturtle]

I pretty much think most of it is reasonable. I'm just waiting for what others might say before giving a final opinion.

Most of it? So what is questionable in your opinion?

 

[Alakabamm]

I'm just going to throw a couple things to the wall to see if they stick (note: I have not played this game, this is devil's advocacy).

1st calc: In this calc, the calc'er claims that Armstrong needed to have pushed up magma from an underground chamber 60 km below himself, however:

a) Armstrong appears to have this same substance on his fist. Why would he be keeping magma on his fist?

b) The calc'er himself admits that this same substance appeared on a helipad during a fight

c) It doesn't appear to definitively be magma, instead resembling geysers of fire more

d) Even if it is magma, why can't he have just made some surface rock molten with KE and brought it up?

e) Why can't it be artistic license usage of nanomachines?

Second calc: In this calc, the calc'er claims that Raiden needed to have overcome the kinetic energy of the missile to move, however:

a) isn't this a form of calc stacking (using the kinetic energy of an assumed speed object in another character's speed feat)?

 

[Skeleturtle]

I'm just going to throw a couple things to the wall to see if they stick (note: I have not played this game, this is devil's advocacy).
1st calc: In this calc, the calc'er claims that Armstrong needed to have pushed up magma from an underground chamber 60 km below himself, however:

a) Armstrong appears to have this same substance on his fist. Why would he be keeping magma on his fist?

b) The calc'er himself admits that this same substance appeared on a helipad during a fight

c) It doesn't appear to definitively be magma, instead resembling geysers of fire more

d) Even if it is magma, why can't he have just made some surface rock molten with KE and brought it up?

e) Why can't it be artistic license usage of nanomachines?

Second calc: In this calc, the calc'er claims that Raiden needed to have overcome the kinetic energy of the missile to move, however:

a) isn't this a form of calc stacking (using the kinetic energy of an assumed speed object in another character's speed feat)?

1). a). It's not magma however. During the final portions of the fight we can see that his fist is just coated with energy, not covered in magma.

b). Gameplay mechanics. In the helipad version of a fight the attack was modified to look just like a column of fire, without the lava splashes. Also, in cutscenes after the fight the helipad is completely undamaged.

c). You could see the splashes of lava in the base of the fire column. Also, it's confirmed by the game manual that it's an actual lava.

d). The word lava (which, once again, was used in game manual) is used specifically to refer to the natural molten rock which is expelled from the volcanoes. The alternate interpretation says that lava is magma that reached the surface from beneath the mantle. In both cases it specifies the natural origin of it.

e). Nanomachines in Metal Gear verse had never shown these capabilities before however. Even with all the jokes and memes about them being deus ex nanomachines they can't be used to explain everything. The nanomachines used in Armstrong were only shown to be capable of hardening in response to physical trauma and empower user with some kind of energy. And it was specifically stated in manual that "he punches ground, making the lava erupt". See for yourself.

2). a). As I said in the calc page and as you could possibly notice, the kinetic energy of the missles only changes the total speed of Raiden from mach 2976.297376093295 to mach 2976.3001030958985211. That difference could easily be disregarded if you feel like counting the kinetic energy would be a form of calc stacking.

 

[Tzula]

bumpy hump.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I read through the first page of comments from the Narutoforum, and it seems like people (including ChaosTheory123) almost uniformly agree that it is extremely inconsistent with the rest of the game, and could have several other explanations than reaching down to a deep magma chamber.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Well, I read through the first page of comments from the Narutoforum, and it seems like people (including ChaosTheory123) almost uniformly agree that it is extremely inconsistent with the rest of the game, and could have several other explanations than reaching down to a deep magma chamber.

It can't be called inconsistent since these characters have very few destructive capability feats that don't rely on scaling.

As for the other explanations, the game manual explicitly states that the lava emerges as the result of his punches. Lava, not just molten rock. There is a clear difference between these two terms. Look at Oxford Dictionary definition for the word "Lava".

 

[Lina_Shields]

About time these guys moved up higher; had a hard time believing that they were only 7-C based on what we've seen so far (especially moving at mach 2900+)

So by power scaling, where would Sundowner and Jetstream Sam stand at? (6-B? or high 6-C?)

edit: 6-B sounds fair enough, I was just concerned about the other characters because there is a huge gap (or was it speed) in power between Blade Mode Raiden/Armstrong and other characters (7x I think)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that it might be all right then, but let's wait to see what the rest of the staff thinks first.

 

[Skeleturtle]

6-B or even high 6-B for Armstrong, Raiden, Sam and Monsoon because they benefit from scaling from Armstrong (both Raiden and Sam being able to match and even surpass Armstrong's strength, take his blows and generally keep up with him, Monsoon was stated by Raiden to be stronger than him and that Raiden would have died by his hand if not for Jack the Ripper's reawakening). Blade Wolf, Mistral and Sundowner will be at the same tier or probably little lower because, well, scaling doesn't work in their favour - BW got his ass kicked by both Sam and Raiden (and Armstrong too, twice), Mistral and Sundowner got beaten by Raiden fairly easily, Sam implying himself to be stronger than Sundowner during the duel with Raiden ("How did you even manage to kill Sundowner?"). So yeah, 6-B.

 

[Skeleturtle]

edit: 6-B sounds fair enough, I was just concerned about the other characters because there is a huge gap (or was it speed) in power between Blade Mode Raiden/Armstrong and other characters (7x I think)

7x strength boost from base applies only to Ripper Mode Raiden. Everyone else gets scaled from Armstrong and base Raiden (not the Blade Mode either). The x10 speed boost applies only to Blade Mode users (Raiden, Sam, Wolf), but should be mentioned separately from their normal speed due to Blade Mode essentialy working as limited power-up.

 

[Alakabamm]

OK, so I went ahead and looked over everything again.

The fist: It appears that this red energy on his fist only appears there prior to the red sustance erupting from the ground...this seems highly coincidental and very strange to consider them "just" nanomachines. What if the explanation is more Iron Man 3 esque, that the nanomachines "heat up" his body and allow him to shoot geysers of flame? I can see this as an artistic way of dealing with the issue.

Lava splashes: I don't see it. It looks like sparks.

Gameguide: What you linked is not the official gameguide. It looks to be written up by an outside party (GamerGuides.com) and thus seems to assume that the stuff coming out is "lava." This makes it irrelevant that the definition of "lava" is molten rock originating from a magma chamber underground, because "lava" was a subjective choice by the author. Another way you can tell this guide is subjective is because, on the very page you linked, it is originally called "lava/fire" - the writers of the guide did not know what it is.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I can see the first calc the (City level one) being accepted, but the Country level one seems like a really big outlier, and a lot of people in the comments section seem to feel the same way.

 

[Alakabamm]

Forgot to mention it, but the speed calc looks legit (ripper + speed upgrade + 10% time slow).

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. The city level one seems more reliable then.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I wonder, if Blade Mode Raiden is able to move about 10x faster than base raiden like someone else above mentioned, would it be plausible to use the kinetic energy equation to scale destructive capacity?

For example, if Blade Mode Raiden is 10x faster than base Raiden, KE = 0.5mv^2, which means if Raiden becomes 10x faster, his attack potency would increase by 50x (not 10x).

Any thoughts? (everyone could still be 6-B, but yea)

 

[Alakabamm]

@Crazystarf, using kinetic energy in that way leads to absurd values for faster characters and is probably banned by this wiki. It's not consistent at all.

Also, Blade Mode Raizen isn't faster in combat speed, he's faster in reaction speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Kinetic energy and attack potency seldom interact in fiction.

 

[Skeleturtle]

OK, so I went ahead and looked over everything again.
The fist: It appears that this red energy on his fist only appears there prior to the red sustance erupting from the ground...this seems highly coincidental and very strange to consider them "just" nanomachines. What if the explanation is more Iron Man 3 esque, that the nanomachines "heat up" his body and allow him to shoot geysers of flame? I can see this as an artistic way of dealing with the issue.

Lava splashes: I don't see it. It looks like sparks.

Gameguide: What you linked is not the official gameguide. It looks to be written up by an outside party (GamerGuides.com) and thus seems to assume that the stuff coming out is "lava." This makes it irrelevant that the definition of "lava" is molten rock originating from a magma chamber underground, because "lava" was a subjective choice by the author. Another way you can tell this guide is subjective is because, on the very page you linked, it is originally called "lava/fire" - the writers of the guide did not know what it is.

In final QTE Armstrong performs the same attack without punching the ground. So yeah, it's not tied with lava.

Yes, these are splashes. You can see this in the attack that I (probably wrongly) calculated as country level. The sparks don't behave this way.

I... actually didn't think that this was unnoficial guide. Dammit. I just looked through the official one and there is no mention of lava there.

Though the x10 speed in Blade Mode is still in official guide too. Weird.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Also, Blade Mode Raizen isn't faster in combat speed, he's faster in reaction speed.

Not really. During Zandatsu, when Raiden is still in Blade Mode, he can freely jump around and rip out the electrolites while everything around him seems frozen.

 

[Alakabamm]

@Skeleturtle, yea, the guide looks unoffocial. I can accept it not totally behaving like lava and the nanomachines/whatever on his fist not being tied to it, but nothing really suggests its not just molten rock tbh.

I called it reaction speed because thats what's the calc'er called it: "According to page 2 of Metal Gear Rising Strategy Guide the Blade Mode slows down time around Raiden to 10%, meaning he can react at x10 speeds from usual in Blade Mode."

He also links that strategy guide, which is strange because it is the same one from GamerGuides. Do you have the offical one in print or something?

 

[Skeleturtle]

Yeah, here is the official one. The Blade Mode bit is on page 27.

Also, the one with lava statement is totally unnoficial. It's said on their site that it has nothing to so with Konami.

I'll try to find any other info that it's actually lava. But it seems that the only thing that supports this cause for now is Occam's Razor. Because, well, it's kinda easier to explain this as erupting lava instead of the rock being melted by his punches and simultaniously thrown out of fissures created simultaniously with molten rock.

 

[ThePerpetual]

As I've said before, Country level is rather a massive outlier given the rest of the series' events and how he is portrayed in general. City level? That, I can buy. The Winds should probably stay at Multi-City Block though, barring Jetstream Sam of course, seeing as Armstrong's City level feat doesn't really scale to them. Not really sure on scaling Bladewolf to City level based on surviving a single kick from Armstrong, particularly when it KOed it as far as I can tell, either.

 

[Tzula]

So.. Is Armstrong getting a buff then?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I'm actually with Perpetual here in this case. Going by how i've seen the game series and how Raiden is in general when he's fighting(..yeah?), i just don't see him and others comparable to him going up as high as Country level. I get the meaning of AP on this site, but this just doesn't sit well with me no matter what.

I can fully agree on upgrading him to City level. This i can absolutely have no problems with.

So yeah....anybody agree or disagree on Raiden's speed calc or what?

 

[Alakabamm]

OK I just checked the guide for Blade Mode and it says that Blade Mode decreases the enemies speed by only 2x if the enemy is not weakened. Obviously that means his 10x boost is actually a conditional ability and not something that can be considered "reaction time."

 

[Alakabamm]

I'm actually with Perpetual here in this case. Going by how i've seen the game series and how Raiden is in general when he's fighting(..yeah?), i just don't see him and others comparable to him going up as high as Country level. I get the meaning of AP on this site, but this just doesn't sit well with me no matter what.
I can fully agree on upgrading him to City level. This i can absolutely have no problems with.

So yeah....anybody agree or disagree on Raiden's speed calc or what?

I agree with the speed calc but see my above post for blade mode.

 

[Tzula]

I'm actually with Perpetual here in this case. Going by how i've seen the game series and how Raiden is in general when he's fighting(..yeah?), i just don't see him and others comparable to him going up as high as Country level. I get the meaning of AP on this site, but this just doesn't sit well with me no matter what.
I can fully agree on upgrading him to City level. This i can absolutely have no problems with.

So yeah....anybody agree or disagree on Raiden's speed calc or what?

I agree with the speed calc but see my above post for blade mode.

Wait Raiden's speed right?

 

[Skeleturtle]

OK I just checked the guide for Blade Mode and it says that Blade Mode decreases the enemies speed by only 2x if the enemy is not weakened. Obviously that means his 10x boost is actually a conditional ability and not something that can be considered "reaction time."

X10 boost turns on not only if enemy is weakened. At this screen you've taken, the last two sentences. Also, that's the reason why I said it should be mentioned separately from Raiden's base speed.

 

[Alakabamm]

But what are those situations? It seems more like an ability than a boost.

 

[Skeleturtle]

Even if it's an ability, it should also be listed separately in the "speed" section.

 

[Alakabamm]

I read it. It says "a wide variety of contextual situations" and "specific attacks." I'll assume you've played the game if you're posting about it.

 

[ThePerpetual]

So, did this just sort of die or something?

 

[Lina_Shields]

Pretty much. Still supporting the fact that Armstrong dug out actual lava from the Earth though, which makes him 6-B.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Bring the DragonBalls.

 

[Skeleturtle]

The thing is, the manual I used to prove that this is an actual lava was not official. Official one doesn't mention lava at all.So the first calcis basically wrong unless someone finds info on that being lava.

Other calcs should be apropriate though.