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Metal Gear: Many Potential Changes (No Promises)

Ednaxel2

Ednaxel2

3,331
2,134

Metal Gear D's multiplier​

TX-55 was able to fight against Snake during the events of Metal Gear, forcing him to use explosive as a means to actually harming it, it's even stated to be the ultimate weapon a couple times so it should scale to the 23.55 tons (City Block level). Fast forwarding into Metal Gear 2, the Metal Gear D is outright stated to be many times more powerful ("Many times" being accepted as 4x) so it should scale to 94.2 Tons (City Block level+).
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral:
Disagree: Chariot190 @Mr._Bambu

Gray Fox tanks an vital explosion​

During Snake's fight against Gray Fox, Fox was able to tank the utter destruction of Metal Gear D while inside of it and went on to fight Snake shortly after. It's even stated in the guide for the newly released collection that the explosion shrapnel Metal Gear D and again Gray Fox was fine. This would scale the likes of Solid Snake and characters superior/equal to, or at least comparable to him up to Metal Gear D's durability.
An alternative would be the calculation which is only Building level: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ednaxel2/Gray_Fox_tanks_the_destruction_of_Metal_Gear_D
Agree: Chariot190 (Calc) Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge (Vague)
Neutral:
Disagree: @Mr._Bambu

MGS2 Raiden's multiplier​

The exoskeletons are stated to multiply the user's strength by several times ("Several times" being accepted as 3x). Raiden before the events of MGS2 is comparable to MGS1 Snake as he was trained through simulations of the Shadow Moses incident which are one to one with the actual events, with the Patriots hoping for him to turn out as the ultimate soldier after the test. Then during the events of MGS2 when he joins Foxhound, he equips the skull suit which is outfitted with an exoskeleton, thus MGS2 Raiden is >3x MGS1 Snake. If this alone gets accepted the characters would be City Block level+, but if the last two potential changes also get accepted the characters will get to Multi-City Block level much early on.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral:
Disagree: Chariot190 @Mr._Bambu

Jetstream Sam isn't "at most" City level​

Throughout the course of MGRR, the bosses gain information on the last one defeated yet will still be confident in fighting Raiden. Jetstream Sam worked alongside the winds of destruction for awhile during the events between the main story of MGRR and Sam's DLC so he should know how powerful each of them are, yet was still confident in fighting Ripper Mode Raiden knowing Monsoon and Sundonwer failed to do so. Raiden did state Sam put everything he had into the fight and wanted to kill him so badly, meaning he did take Raiden as a serious threat and didn't mess around (like in his fight against the World Marshall officers in his opening DLC) so him being confident in fighting Raiden is not him being over confident.

There are other points such as: Raiden wanting to kill Sam "Well, I'm ready for it. Monsoon interrupted us before... But this time, I'm ending it", he would of course use his Ripper Mode state if wanting to do so. Raiden being out of breath and getting up from the floor right after the fight. The official Metal Gear Versus Battle wiki stating that it is a fact that both Sam and Raiden are worthy opponents to each other (Sorry for the low quality of it, it's in Sam's featured fact). Sam being confused on Monsoon taking on Raiden, stating "huh, you're the boss" in a joking manner which could imply he wasn't confident in Monsoon winning.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral: @Mr._Bambu
Disagree:

Ripper Mode​

When Raiden uses Ripper Mode he's able to defeat enemies in a single strike, with all enemies needing to be hit with 7 strikes. Excepts being the Hammerhead enemies needing 12 strikes in base and 2 in Ripper Mode, and the Gekko enemies needing 12 strikes in base and 2 in Ripper Mode. The guide for the game actually supports this stating it "enables him to inflict far greater damage, eliminating weaker opponents almost instantly". When downgrading Raiden's statistics by downgrading from his Ripper Mode state, his base should be at least 1/12th the power of his Ripper Mode state (it being within the 7 to 12 range) so his base should be (65.875 Megatons / 12 =) 5.4895833 Megatons (Small City level+) this would also downgrade the likes of Mistral and Khamsin.
Agree: Minos_the_Judge
Neutral: Eseseso
Disagree: Chariot190, SeijiSetto @Mr._Bambu

Base Raiden is not comparable to Full Power Armstrong​

This is something used to debunk Ripper Mode's multiplier, as the current chain scaling is: Base Raiden =< Armstrong = Ripper Mode Raiden.

The reasoning for why Raiden scales comparably to Armstrong is that he's able to inflict moderate damage to him and can tank attacks, however the scenes in which he demonstrates this is against a more casual/suppressed Armstrong, until the last half where he fight Senator at his strongest. We see this as Armstrong lets his guard down: he doesn't finish Raiden off when he has the chance, helps him up the second he thinks he convinced Raiden and even hugging him (very similar to his fight against Sam). He gets more enraged after Raiden tricks as his voice shifts to being more ticked off, casually tanking hundreds of strikes from Raiden, sending Raiden into the air with one punch, and beat him up so badly he was unable to get up for a bit. Even after all of that Armstrong could possibly still have been holding taking off his glasses which could symbolize that now he's going all out (in contrast to his casually fights where he always wear his glasses). While Armstrong does state he wants to kill Raiden a few times, he said the same thing to Sam throughout their fight which we know he was more casual and had no intent to kill Sam but to recruit him. So overall it's at least: Base Raiden =< Suppressed Amrstrong < Full Power Armstrong ~ Ripper Mode Raiden. And at worst it's Base Raiden =< Suppressed Armstrong < Less Suppressed Armstrong< Full Power Armstrong ~ Ripper Mode Raiden.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge, Chariot190
Neutral: @Mr._Bambu
Disagree:


Note: A few of these changes (if accepted) will require keys being made for some characters, which is already in the works from what I've hear.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ednaxel2 said:
Thanks for this, but which parts do you agree/neutral/disagree with?
Click to expand...
Agree with everything, but don't we have ways to scale base Raiden to Monsoon? Raiden's body durability does not change, and he can harm those who harm him. Then 7-B is the basic Raiden, and the Ripper Mode is 7 times higher. Raiden defeated Monsoon easily, I don’t think that can be scaled up to the Ripper.
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Why not? If it took Character A 10 hits to kill Character B but only 1 hit with a power up, then Character A with his power up must be 10x his base
Click to expand...
Same reason why doing 60x more punches wouldn't be able to overcome a 60x AP gap.
Unless there's a type of damage stacking system involved, the amount of attacks wouldn't be linearly counted as a multiplier.
 
Minos_the_Judge said:
Agree with everything, but don't we have ways to scale base Raiden to Monsoon? Raiden's body durability does not change, and he can harm those who harm him. Then 7-B is the basic Raiden, and the Ripper Mode is 7 times higher. Raiden defeated Monsoon easily, I don’t think that can be scaled up to the Ripper.
Click to expand...
For the entire fight Raiden was in his Ripper Mode state
 
Reminder, Raiden's base durability scaling to his RM AP, would in turn circle around to his base AP scaling to his RM AP, along with a bunch of other ****** up scaling. I pray I don't need to explain why that's an issue.
 
Chariot190 said:
Reminder, Raiden's base durability scaling to his RM AP, would in turn circle around to his base AP scaling to his RM AP, along with a bunch of other ****** up scaling. I pray I don't need to explain why that's an issue.
Click to expand...
Minos_the_Judge said:
I know, but again, its durability physically could not change.
Click to expand...
Alright I'll add you both on disagree for Ripper Mode scaling, thoughts on other things Chariot?
 
Ultimate weapon is in reference to the fact it can freely fire off nukes whenever, explicitly, mind you, it doesn't mean enable things like scaling above PW or Shagohad, it's just saying Metal Gear, the weapon, a bipedal tank that can fire off nukes anywhere at any time, is the ultimate weapon.
It has no bearing on its durability, speed, or power (i mean that should be obvious, just compare the speed of it vs shagohad or pupa, it is literally over 10x less, or the fact PW has like a 7-C pod for durability which completely eclipses the thing, plus its nuke yield is below PW's too, its known official stats just don't add up against others, even if we didn't know what it meant). It would need a calc to scale off first, which shouldn't be hard to figure out, MG1 has some solid uncalced feats, and they do likely retroactively scale off Venom who has some insane shit too.
And i do mean that, we know some of its stats because we're told.

Gray Fox feat is good, but it needs a calc. Would not be shocked if it gets within tier 8, in fact, I guarantee it, fortunately, we have MGD's specs, including weight and components, this can be calced with only a bit of effort it was on the to do list actually, might be consistent with TMOF destroying a 22 ton armored vehicle too, which of course, scales to Mantis.

Exoskeleton not quite, you're conflating all exoskeletons with cyborg ones (the text even says replaces the body with, in regards to the exosuits in question that amps that much, it's talking about exoskeletons like Gray Fox or even MGS4 Raiden, where a large chunk of their body has been outfitted or replaced with cybernetics).
The skull suit's exoskeleton is like, an actual irl one, not the robot ass ones, it does increase strength, but only marginally due to helping with circulation and stuff.
Although, just because the Skull Suit doesn't have a 3x amp doesn't mean nothing in MGS2 does.
Solidus' exosuit DOES have a statement putting it above Gray Fox's suit, and Tengu's use the same type of suit as hisq, so Tengus and Solidus can get a 3x amp, but dudes like Raiden sure as hell don't via skull suit. Hell, given you have access to MGS4 database, they even say Solidus' suit is the cutting-edge exosuit model in that.

RM dont work like that, the actual gap for a one-shot can vary between verses, and even IRL, even a mere 2x gap irl can enable you to ******* kill a dude, and we're talking about a super cyborg with a quantum duraneg knife, putting any amount of extra force behind that thing can definitely lead to bisection without inherently needing to be a dozen times stronger.

Raiden is not comparable to Full Power Armstrong
Click to expand...
You're telling me brother, to this day still one of the most dog threads I've been a part of. FP Armstrong is way the **** beyond Raiden initially, like we have a whole ass meme displaying it. Raiden should have ******* Accelerated Development idgaf, bro went from doing literal chip damage and getting manhandled to making Armstrong reel and actively making note that Raiden's blows hurt now, in QTE's no less.

the other stuff idk, it dont matter enough to comment on atm, tldr, need calcs and while not raiden, solidus and tengus can get a 3x amp.
 
Chariot190 said:
Ultimate weapon is in reference to the fact it can freely fire off nukes whenever, explicitly, mind you, it doesn't mean enable things like scaling above PW or Shagohad, it's just saying Metal Gear, the weapon, a bipedal tank that can fire off nukes anywhere at any time, is the ultimate weapon.
It has no bearing on its durability, speed, or power (i mean that should be obvious, just compare the speed of it vs shagohad or pupa, it is literally over 10x less, or the fact PW has like a 7-C pod for durability which completely eclipses the thing, plus its nuke yield is below PW's too, its known official stats just don't add up against others, even if we didn't know what it meant). It would need a calc to scale off first, which shouldn't be hard to figure out, MG1 has some solid uncalced feats, and they do likely retroactively scale off Venom who has some insane shit too.
And i do mean that, we know some of its stats because we're told.

Gray Fox feat is good, but it needs a calc. Would not be shocked if it gets within tier 8, in fact, I guarantee it, fortunately, we have MGD's specs, including weight and components, this can be calced with only a bit of effort it was on the to do list actually, might be consistent with TMOF destroying a 22 ton armored vehicle too, which of course, scales to Mantis.

Exoskeleton not quite, you're conflating all exoskeletons with cyborg ones (the text even says replaces the body with, in regards to the exosuits in question that amps that much, it's talking about exoskeletons like Gray Fox or even MGS4 Raiden, where a large chunk of their body has been outfitted or replaced with cybernetics).
The skull suit's exoskeleton is like, an actual irl one, not the robot ass ones, it does increase strength, but only marginally due to helping with circulation and stuff.
Although, just because the Skull Suit doesn't have a 3x amp doesn't mean nothing in MGS2 does.
Solidus' exosuit DOES have a statement putting it above Gray Fox's suit, and Tengu's use the same type of suit as hisq, so Tengus and Solidus can get a 3x amp, but dudes like Raiden sure as hell don't via skull suit. Hell, given you have access to MGS4 database, they even say Solidus' suit is the cutting-edge exosuit model in that.

RM dont work like that, the actual gap for a one-shot can vary between verses, and even IRL, even a mere 2x gap irl can enable you to ******* kill a dude, and we're talking about a super cyborg with a quantum duraneg knife, putting any amount of extra force behind that thing can definitely lead to bisection without inherently needing to be a dozen times stronger.


You're telling me brother, to this day still one of the most dog threads I've been a part of. FP Armstrong is way the ** beyond Raiden initially, like we have a whole ass meme displaying it. Raiden should have ***** Accelerated Development idgaf, bro went from doing literal chip damage and getting manhandled to making Armstrong reel and actively making note that Raiden's blows hurt now, in QTE's no less.

the other stuff idk, it dont matter enough to comment on atm, tldr, need calcs and while not raiden, solidus and tengus can get a 3x amp.
Click to expand...
At least we still get the 3x rating. But would that require to be made in another thread to get it accepted, or can I just edit it into this one?

For calculating the Gray Fox's feat should we find the volume via the sizes stated here (I know it's not the best kind of source but I couldn't find anything else) and then multiply it by violent fragmentation?
 
Ednaxel2 said:
At least we still get the 3x rating. But would that require to be made in another thread to get it accepted, or can I just edit it into this one?

For calculating the Gray Fox's feat should we find the volume via the sizes stated here (I know it's not the best kind of source but I couldn't find anything else) and then multiply it by violent fragmentation?
Click to expand...
The fact we already have the weight means we can skip pixel scaling bullshit, we just need to figure out how much of those 61 tons is metal, plating, etc, honestly probably just use tank percentages and call it a day, from here, just multiply by the relevant values to get yield.

I'm not sure about v.frag, like it could be, but what reason in particular?

And those values from the game's intro, they're obviously fine to utilize actually i lied, theyre from the japanese manual
 
Chariot190 said:
The fact we already have the weight means we can skip pixel scaling bullshit, we just need to figure out how much of those 61 tons is metal, plating, etc, honestly probably just use tank percentages and call it a day, from here, just multiply by the relevant values to get yield.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how we would find the percentage per material, am I stupid?
Chariot190 said:
I'm not sure about v.frag, like it could be, but what reason in particular?
Click to expand...
The explosion shrapnel Metal Gear D, shrapnel meaning fragments (small parts)
Fragmentation: Applied when the matter that was destroyed was turned into fairly large and distinguishable pieces.

Violent Fragmentation: Applied when the matter that was destroyed was turned into small but still distinguishable pieces.
Click to expand...
Chariot190 said:
And those values from the game's intro, they're obviously fine to utilize actually i lied, theyre from the japanese manual
Click to expand...
Works either way if it came from the intro or Japanese material
 
Chariot190 said:
Ultimate weapon is in reference to the fact it can freely fire off nukes whenever, explicitly, mind you, it doesn't mean enable things like scaling above PW or Shagohad, it's just saying Metal Gear, the weapon, a bipedal tank that can fire off nukes anywhere at any time, is the ultimate weapon.
It has no bearing on its durability, speed, or power (i mean that should be obvious, just compare the speed of it vs shagohad or pupa, it is literally over 10x less, or the fact PW has like a 7-C pod for durability which completely eclipses the thing, plus its nuke yield is below PW's too, its known official stats just don't add up against others, even if we didn't know what it meant). It would need a calc to scale off first, which shouldn't be hard to figure out, MG1 has some solid uncalced feats, and they do likely retroactively scale off Venom who has some insane shit too.
And i do mean that, we know some of its stats because we're told.

Gray Fox feat is good, but it needs a calc. Would not be shocked if it gets within tier 8, in fact, I guarantee it, fortunately, we have MGD's specs, including weight and components, this can be calced with only a bit of effort it was on the to do list actually, might be consistent with TMOF destroying a 22 ton armored vehicle too, which of course, scales to Mantis.

Exoskeleton not quite, you're conflating all exoskeletons with cyborg ones (the text even says replaces the body with, in regards to the exosuits in question that amps that much, it's talking about exoskeletons like Gray Fox or even MGS4 Raiden, where a large chunk of their body has been outfitted or replaced with cybernetics).
The skull suit's exoskeleton is like, an actual irl one, not the robot ass ones, it does increase strength, but only marginally due to helping with circulation and stuff.
Although, just because the Skull Suit doesn't have a 3x amp doesn't mean nothing in MGS2 does.
Solidus' exosuit DOES have a statement putting it above Gray Fox's suit, and Tengu's use the same type of suit as hisq, so Tengus and Solidus can get a 3x amp, but dudes like Raiden sure as hell don't via skull suit. Hell, given you have access to MGS4 database, they even say Solidus' suit is the cutting-edge exosuit model in that.

RM dont work like that, the actual gap for a one-shot can vary between verses, and even IRL, even a mere 2x gap irl can enable you to ******* kill a dude, and we're talking about a super cyborg with a quantum duraneg knife, putting any amount of extra force behind that thing can definitely lead to bisection without inherently needing to be a dozen times stronger.


You're telling me brother, to this day still one of the most dog threads I've been a part of. FP Armstrong is way the ** beyond Raiden initially, like we have a whole ass meme displaying it. Raiden should have ***** Accelerated Development idgaf, bro went from doing literal chip damage and getting manhandled to making Armstrong reel and actively making note that Raiden's blows hurt now, in QTE's no less.

the other stuff idk, it dont matter enough to comment on atm, tldr, need calcs and while not raiden, solidus and tengus can get a 3x amp.
Click to expand...
I still think Raiden losing his AD was complete and total horseshit.
 
Bump
Chariot190 said:
Ultimate weapon is in reference to the fact it can freely fire off nukes whenever, explicitly, mind you, it doesn't mean enable things like scaling above PW or Shagohad, it's just saying Metal Gear, the weapon, a bipedal tank that can fire off nukes anywhere at any time, is the ultimate weapon.
It has no bearing on its durability, speed, or power (i mean that should be obvious, just compare the speed of it vs shagohad or pupa, it is literally over 10x less, or the fact PW has like a 7-C pod for durability which completely eclipses the thing, plus its nuke yield is below PW's too, its known official stats just don't add up against others, even if we didn't know what it meant). It would need a calc to scale off first, which shouldn't be hard to figure out, MG1 has some solid uncalced feats, and they do likely retroactively scale off Venom who has some insane shit too.
And i do mean that, we know some of its stats because we're told.
Click to expand...
This was never meant to upgrade D over Peace Walker or anything else, just TX-55 which is the prototype to Metal Gear D meaning D is just a better overall version of TX-55 with it also being many times superior (either physically or in terms of weaponry, take your pick)
 
D is better yeah, but "ultimate weapon" is about the fact it's a Metal Gear, and if you take the ultimate weapon line at face value, you'd have to retroactively include weapons that came chronologically before, which leads to huge contradictions. The statement it's a few times stronger is more explicit and better to be used.
 
Chariot190 said:
D is better yeah, but "ultimate weapon" is about the fact it's a Metal Gear, and if you take the ultimate weapon line at face value, you'd have to retroactively include weapons that came chronologically before, which leads to huge contradictions. The statement it's a few times stronger is more explicit and better to be used.
Click to expand...
Sorry for the confusion lol, but it should upgrade Snake and Fox since: TX-55 scales to MG1 Snake - Metal Gear D is 4x TX-55 - Gray Fox can casually survive an explosion that shreds up Metal Gear D into pieces while inside of it
 
MG1 Snake needs feats, off the top of my head, there's him smashing down a wall in 5 hits. But that's only a 9-A feat.

Not quite, yeah he can survive it, but power=/=durability given it attacks primarily with weapons, and the MGD was already bombed to shit (remember, it says remnants), which is why it exploded. It's a good feat, but I doubt it'd be 8-B. It just needs to be calced
Btw
en.wikipedia.org

Vehicle armour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
10% ceramics and 90% steel for percentages. For the ceramics assume Alumina.
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I see, didn't you make a calc for that before?
Click to expand...
Yeah but it is a tad old, I'm sitting on a pile of random ass calcs or scans to make said calcs, was waiting for a CGM tread to finish involving steel displacement to resume since a few calcs involve dudes caving steel in.

Idk if we wanna redo it or not.
 
Can this be added to the calc list already since this changes nothing power scaling wise?
 
It getting 8-C changes everything.
The 8-B Volgin feat, while legit, doesn't actually scale to anyone's AP but his own. Fire, ice, and electrical attacks are indeed AP, but are absolute dogshit to scale. Big Boss does tank it but it's treated as "elecricity resistance", and doesn't inherently mean he can tank a punch with that same level of energy.

Of course this isn't always the case, if your verse has a UES, wacky attacks can scale to physicals, but Volgin ain't that. which is to say yeah, MGS' 8-B feat has been like universally agreed to be bunk for over 2 years now due to wiki standards, Volgin obviously keeps the AP but scaling it goes against wiki policy, shit just hasnt been updated.
So Fox having nn 8-C dura feat, who then goes onto fist fight Snake to death, is kind of good.

Though, Psycho Mantis, TMOF obliterating a 22 ton tank in a cutscene (like, zero debris left over, so way beyond frag), would in turn scale to Mantis' psychic attacks and then to MGS1 Snake as Mantis can throw psycho kinetic shadow balls. Pretty sure sending a ******* tank to the shadow realm is higher than just basic frag.
 
Chariot190 said:
It getting 8-C changes everything.
The 8-B Volgin feat, while legit, doesn't actually scale to anyone's AP but his own. Fire, ice, and electrical attacks are indeed AP, but are absolute dogshit to scale. Big Boss does tank it but it's treated as "elecricity resistance", and doesn't inherently mean he can tank a punch with that same level of energy.

Of course this isn't always the case, if your verse has a UES, wacky attacks can scale to physicals, but Volgin ain't that. which is to say yeah, MGS' 8-B feat has been like universally agreed to be bunk for over 2 years now due to wiki standards, Volgin obviously keeps the AP but scaling it goes against wiki policy, shit just hasnt been updated.
So Fox having nn 8-C dura feat, who then goes onto fist fight Snake to death, is kind of good.

Though, Psycho Mantis, TMOF obliterating a 22 ton tank in a cutscene (like, zero debris left over, so way beyond frag), would in turn scale to Mantis' psychic attacks and then to MGS1 Snake as Mantis can throw psycho kinetic shadow balls. Pretty sure sending a ******* tank to the shadow realm is higher than just basic frag.
Click to expand...
The Psycho Mantis stuff and having Volgin's feat only scale to himself I think should be their own CRTs, lets just get this one quickly evaluated first
 
Chariot190 said:
It getting 8-C changes everything.
The 8-B Volgin feat, while legit, doesn't actually scale to anyone's AP but his own. Fire, ice, and electrical attacks are indeed AP, but are absolute dogshit to scale. Big Boss does tank it but it's treated as "elecricity resistance", and doesn't inherently mean he can tank a punch with that same level of energy.

Of course this isn't always the case, if your verse has a UES, wacky attacks can scale to physicals, but Volgin ain't that. which is to say yeah, MGS' 8-B feat has been like universally agreed to be bunk for over 2 years now due to wiki standards, Volgin obviously keeps the AP but scaling it goes against wiki policy, shit just hasnt been updated.
So Fox having nn 8-C dura feat, who then goes onto fist fight Snake to death, is kind of good.

Though, Psycho Mantis, TMOF obliterating a 22 ton tank in a cutscene (like, zero debris left over, so way beyond frag), would in turn scale to Mantis' psychic attacks and then to MGS1 Snake as Mantis can throw psycho kinetic shadow balls. Pretty sure sending a ******* tank to the shadow realm is higher than just basic frag.
Click to expand...
Don't forget Venom Snake practically no-selling being inside of a tank as it gets totally obliterated by some random assholes rolling up along the road.
 
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