Megami Tensei 1-A re-evaluation

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

On this wiki, Megami Tensei is rated as 1-A for its strongest characters despite not having a hierarchy of infinite dimensions to transcend due to fulfilling an exception to the general rules, a rating they gained in https://vsbattles.com/threads/megami-tensei-the-collective-expansive-crt.124544/. The justification used for this massive tier jump was the following:

Spoiler: JUSTIFICATION

"You know that it is a nano-sized semi-organic quantum computer assembly, but ⟨Ardha's⟩ ability is to break the power that makes the computers assemble with each other. It has the ability to break down the essentially indestructible body of an ⟨ASURA⟩ into its smallest fragments, sub-molecular sized particles, and cause it to cease to exist."

"I don't understand", Cielo stirred restlessly, sitting next to Serph. "Are you saying that his body disappearing like a mist is what we saw? So, is that what happened to you, big brother? Or rather your consciousness, at that time? Was it decomposed or something?"

"The ⟨ASURA⟩ body defines its existence by the self-awareness of the installed AI", Serph replied. "Ardha's ability to disassemble the body also included the ability to disassemble the ⟨ASURA-AI⟩, the subjective consciousness that controls the body's variability, self-repair, and form. Rather than decomposition, I should say it was dispersed. The human consciousness cannot recognize a body that has been broken down to the size of a particle as 'self'. On the contrary, the components of an ⟨ASURA⟩ body that has been broken down to the size of particles regain their original quantum nature and diffuse everywhere, in all dimensions, and across all possibilities. As a result, the self-consciousness also diffuses, and the unity of personality cannot be maintained. In very simple terms, the personality and the body will disappear, at least from this material world."

"After I disappeared, I could see everything that everyone was doing", Serph continued. In Sera’s case, she was blocked by the shell, and the blast was contained within the EGG. But as for me, I continued to expand further and farther than her, expanding beyond the boundaries of this dimension. For a quantum-based being, just the normal 3 dimensions were far too small, and nothing more than the lowest, most basic tier dimensions. Or possibly, what I had done was expand beyond even the concept of “dimension” and into an unknown space. I didn’t fully understand it myself—or rather, it’s just that I lacked the words to explain it.

It was just like how Sera could only describe her communication with god using rough, imprecise language. I, having had existence itself converge within my three dimensional, physical body, could only use words and concepts from the 3-dimensional world. Anymore than that would be go beyond the abilities of my hardware—this physical world, bound by the laws of physics.

[...]

Yeah, so, as we can gather, this realm, being the world of the unconscious where individuals who attained Nirvana and escaped the cycle of reincarnation reside in a state of no-ego, is very obviously just the Atziluth / Kadath. And the first statement above is very clear-cut 1-A. The fact that it specifically refers to superiority over the concept of dimensions & refers to such a state as fundamentally above simply being a higher-dimensional entity beyond the boundaries of the 3-D world also means that it bypasses this clause of the Tiering System FAQ, which only accounts for cases where it is unclear if the superiority in question is over "dimensions" as a whole or merely the dimensional structures physically present in the verse, and so it certainly fulfills the "All possible extensions" criterion.

Since this thread was accepted, two Staff Discussion threads have significantly tightened the requirements for a 1-A rating.

1. https://vsbattles.com/threads/amending-the-1-a-without-infinite-hierarchy-guideline.151981/ tightened the rules for a clause of the Tiering System FAQ that allowed a character to jump to 1-A without an infinite hierarchy if they existed independently of the number of dimensional layers present within the setting by requiring any such character to have an explicit statement that the addition or removal of an infinite number of dimensions would make no difference to them, meaning being independent of any finite number of dimensions no longer qualifies you for this exception.
2. https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-1-a-wiki-wide-tiering-revision-beyond-dimensions.151894/ added four new entries to the Tiering System FAQ, one of which clarified that transcending the "dimensionality" of a verse strictly only qualifies you for being rated as one dimension above the verse's known number of dimensions with no further context. Though the text of the rule applied to the FAQ doesn't explicitly use this wording, it was agreed upon that this restriction would also apply to transcending the concept of dimensions, which would be restricted to the number of dimensions the verse is known to have, plus one, as "concept of dimensions" can't be assumed to apply to more dimensions than the verse talks about.

Re-evaluating the Evidence for 1-A
As we can see, the statement used to prove Megami Tensei's 1-A rating no longer qualifies for 1-A under the new site standards. Stating that one transcends the concept of dimensions would require an explicit supporting statement that infinite dimensions are included in this concept for a character to jump to 1-A without an infinite hierarchy, without which such a statement would only allow the character to have a rating of one more dimension than the verse in question is known to have.
Proposal
As the statement used to prove 1-A lacks the context to support such a rating, it will instead be used to scale the characters it affects to one more dimension than the verse has otherwise demonstrated, and the characters with additional transcendent layers above baseline 1-A will have the corresponding number of dimensions added to their tier. I'm not knowledgeable regarding this verse at all and am just doing my duty as a staff member to implement the ripple effects of policy changes, so the specifics will be left for others to work out.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @Elizhaa @Ultima_Reality @CrimsonStarFallen @DarkDragonMedeus @Deagonx
Your help here would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Late here and not particularly in the state of mind to debate things at length, so, I'll only respond to this later tomorrow. You all better not start bickering (i.e Initating discussion) while I'm gone.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ah, finally, been waiting to show the new (sorta) justifications. We move with Ultima, so response will come with him.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

By the by, since this is a high-tier thread, I took the liberty to move it to Staff Discussion. The regular users who may wish to add their two cents may ask for permission to post (And I extend that to the verse's own supporters, obviously), but I don't want to see 50 posts of "This should be interesting" when I come back to this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am more so going to watch thread to see more arguments given 1-A stuff is over my head. But I actually do recall hearing some "Infinite dimensional statements." I also have heard of some other back up tier proposals even if 1-A stuff doesn't hold up, but wasn't sure about full details.

But yes, I will wait and no regular users cluttering thread without permission.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Alrighty, then.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/low-1-a-wiki-wide-tiering-revision-beyond-dimensions.151894/ added four new entries to the Tiering System FAQ, one of which clarified that transcending the "dimensionality" of a verse strictly only qualifies you for being rated as one dimension above the verse's known number of dimensions with no further context. Though the text of the rule applied to the FAQ doesn't explicitly use this wording, it was agreed upon that this restriction would also apply to transcending the concept of dimensions, which would be restricted to the number of dimensions the verse is known to have, plus one, as "concept of dimensions" can't be assumed to apply to more dimensions than the verse talks about.

This particular bit is actually something I've inquired a fair few times while that thread was open and going. And frankly it ties into subjects that were left only half-finished during discussion there, as I see it, so, yeah. To clarify, let me quote the clause(s) added to the FAQ:

Q: What tier does a character being beyond dimensions equate to?

A: This would need to be evaluated similar to statements about transcending space and time. If the character is beyond dimensions in the sense of being qualitatively superior to them then they should be only one level of qualitative superiority above however many dimensions the verse is known to have. This is because such a statement would usually refer to the dimensions that the verse has, and not include theoretical dimensions.

Q: What tier does a character being qualitatively superior to all planes of existence, no matter how high they are, equate to?

Such a character would be assume to be one level of qualitative superiority higher than the tier that destroying all planes of existence would receive. It would usually not be considered to cover planes of existence that are not known to exist, as we do not know the practical limits of how many there could be and the statement itself is not clear whether 'all planes' includes realms beyond those that exist. If it is clarified that theoretical dimensions are included then it comes down to how many are known to be considered in the theoretical framework.

So: Why is "beyond dimensions" not automatically 1-A? Because, without further context, we assume this only refers to the dimensions that physically exist in the verse. So, for example, if such a statement popped up in a verse with 7 spatial dimensions, we'd interpret it as (At best) quaitative superiority over those 7 dimensions, and nothing more. This means a mathematician in-verse could model spaces with more than 7 dimensions, and we'd consider those to be descriptions of things equivalent or superior to the character doing the transcending.

By using that reasoning, we also implicitly state that, if the character's transcendence includes dimensions that don't exist physically (Mathematically modelling n-dimensional spaces is very easy), then the statement can be considered higher than a single level of infinity above the physical cosmology.

So: Why is "beyond the concept of dimensions" not automatically 1-A? Same logic as above. We generally interpret "concept" as meaning "abstract force that shapes reality," and which also exists at least partially independently of the mind, which is to say that concepts in this view can be bound to what actually exists and not include things we simply entertain intellectually. So, for example, the "concept of space" in a verse with 7 spatial dimensions can encompass only those dimensions, and not the 8161-dimensional space that some mathematician modeled in his spare time.

The same logic doesn't really apply if the thing being transcended is the general conceptualization/definition of "dimensions" as a whole, since by definition, this would not be bound to the dimensions that physically exist. We are not at all bound to defining or modelling only what physically exists, after all. That's an absurdity.

Why am I mentioning this? Because, in MegaTen, mental concepts and existential concepts are the same thing. There is (without exaggeration) a mountain of evidence for that which I'm happy to share as the discussion progresses, but one particular piece to show from the get-go this, which explicitly describes human thoughts and the information defining reality as being synonymous (Said information being what concepts are). Overall, the crux of the cosmology is that the physical derives from the mental and is totally subordinate to it, so much so that humanity's collective unconsciousness and its archetypes are what reality as a whole emanates from. So when they say "concept of dimension," they're not really talking about something bound to the physical, but to "dimension" as a generalized conception or idea.

In fact, the second scan shown up there gives us an actual explanation for what a "concept" is in Megami Tensei. The translation renders it as "Concepts are general summations of meaning," while the original JP words it as 概念ってのは、 物事の総括的、概括的な意味を指すんだな, which, in English, is saying a concept is "the all-inclusive (総括的), general (概括的) meaning of a thing." Special note going to the term "総括的," which translates to "all-inclusive, all-encompassing, general, overall" and things with the same meaning. It then follows up with "1つの物事の概要を、抽象化、普遍化して捉えた場合の意味内容を指す", which is "The term refers to the universalized (抽象化, lit. To generalize/make universal) abstract outline of a single thing."

So, not only are concepts in MegaTen specifically mental ones (Thus, what they encompass is not glued to what physically exists), but they're also explicitly the very definition of a thing's existence, in the broadest and most all-inclusive generalization possible. So, given these two factors, the reasons for why "Beyond dimensions" is not considered automatically 1-A don't really apply to the statement that gives MT that tier to begin with, just by virtue of how its cosmology works. So on that principle alone I would consider this downgrade invalid, but I'll carry on a little, as there's things I want to make clear first.

Anyway: A piece of supporting evidence that, in my view, harms the notion that the statement given is only equivalent to a single dimensional jump, is this one. To give some framing context to it, I'll give a brief overview of MT's cosmology.

Basically, existence passes through four stages in order to be actualized. These four stages are also four worlds, four planes of existence: Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah and Assiah. In this hierarchy, each higher plane transcends a lower one and acts as the basis and emanator of its whole existence. For instance, Assiah is the material world, and it is then followed by Yetzirah, the higher-dimensional realm that acts as the foundation for it and the "pre-existent matter" from which it emerges. Likewise, as Yetzirah is to Assiah, Briah is to Yetzirah.

However, Atziluth, the highest plane and the one to which the "beyond dimensions" statement refer to, is different. As the scan above says, the four worlds seem to be connected, but in truth Atziluth exists in "absolute separation" (Apparently, an alternate translation of the term used, 隔絶, is "inaccessibility" as well, so, that's interesting) from the layers below it. This is a trait that the text attributes to it alone, so this "separation" doesn't really refer to it simply being outside of the lower three worlds (Because each higher world is outside the lower one already), and since the realm is non-spatial in nature, it obviously doesn't refer to a kind of physical distance between the layers, either.

So, in conjunction with the above stuff, I think it's fairly clear evidence that Atziluth does transcend the layers beneath it by more than a single infinity. They have their own relationships of transcendence among them, but Atziluth is something fundamentally apart from all that. It's absolutely isolated, inaccessible, not really dwarfing them in the same way they dwarf each other. And the scan which this discussion revolves around supporting this, too. To quote it:

In Sera’s case, she was blocked by the shell, and the blast was contained within the EGG. But as for me, I continued to expand further and farther than her, expanding beyond the boundaries of this dimension. For a quantum-based being, just the normal 3 dimensions were far too small, and nothing more than the lowest, most basic tier dimensions. Or possibly, what I had done was expand beyond even the concept of “dimension” and into an unknown space.

First, Serph explains that, in reaching the realm, he expanded beyond the boundaries of 3-dimensional space and become an entity to which 3 dimensions were small and limited. However, immediately after he muses that perhaps what he had done, instead, was "expand beyond even the concept of dimension." The text certainly reads as if he is presenting one description for the nature of his ascension, and then another, which surpasses that prospect entirely. Personally I think it would be incredibly silly to look at this and unironically say "I see, so his transcendence was equivalent to two dimensions, then!" But my in-depth case for that is already laid out above.

---

Now, after all this, I should for clarity's sake explain a bit of how the thread linked in the OP went, since it's long as hell and most people probably didn't read it. Basically, the bulk of discussion there started with me proposing that existing beyond "dimensions" as a general quality or characteristic should be High 1-A. DontTalk disagreed, and a debate rolled out for a few pages. Eventually the debate itself was interrupted and deemed to be a derailing of the thread's original purpose, and so it was postponed for later.

That said, halfway through the discussion, we were coming to a compromise of sorts. More specifically, the agreement was basically that, if it's made clear that a character transcends all dimensions existing abstractly, and not just all dimensions existing physically, we would be willing to extrapolate that to Low 1-A or 1-A (DontTalk was undecided on which it should be and said he preferred to postpone that as well). As seen here:

My approach on the other hand is more conservative. I generally don't think such statements should be used to scale the verse more than 1 level of infinity higher than the largest structure mentioned in the verse (either mentioned to exist or mentioned to at least be possible to exist, depending on which statement is made). There are two exceptions to that.
The first exception is very niche statements that clearly explain some inference rule. E.g. if a verse states "we can at any point add one more dimensions" then probably any finite amount are possible and hence we can rank a character transcending all of them as Low 1-A.
The second is that if the statement is something like "above all dimensions in mathematics" and the fiction mentioned mathematical higher dimensions, then I am willing to extrapolate higher, but just up to Low 1-A (i.e. baseline above any number of finite dimensions) unless infinite dimensions are explicitly mentioned.

And starting here to here. From there and afterwards, the disagreement was about whether or not that should be High 1-A, but, otherwise, we pretty much came to an agreement that certain cases could be extrapolated to the 1-A range without mention of infinite dimensions.

Regardless, though, it's not entirely clear to me what, in practice, was the final conclusion regarding that. The only example DontTalk gave for an hypothetical statement that'd fulfill the above criteron, during our talk, was "above all dimensions in mathematics" and the fiction mentioned mathematical higher dimension." I asked about some cases I believed would be relevant here, but he stayed on the fence regarding the second case and didn't really address the core of the first question.

And, perhaps more pressingly, it seems like the additions to the FAQ were applied a bit weirdly, looking back? As I've shown, there is talk there of the idea of transcending theoretical/abstract dimensions, even though the exact tier you'd get for transcending them all (Whether Low 1-A or 1-A or whatever) was left undecided and postponed for a future thread, and he likewise refrained from giving clarification on some of my questions about the subject due to that postponing too. So, all of this is a bit of a point of confusion to me, at the moment. Feels like the dust from that thread hasn't really properly settled at all.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

As I said, I’m not knowledgeable about this verse at all, so my comprehension of the subject matter here will necessarily be limited; I merely wanted to spark some discussion. I'm going to wait for some more staff opinions on that before I respond again.

 

[The_Smashor]

Even if 1-A does stay, it should probably be downgraded to a mere "Possibly", given the statement supporting it specifically only notes it as a possibility.

"Or perhaps it was a completely unknown space, beyond even the concept of dimensions."

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Even if 1-A does stay, it should probably be downgraded to a mere "Possibly", given the statement supporting it specifically only notes it as a possibility.

"Or perhaps it was a completely unknown space, beyond even the concept of dimensions."

That's better discussed after the validity of the statement's 1-A rating is settled. Vastly better if we do this step-by-step instead of tackling a bunch of different shit at once.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am in the boat to keep 1-A stats as per Ultima's reasons.

 

[The_Smashor]

That's better discussed after the validity of the statement's 1-A rating is settled. Vastly better if we do this step-by-step instead of tackling a bunch of different shit at once.

Just thought it was worth bringing up, it's been nagging at me for a while now but I also don't know enough about this series to make a CRT on the topic.

 

[Lonkitt]

I’m in favour of keeping 1-A because of Ultimate’s reasons above

 

[Elizhaa]

Keeping 1-A from Ultima’s reasons seem fine.

 

[DarkGrath]

I've been asked to provide input here.

I'm firmly leaning towards agreeing with the validity of the 1-A sources, but there is something I would like clarification on.

Because, in MegaTen, mental concepts and existential concepts are the same thing. There is (without exaggeration) a mountain of evidence for that which I'm happy to share as the discussion progresses, but one particular piece to show from the get-go this, which explicitly describes human thoughts and the information defining reality as being synonymous (Said information being what concepts are).

Could you elaborate further on this evidence? I don't doubt further evidence exists, but there is room for questioning in the evidence you've provided. Most notably, you say that the latter scan tells us that "[this information is] what concepts are", but what the scan says verbatim is "The information and matter you were talking about is more or less related to that".

I found this to be odd phrasing. Being "related" inherently implies not being the exact same thing, as to say things are "related" to one another means that they are two separate things to begin with, and can therefore be compared on related characteristics. Furthermore, it's oddly evasive to say "more or less related" if the intention is to say "they are the same thing" - if the intention was to say that this information/matter is effectively the same thing, why wouldn't they just say the latter, or some variation of it? The less clear-cut phrasing suggests that there is some delineation between the two.

If this is the case, this scan would imply that concepts are more than just the building blocks of reality, and consequentially, they could be more than just the product of human thoughts. As a result, there is still a small gap in the logic between the cutscene showing that human thoughts are the building blocks of reality and the scan explaining the nature of concepts in the verse. If there is indeed more evidence for this point, I imagine it'd be enough to clear up any doubts, and hopefully to explain the tenuous phrasing mentioned above.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Hello. Tagging in for Ultima as he sleeps, and I trust that he trusts that I can handle other portions of this thread adequately enough. With that said:

Could you elaborate further on this evidence? I don't doubt further evidence exists, but there is room for questioning in the evidence you've provided. Most notably, you say that the latter scan tells us that "[this information is] what concepts are", but what the scan says verbatim is "The information and matter you were talking about is more or less related to that".

I found this to be odd phrasing. Being "related" inherently implies not being the exact same thing, as to say things are "related" to one another means that they are two separate things to begin with, and can therefore be compared on related characteristics. Furthermore, it's oddly evasive to say "more or less related" if the intention is to say "they are the same thing" - if the intention was to say that this information/matter is effectively the same thing, why wouldn't they just say the latter, or some variation of it? The less clear-cut phrasing suggests that there is some delineation between the two.

If this is the case, this scan would imply that concepts are more than just the building blocks of reality, and consequentially, they could be more than just the product of human thoughts. As a result, there is still a small gap in the logic between the cutscene showing that human thoughts are the building blocks of reality and the scan explaining the nature of concepts in the verse. If there is indeed more evidence for this point, I imagine it'd be enough to clear up any doubts, and hopefully to explain the tenuous phrasing mentioned above.

Your issue of her wording is exactly that, just wording. In the Japanese iteration of the scene, her sentence is delivered in a lot more bluntly, without room for misinterpretation.

The 'information' and 'substance' that you all mentioned are included, roughly speaking.

This is further extrapolated on in the latter end of her conversation, where she describes the totality of the world, and the very concepts that make up the foundation of its existence, are merely data within the Akashic Record. This is pretty much 1:1, in both the English and Japanese renditions of the scene. That should suffice the point, but even more directly is the Collective Unconscious being itself described as a conceptual realm, and as Ultima earlier mentioned, there is a mountain of evidence to assert the mind and information are synonymous. There is more, by the way (he was actually hyper literal).

 

[DarkGrath]

This is further extrapolated on in the latter end of her conversation, where she describes the totality of the world, and the very concepts that make up the foundation of its existence, are merely data within the Akashic Record. This is pretty much 1:1, in both the English and Japanese renditions of the scene. That should suffice the point, but even more directly is the Collective Unconscious being itself described as a conceptual realm, and as Ultima earlier mentioned, there is a mountain of evidence to assert the mind and information are synonymous. There is more, by the way (he was actually hyper literal).

Thank you for the clarification. To reiterate the ideas being expressed here for clarity:

Information in MegaTen is also referred to as "data". Data is the most fundamental, irreducible building block of reality, and its existence is based on the continued perception of it by sentient life. Fumi explains that concepts are made up of this information, and that these concepts make up everything in existence, stored in the Akashic Record. Therefore, the continued existence of concepts is based on the mind of the sentient beings that perceive them, meaning concepts in MegaTen are mental by nature, and reality conforms to these mental constructs. As such, statements regarding the "concept of dimensions" should be taken to refer to the mental construct of dimensions, which would include all possible dimensional scales. Therefore, statements regarding transcending the "concept of dimensions" would include all possible dimensional scales, scaling the verse to 1-A.

If this is correct, then I have no qualms with it. It's a large inference to make without an explicit statement of infinite dimensions, but I don't see any reason why it'd be inappropriate here.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm not the best person to evaluate the validity of this inference.
@DontTalkDT Is the above logic acceptable as a path to 1-A?

 

[Deagonx]

concepts in MegaTen are mental by nature, and reality conforms to these mental constructs. As such, statements regarding the "concept of dimensions" should be taken to refer to the mental construct of dimensions, which would include all possible dimensional scales. Therefore, statements regarding transcending the "concept of dimensions" would include all possible dimensional scales, scaling the verse to 1-A.

If this is correct, then I have no qualms with it. It's a large inference to make without an explicit statement of infinite dimensions, but I don't see any reason why it'd be inappropriate here.

This is essentially my same assessment.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Information in MegaTen is also referred to as "data". Data is the most fundamental, irreducible building block of reality, and its existence is based on the continued perception of it by sentient life. Fumi explains that concepts are made up of this information, and that these concepts make up everything in existence, stored in the Akashic Record. Therefore, the continued existence of concepts is based on the mind of the sentient beings that perceive them, meaning concepts in MegaTen are mental by nature, and reality conforms to these mental constructs. As such, statements regarding the "concept of dimensions" should be taken to refer to the mental construct of dimensions, which would include all possible dimensional scales. Therefore, statements regarding transcending the "concept of dimensions" would include all possible dimensional scales, scaling the verse to 1-A.

That's pretty much it, yes. Another, perhaps more succinct way to put it would be: As Fumi directly states, a "concept" is the general (All-inclusive) definition of a thing's existence. As such, what's being transcended here isn't really the dimensions physically existent in the cosmology but just the generalized conception of a plurality of axes, and so obviously the limitations of physics and whatnot really play no role here.

In fact, another concept that the game mentions is the concept of coordinates, and since this is the same game that gives a very specific explanation of what a "concept" is, it would fall under the above too. That is to say, "Concept of Coordinates" = The very definition of what "coodinates" are = The generalized conception of "Numbers used to indicate a point in space."

And, just in case: Yeah, the verse does indeed make the connection between coordinates and dimensions (Including higher dimensions).

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Just noting the current tally.

Agreements:

Neutral:

Disagreements: @Ultima_Reality, @DarkGrath, @Lonkitt, @Elizhaa, @Deagonx, @DarkDragonMedeus.

I totally didn’t forget this was a downgrade thread.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Remember, DT still needs to evaluate this.

 

[Jasonsith]

Since now we have concrete proof that SMT transcends coordinates (where infinite coordinate means infinite dimension), I believe the 1-A can stay.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Since now we have concrete proof that SMT transcends coordinates (where infinite coordinate means infinite dimension), I believe the 1-A can stay.

@DontTalkDT You should evaluate this. If you deem this an acceptable line of reasoning for 1-A, we'll need to explain it far better on the profiles.

 

[Jasonsith]

@DontTalkDT You should evaluate this. If you deem this an acceptable line of reasoning for 1-A, we'll need to explain it far better on the profiles.

Alrighty, then.


This particular bit is actually something I've inquired a fair few times while that thread was open and going. And frankly it ties into subjects that were left only half-finished during discussion there, as I see it, so, yeah. To clarify, let me quote the clause(s) added to the FAQ:





So: Why is "beyond dimensions" not automatically 1-A? Because, without further context, we assume this only refers to the dimensions that physically exist in the verse. So, for example, if such a statement popped up in a verse with 7 spatial dimensions, we'd interpret it as (At best) quaitative superiority over those 7 dimensions, and nothing more. This means a mathematician in-verse could model spaces with more than 7 dimensions, and we'd consider those to be descriptions of things equivalent or superior to the character doing the transcending.

By using that reasoning, we also implicitly state that, if the character's transcendence includes dimensions that don't exist physically (Mathematically modelling n-dimensional spaces is very easy), then the statement can be considered higher than a single level of infinity above the physical cosmology.

So: Why is "beyond the concept of dimensions" not automatically 1-A? Same logic as above. We generally interpret "concept" as meaning "abstract force that shapes reality," and which also exists at least partially independently of the mind, which is to say that concepts in this view can be bound to what actually exists and not include things we simply entertain intellectually. So, for example, the "concept of space" in a verse with 7 spatial dimensions can encompass only those dimensions, and not the 8161-dimensional space that some mathematician modeled in his spare time.

The same logic doesn't really apply if the thing being transcended is the general conceptualization/definition of "dimensions" as a whole, since by definition, this would not be bound to the dimensions that physically exist. We are not at all bound to defining or modelling only what physically exists, after all. That's an absurdity.

Why am I mentioning this? Because, in MegaTen, mental concepts and existential concepts are the same thing. There is (without exaggeration) a mountain of evidence for that which I'm happy to share as the discussion progresses, but one particular piece to show from the get-go this, which explicitly describes human thoughts and the information defining reality as being synonymous (Said information being what concepts are). Overall, the crux of the cosmology is that the physical derives from the mental and is totally subordinate to it, so much so that humanity's collective unconsciousness and its archetypes are what reality as a whole emanates from. So when they say "concept of dimension," they're not really talking about something bound to the physical, but to "dimension" as a generalized conception or idea.

In fact, the second scan shown up there gives us an actual explanation for what a "concept" is in Megami Tensei. The translation renders it as "Concepts are general summations of meaning," while the original JP words it as 概念ってのは、 物事の総括的、概括的な意味を指すんだな, which, in English, is saying a concept is "the all-inclusive (総括的), general (概括的) meaning of a thing." Special note going to the term "総括的," which translates to "all-inclusive, all-encompassing, general, overall" and things with the same meaning. It then follows up with "1つの物事の概要を、抽象化、普遍化して捉えた場合の意味内容を指す", which is "The term refers to the universalized (抽象化, lit. To generalize/make universal) abstract outline of a single thing."

So, not only are concepts in MegaTen specifically mental ones (Thus, what they encompass is not glued to what physically exists), but they're also explicitly the very definition of a thing's existence, in the broadest and most all-inclusive generalization possible. So, given these two factors, the reasons for why "Beyond dimensions" is not considered automatically 1-A don't really apply to the statement that gives MT that tier to begin with, just by virtue of how its cosmology works. So on that principle alone I would consider this downgrade invalid, but I'll carry on a little, as there's things I want to make clear first.

Anyway: A piece of supporting evidence that, in my view, harms the notion that the statement given is only equivalent to a single dimensional jump, is this one. To give some framing context to it, I'll give a brief overview of MT's cosmology.

Basically, existence passes through four stages in order to be actualized. These four stages are also four worlds, four planes of existence: Atziluth, Briah, Yetzirah and Assiah. In this hierarchy, each higher plane transcends a lower one and acts as the basis and emanator of its whole existence. For instance, Assiah is the material world, and it is then followed by Yetzirah, the higher-dimensional realm that acts as the foundation for it and the "pre-existent matter" from which it emerges. Likewise, as Yetzirah is to Assiah, Briah is to Yetzirah.

However, Atziluth, the highest plane and the one to which the "beyond dimensions" statement refer to, is different. As the scan above says, the four worlds seem to be connected, but in truth Atziluth exists in "absolute separation" (Apparently, an alternate translation of the term used, 隔絶, is "inaccessibility" as well, so, that's interesting) from the layers below it. This is a trait that the text attributes to it alone, so this "separation" doesn't really refer to it simply being outside of the lower three worlds (Because each higher world is outside the lower one already), and since the realm is non-spatial in nature, it obviously doesn't refer to a kind of physical distance between the layers, either.

So, in conjunction with the above stuff, I think it's fairly clear evidence that Atziluth does transcend the layers beneath it by more than a single infinity. They have their own relationships of transcendence among them, but Atziluth is something fundamentally apart from all that. It's absolutely isolated, inaccessible, not really dwarfing them in the same way they dwarf each other. And the scan which this discussion revolves around supporting this, too. To quote it:





First, Serph explains that, in reaching the realm, he expanded beyond the boundaries of 3-dimensional space and become an entity to which 3 dimensions were small and limited. However, immediately after he muses that perhaps what he had done, instead, was "expand beyond even the concept of dimension." The text certainly reads as if he is presenting one description for the nature of his ascension, and then another, which surpasses that prospect entirely. Personally I think it would be incredibly silly to look at this and unironically say "I see, so his transcendence was equivalent to two dimensions, then!" But my in-depth case for that is already laid out above.

---

Now, after all this, I should for clarity's sake explain a bit of how the thread linked in the OP went, since it's long as hell and most people probably didn't read it. Basically, the bulk of discussion there started with me proposing that existing beyond "dimensions" as a general quality or characteristic should be High 1-A. DontTalk disagreed, and a debate rolled out for a few pages. Eventually the debate itself was interrupted and deemed to be a derailing of the thread's original purpose, and so it was postponed for later.

That said, halfway through the discussion, we were coming to a compromise of sorts. More specifically, the agreement was basically that, if it's made clear that a character transcends all dimensions existing abstractly, and not just all dimensions existing physically, we would be willing to extrapolate that to Low 1-A or 1-A (DontTalk was undecided on which it should be and said he preferred to postpone that as well). As seen here:



And starting here to here. From there and afterwards, the disagreement was about whether or not that should be High 1-A, but, otherwise, we pretty much came to an agreement that certain cases could be extrapolated to the 1-A range without mention of infinite dimensions.

Regardless, though, it's not entirely clear to me what, in practice, was the final conclusion regarding that. The only example DontTalk gave for an hypothetical statement that'd fulfill the above criteron, during our talk, was "above all dimensions in mathematics" and the fiction mentioned mathematical higher dimension." I asked about some cases I believed would be relevant here, but he stayed on the fence regarding the second case and didn't really address the core of the first question.

And, perhaps more pressingly, it seems like the additions to the FAQ were applied a bit weirdly, looking back? As I've shown, there is talk there of the idea of transcending theoretical/abstract dimensions, even though the exact tier you'd get for transcending them all (Whether Low 1-A or 1-A or whatever) was left undecided and postponed for a future thread, and he likewise refrained from giving clarification on some of my questions about the subject due to that postponing too. So, all of this is a bit of a point of confusion to me, at the moment. Feels like the dust from that thread hasn't really properly settled at all.

This may actually need to be added to the cosmology explanation page.
@DontTalkDT should really evaluate this. If this is deemed an acceptable line of reasoning for 1-A, we'll need to explain it far better on the profiles.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Bump

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@DontTalkDT

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, it has been exactly two months and two days since this thread was made, which is, of course, more than enough time for DontTalk to have posted here. Seeing as he has been seen active in other threads despite the multiple pings he's received here, it would appear he lacks either the time or the interest to respond to this one at the moment.

Given that and the fact the balance largely leans towards disagreement with this downgrade, I say we close this. If he has any objections, he can make another thread. I personally would not be opposed to waiting further, but I recognize that, objectively speaking, two months is pushing it.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

So, it has been a wait of exactly two months and three days, which is, of course, more than enough time for DontTalk to have posted here. Seeing as he has been seen active in other threads despite the multiple pings he's received here, it would appear he lacks either the time or the interest to respond to this one at the moment.

Given that and the fact the balance largely leans towards disagreement with this downgrade, I say we close this. If he has any objections, he can make another thread. I personally would not be opposed to waiting further, but I recognize that, objectively speaking, two months is pushing it.

Nobody here has any need to rush this. If DT doesn't want to respond yet, there's no harm in waiting. Also, what do you say about this?

Even if 1-A does stay, it should probably be downgraded to a mere "Possibly", given the statement supporting it specifically only notes it as a possibility.

"Or perhaps it was a completely unknown space, beyond even the concept of dimensions."

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Nobody here has any need to rush this.

A "rush" is a strange way to describe this. It has, after all, been two months.

I'll respond to the other thing after we settle the matter of whether or not we are rushing it (And I say that we objectively are not)

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Nobody here has any need to rush this. If DT doesn't want to respond yet, there's no harm in waiting. Also, what do you say about this?

There is no rush. Waiting 63 days is not a rush. That is not the definition of rush. No one colloquially believes 63 days to be a rush. If DT doesn’t want to respond, despite his constant activity, and the fact that he has 7 other threads to tend to, and ignoring numerous tags, us waiting indefinitely on our thumbs isn’t our problem.

This isn’t a wiki-wide thread, it is specific to one verse. There’s been not one opposing counterargument that needs responding to. If, and when he decides to respond, he can open, or make a new thread. Simple as that.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

There is no rush. Waiting 63 days is not a rush. That is not the definition of rush. No one colloquially believes 63 days to be a rush. If DT doesn’t want to respond, despite his constant activity, and the fact that he has 7 other threads to tend to, and ignoring numerous tags, us waiting indefinitely on our thumbs isn’t our problem.

This isn’t a wiki-wide thread, it is specific to one verse. There’s been not one opposing counterargument that needs responding to. If, and when he decides to respond, he can open, or make a new thread. Simple as that.

7 threads is a bit of a doozy. I suppose that, if he appears here and displays willingness to respond in short order, we may keep this open. If all we have is a constant stream of nada, though, then closing this is the most sensible course of action I'd say.

 

[Lonkitt]

So, it has been exactly two months and two days since this thread was made, which is, of course, more than enough time for DontTalk to have posted here. Seeing as he has been seen active in other threads despite the multiple pings he's received here, it would appear he lacks either the time or the interest to respond to this one at the moment.

Given that and the fact the balance largely leans towards disagreement with this downgrade, I say we close this. If he has any objections, he can make another thread. I personally would not be opposed to waiting further, but I recognize that, objectively speaking, two months is pushing it.

There's no need to continue this thread

 

[ShivaShakti]

Nobody here has any need to rush this. If DT doesn't want to respond yet, there's no harm in waiting. Also, what do you say about this?

I'd say waiting for more than 60 days for one response is protracting it if anything.

 

[Deagonx]

If DT doesn't want to respond yet, there's no harm in waiting.

The harm is an inability to make forward progress on an otherwise concluded revision based on pending input from a single user.

I like DT, I agree with him fairly often. However, bad CRTs can be fixed with later CRTs. A complete inability to make conclude a thread can't. We should tally the votes as they are right now and if someone wants to re-address this later they can.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I strongly agree with keeping the 1-A ratings for Ultima’s reasons

Also, it’s been over two months. DT has had plenty of time to respond, so at some point, we really shouldn’t keep this thread held up given the universal staff support for keeping the ratings

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Bit late for that but I appreciate the sentiment. Nevertheless:

Just noting the current tally.

Agreements:

Neutral:

Disagreements: @Ultima_Reality, @DarkGrath, @Lonkitt, @Elizhaa, @Deagonx, @DarkDragonMedeus.

I totally didn’t forget this was a downgrade thread.

So, that makes six staff disagreements. That, coupled with lack of even a sign of life from the would-be opposition, makes me inclined to say we close this.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bit late for that but I appreciate the sentiment. Nevertheless:


So, that makes six staff disagreements. That, coupled with lack of even a sign of life from the would-be opposition, makes me inclined to say we close this.

Then can we talk about this?

Even if 1-A does stay, it should probably be downgraded to a mere "Possibly", given the statement supporting it specifically only notes it as a possibility.

"Or perhaps it was a completely unknown space, beyond even the concept of dimensions."

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Alrighty:

Even if 1-A does stay, it should probably be downgraded to a mere "Possibly", given the statement supporting it specifically only notes it as a possibility.

"Or perhaps it was a completely unknown space, beyond even the concept of dimensions."

The statement itself is framed as a possibility, yes. The fact it was mentioned as one at all is already worth of note, but nevertheless there is context from other parts of the verse that help solidify it. For example, the realm to which the 1-A statement is addressed is stated to lack directions entirely:

A cat... a black cat with silvery eyes sat with its tail wrapped around its matching limbs. Its mouth didn't move, yet it was certainly talking. In this <Place> where there is no up, down, heaven, and earth, the cat's ears twitched calmly and its silvery eyes blinked unhesitantly.

'There is no existence here, and so there is no distinction between ⟨I⟩ and ⟨Thou⟩. Though at the very least, they are necessary for dialogue to take place. Even when we ask ourselves questions, the mind creates within itself an ⟨I⟩ to assert one's opinion and a virtual ⟨Thou⟩ to oppose it. This space is, so to speak, one giant ⟨I⟩. You are but a grain of foam floating for a moment in it. To such an ⟨I⟩ like you, I will be claimed as a ⟨Thou⟩. It's just another tentative word, but it is a necessary step before dialogue can commence.

And the same verbiage is used to describe it later. It's described as having "no life or death, heaven or earth."

Slowly, they awake from their slumber. For the first time, they became aware of the tightness of their body, stretching and spreading their chest out to breathe in the fresh air, as if they were infants waking up from a comfortable slumber. Then they spread their arms and legs and swayed in place.

It was a place where there was no heaven, earth, life, and death. It was a shore of freedom, unrestrained from all of causality.

As one can gather from these scans, it is because this is a level in which everything dissolves into oneness, and therefore dualistic concepts such as Up/Down, Heaven/Earth and Life/Death don't apply there. In fact, as said in the above excerpt, any appearances of multiplicity there are virtual.

This alone already indicates that it has no dimensionality at all. So, of the two possibilities given to us in the text (It was a higher dimension vs It was something beyond even the concept of a higher dimension), clearly, the former seems to be on the losing end.

Furthermore, as we've already gone over, concepts in Megami Tensei are mind-constructed things, emanating from human minds as they shape reality. This is relevant because existence in Megami Tensei is, in fact, the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, and the tree, in turn, is stated to encompass all thought, all mental activity. Therefore, since all concepts, including the concept of dimensions, are a byproduct of mental activity, they ought to be somewhere in the Tree of Life.

Moreover, as already established, the realm that receives the 1-A statement is one of the Tree of Life's four layers. Specifically, it is the highest one, Atziluth, the archetypal world, and Atziluth has three facets: Kether, Chokmah and Binah, which are described as follows:

Kether
Symbolism: Crown
Archangel: Metatron
Planet: Tenth Heaven
The point where divinity flows out. The pure will of God, the source of all things. All existence radiates from here, and all past, present and future are here. It is both a starting point and a final destination.

Chokmah
Symbolism: Wisdom
Archangel: Raziel
Planets: Zodiac Signs
Giving active meaning to the divine power emanating from Kether, it becomes the origin of creation. It is the inspiration, the revelation, the epiphany that triggers it, and also nothing less than the wisdom of God. In that respect it is seen as a symbol of the masculine principle.

Binah
Symbol: Intelligence
Archangel: Zafkiel
Planet: Saturn
The mysterious womb of all things, the supreme mother, the fountain of creation. The seed of creation that arises in Chokmah is nurtured by Binah and guided into form for existence. A Sephirah with a passive role, sometimes interpreted as "Understanding."

These descriptions are relevant because, as stated prior, Megami Tensei's cosmogony is one in which the universe is nothing but a reflection of humanity itself, and its stages of development are likewise the stages of development of the mind. In fact, the archetypal world (Referred to by the name "Kadath" here, as Persona 2 approaches it from primarily Lovecraft-themed lens, rather than Kabbalistic ones) is just the depths of humanity's collective unconscious, which is also called the foundation and beginning of the mind itself.

So, Kether, Chokmah and Binah (Which together form Atziluth) are just mechanisms of the mind, and more specifically the ones that give origin to its contents: Chokmah is the source of all intelligence, and "the inspiration, the revelation, the epiphany that triggers it, and also nothing less than the wisdom of God," which is to say that it represents the first spark of thought that arises in the mind. It's not anything in particular, but it's the potential for further things, and thus it is the "seed" of creation.

Binah comes after and, by contrast, is its complement: It is act of giving actual coherence to that unformed initial thought. Here, things are given "form" and thereby are sent downwards into the lower worlds, and thus it is the "womb" of creation.

So, any concepts borne of human minds whatsoever will arise from the interplay of these two, and since Atziluth is specifically beyond the concept of "dimensions," we know for certain that that one, at least, is among such concepts. This goes double for Kether, of course, since it is prior to both Chokmah and Binah and is pure, complete nothingness (Source: ゲーム攻略本 付録付)SFC 真・女神転生II 攻略の手引き). Hence Chokmah is described as "giving meaning to the divine power emanating from Kether," which is to say that Kether is such a primal level of reality that there is nothing there at all.

So, TL;DR Atziluth being beyond the concept of dimensions is very well-supported by the verse.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Even if 1-A does stay, it should probably be downgraded to a mere "Possibly", given the statement supporting it specifically only notes it as a possibility.

"Or perhaps it was a completely unknown space, beyond even the concept of dimensions."

To add onto Ultima, and the fact that I’ve been meaning to reply to this. This old refutation neglects the presence of new evidence, considering the idea of movement at all only exists because it’s Serph only thinks anything is moving to begin with.

There was a faint movement in the space of nothingness, and it "moved" only because there was something that perceived it as movement. But the reaction still belonged to the realm of the unconscious, like the tossing and turning of a person in sleep.

This rhetoric is further supported in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax, during Elizabeth’s story, where she describes the Collective Unconscious as a location where up and down are indefinite.

As I’m sure you know, every dimension builds off the axis of the one is supervenes on, so a two-dimensional creature can move left and right, a trait of a one-dimensional creature, while basking in its new axis, up and down. But isn’t the case here, as the four cardinal directions don’t exist whatsoever, evidenced by them transcending all possible coordinates to take.