Medaka Kurokami vs Jill Presto

[Kaltias]

Ugh dude, she basically invalidates the concept of fate. What does tier matter here?

On a tier 2 scale at the very best.

Concepts are not absolute and beyond any scale. We don't say that Madoka Kaname and Khorne are equal "because they are conceptual"

Heck you don't even have any proof that Medaka's skill is conceptual, while we do have proof that Jill's is.

Here is another example of why tier doesn't matter if the concept itself is "invalidated". Say you can bend iron, you can basically control a universe full of iron easy peasy. Now no matter how much u try you can't make that iron stronger than diamond, cus "iron" as a concept is weaker than "diamond' and no matter how much more powerful you are (you can control unlimited amounts of iron vs 1 pound of diamond), iron just can't become stronger than diamon.

Except that as soon as that iron can take higher dimensional attacks, it is in fact stronger than diamond.

Same thing here, no matter how much more powerful ur control over fate is, if the "fate" itself is "invalid" or "useless", you can bend it all you want you won't acoplish anything. Your power might not have a limit but the concept does.

Except that it doesn't work like that.

Medaka "invalidates" a less than infinitesimal portion of the Basanos' power. You know what happens if you are punching me, i try to "negate it" and i manage to block a grand total of 0% of the energy?

I take the punch. Now replace "punch" with "fate"

 

[Kaltias]

Really you are following the "It hasn't shown any limits so you can't assume that it has them" train of tought which is like, the definition of NLF

 

[DodoNova2]

What is happening?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Really you are following the "It hasn't shown any limits so you can't assume that it has them" train of tought which is like, the definition of NLF

Yeah ok, but how can u control sth that doesn't exist? I still can't get over the fact of "control sth that doesn't exist". Cus as i said if a pre-destined fate is nullified how is an altered fate any different?

 

[Kaltias]

Because the scale is so ridiculousy higher that Jill can still manipulate it. How can you destroy a universe beyond complete erasure? You wipe it out alongside its higher dimensions.

Same here, just fate manipulation instead of destruction

 

[Kaltias]

How many votes have we got at this point? I lost count.
I obviously voted for Jill already. Apies and Kal seem to have voted for her as well. I think Monarch did too.

Firephoenix is clearly voting for Medaka.

I think there were a couple of inconclusive votes before, also.

Nah i wasn't voting. Just explaining why Medaka saying "No" to Basanos level Fate manipulation is wrong on so many levels

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Because the scale is so ridiculousy higher that Jill can still manipulate it. How can you destroy a universe beyond complete erasure? You wipe it out alongside its higher dimensions.
Same here, just fate manipulation instead of destruction

I think that would only apply to "resistant to fate manipulation" doe, not "immunity to fate" (invalidate= negate, nullify, annul, cancel , in the dictionary).


Also i never said "her fate can't be manipulated" it can be manipulated as much as you want, it won't affect "her" doe since she "negated" her own fate (stopped listening to her fate).

 

[Kaltias]

Except that.

She is not immune.

"Invalidate" implies using her own power to counter it

 

[Firephoenixearl]

"Invalidate" implies using her own power to counter it

That's not a fact doe. It could mean cutting ties with fate.(which would mean fate immunity)

 

[Kaltias]

Neat.

Now prove that it works on a High 1-B level.

And prove that it's in fact what you said because we go with the low end interpretation unless something points towards the high end.

The opposite is like me asking you to prove that this girl existing beyond time and space isn't 1-A. Can you prove it? No. Do we rate her that way? Also no, because it's a ridiculous highball

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Neat.
Now prove that it works on a High 1-B level.

And prove that it's in fact what you said because we go with the low end interpretation unless something points towards the high end.

The opposite is like me asking you to prove that this girl existing beyond time and space isn't 1-A

It was never used, so i can't really put facts from the manga here. So im gonna ask you to show me a scene where 1-B fate manipulation has worked on a character whose fate doesn't exist, or whose fate is useless due to it not having any actual influence on the actual person.

 

[Kaltias]

Easy enough.

Lucifer Morningstar

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Easy enough.
Lucifer Morningstar

So fate is meaningless to him, meaning his existence is not bound by fate in any way, yet surely enough a 1-B fate manipulation was effective on him. EVEN THOUGH he's level 1-A. I don't believe this. Being unbound by the concept of fate is enough to make ANY fate related ability invalid (medaka and lucifer if that's true for him), let alone an "immunity" of a higher tier.

 

[Kaltias]

Basanos is probably becoming 1-A.

And no, Lucifer has a feat that by your logic grants immunity. He has Medaka's feat, but better.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Basanos is probably becoming 1-A.
And no, Lucifer has a feat that by your logic grants immunity. He has Medaka's feat, but better.

Not my point. Basanos is 1-A right? Lucifer has IMMUNITY to her power AND is of a higher tier but still gets affected? I call bullshit

 

[Kaltias]

No? Lucifer is immune up to Destiny's level.

Which is infinitely above everything in Medaka Box.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No? Lucifer is immune up to Destiny's level.
Which is infinitely above everything in Medaka Box.

Ok so: 1. 1-B immunity beaten by 1-B?

and 2. It's not same as Medaka then. And it's not infinitely above cus of dimensions and whatever. For Medaka "fate" is meaningless, so what she does is not limited or affected by fate at all. She's not immune to someone's level of fate. She just exists independed of her fate.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Jill FRA

 

[Kaltias]

Look man.

Stop. You disagree with dimensions not making something infinitely above something else? Stop commenting on this wiki. Things work this way here.

You are wanking and interpreting a throwaway statement in the highest way possible. Stop, or you'll end up being banned, sooner or later.

 

[DodoNova2]

Good ...... I guess we'll have to conclude matchup quickly

Spoiler
Jill FRA

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You are wanking and interpreting a throwaway statement in the highest way possible. Stop, or you'll end up being banned, sooner or later.

Well im just saying it's not "fate immunity" but "fate independece". If Jill can still control her then it's inconclusive. Since speed is equal it's just about who uses what first.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Except that Jill's precog tells her everything she could ever possibly need to know about Medaka before the latter has even made a move. Thus prompting her to do something that nulls Medaka's move the moment she makes it, like any smart person with those powers would do if they were in her shoes.

Medaka tries to do anything offensive, and suddenly her past has been rewritten so that she never met Kumagawa or anyone else she's gotten her worthwhile powers from, thus retroactively cancelling whatever she's tried to do.

Medaka tries to do anything defensive, and suddenly she's dead past the point of All Fiction being able to save her, from something that wasn't supposed to happen to her until way into the distant future.

Or you can switch those two with each other and you'll effectively end up with the same result either way.

In other words, "who fires first" becomes "Jill sees Medaka's move coming and counters it the instant it's even thought of", like I said a mile of comments ago.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's a bit far fetched doe. 1. Medaka also has Clairvoyance and 2. The moment Jill thinks about controling fate is also the moment Medaka just erases Jill from existence or kills her in any other instant way. Why would Jill have that much time to control while Medaka can't do shit?

Also can Jill control someone with "fate independence"?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Clairvoyance <<<<<<<< Jill's precognition.

They both activate their powers with a thought. Assuming they activate at the same time, if Medaka's past is changed so that she never got her powers, her offensive move is retroactively cancelled for good and Jill is safe indefinitely. And Jill will know to do so, because she'll have already seen everything Medaka has ever done in her life, as well as everything she's currently doing, what she's about to do and what she could potentially do.

Yes, she can. This has already been gone over a good thousand times now.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

There is something wrong here:

1. Lucifer is resistant to 1-B fate manipulation and YET was affected by fate manipulation. Defies logic, there has to be something wrong.

2. Medaka and her fate are more like this: Medaka----------/ /------------Fate . There is a gap there that separates the 2 of them. And saying "being unaffected by the concept won't make u unaffected by Jill" is like saying "if TOAA erases the concept of fate jill will be unaffected by the change and still be able to manipulate ppl's fates". Fate manipulation can't close the "gap" between medaka and her fate.

3. Death Manipulation (someone brough it up). No matter how much into the future you see, if there is no "Medaka dies" moment, then it's all useless. (Medaka is immune to death, so you won't find a moment where she "dies").

4. The difference between Lucifer and Medaka is that Lucifer is just "resistent to someone's level of fate" while Medaka is "unaffected by the concept itself". So his case is not the same as Medaka, show me a scene where someone who is above the "concept of fate" not "ppl's level of fate" is affected by fate manipulation.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

A 3-D concept of fate

Also Lucifer being beyond all of Medaka's concepts by a infinite degree of uncountable infinities squared.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

A 3-D concept of fate
Also Lucifer being beyond all of Medaka's concepts by a infinite degree of uncountable infinities squared.

Hmm not rly, this is 1 of Ajimu's skills, the same person who can control the infinite, dimensions and literally anything else u might think of. (im serious think of 1 thing u want and i can find 1 ability that fixes that problem) So saying it's a 3D concept of fate even though Ajimu is not limited to/bound by dimensions is wrong.

 

[Kaltias]

Ajimu is limited by dimensions, otherwise she would have a set tier and it would be 1-A.

Now stop.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ajimu is limited by dimensions, otherwise she would have a set tier and it would be 1-A.
Now stop.

What? She controls dimensions, her skills allow her to do so. (and that's only part of her skills).

 

[Yobo_Blue]

A 3-D concept of fate
Also Lucifer being beyond all of Medaka's concepts by a infinite degree of uncountable infinities squared.

Hmm not rly, this is 1 of Ajimu's skills, the same person who can control the infinite, dimensions and literally anything else u might think of. (im serious think of 1 thing u want and i can find 1 ability that fixes that problem) So saying it's a 3D concept of fate even though Ajimu is not limited to dimensions is wrong.

Addresed above by others. Although Ajimu is above dimensions, she is not above the concept of dimensions. Although it seems unimportant, here that difference means a High 2-A rating at best. Ajimu may or may not have even that due to questions surrounding her and her character. Not to mention even if she was 1-A, So is Lucifer.

 

[Kaltias]

And?

She was also beaten up by people who are clearly bound by dimensions.

And again, i could care less about her list of skill. Show an actual feat

 

[Firephoenixearl]

And?
She was also beaten up by people who are clearly bound by dimensions.

And again, i could care less about her list of skill. Show an actual feat

Ajimu was made to lose. She can't rly lose to anyone in Medaka Box.

Ajimu has no feats cus she's just the character portrayed as "the person who can do anything, just name it" so powerful she was called "all powerful" both by characters and the author. She has skills like "all of creation" or "make all of creation sit down".

Ok fate won't work. I'll accept that.

So now: 1 of medaka's move is to always make the 1st move, read the list if you want. If medaka moves first she wins (i don't think there is any doubt on that). Does jill have any way to counter that?

Also if you don't mind can someone explain why Lucifer was beaten by 1-B fate if he's resistant to 1-B fate?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Because 1-A's are resistant to High 1-B shit by default.

And Basano's and Destiny's fate manip consistently affects 1-A's.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Because 1-A's are resistant to High 1-B shit by default.
And Basano's and Destiny's fate manip consistently affects 1-A's.

Not what i asked. Lucifer is 1-A and is resistant to 1-B's fate (is above Destiny's fate stuff). And yet he was affected by Basano's fate manip. Why?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Because 1-A's are resistant to High 1-B shit by default.
And Basano's and Destiny's fate manip consistently affects 1-A's.

Not what i asked. Lucifer is 1-A and is resistant to 1-B's fate (is above Destiny's fate stuff). And yet he was affected by Basano's fate manip. Why?

Uh... no. Basano's and Destiny do affect Lucifer. Their hax is 1-A

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Uh... no. Basano's and Destiny do affect Lucifer. Their hax is 1-A

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Abstract Existence, Non-Corporeal, Intangibility, Immortality (Types 1, 3, 4 and 10), Transduality (Transcends The Endless and creation), Conceptual Manipulation, Creation and Existence Erasure (Created The Endless as a side-effect of shaping creation, and can destroy them should he wish), Reality Warping, Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Chaos Manipulation (Wielded and shaped the primordial energy from which all was created), Matter Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Life & Death Manipulation, Acausality, Causality Manipulation, Regenerationn (True-Godly. Walked past 7 different layers of death and no-selled being inflicted with infinite deaths at once. Death herself does not apply to him. Exists beyond all levels of existence and nonexistence, in the boundless void beyond everything), Energy Manipulation, Flight, Shapeshifting, Teleportation, Telekinesis, Telepathy, Size-Shifting, Light Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Godly Magic, Nigh-Omniscience, Precognition, Immunity to Fate Manipulation(Exists outside of Destiny himself and even burned Destiny's book), Power Nullification, Law Manipulation (Shaped existence and its laws into effect)

That thing there.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Destiny is also by far the most powerful of The Endless, as everything is a part of him, and he is the only one capable of affecting Lucifer Morningstar in any way.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Destiny is also by far the most powerful of The Endless, as everything is a part of him, and he is the only one capable of affecting Lucifer Morningstar in any way.

The profie says Lucifer is "IMMUNE" and "above" destiny. So he's immune to destiny but gets affected by Basanos? Did dc shit on it's own here or is there sth wrong with the profile?

 

[TheSandman31]

The Basanos are probably going to be upgraded to 1-A soon or likely 1-A

But yeah, they affected Lucifer, but they are still far below him

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The Basanos are probably going to be upgraded to 1-A soon or likely 1-A
But yeah, they affected Lucifer, but they are still far below him

So the Basanos > Destiny and the "immunity" to fate manip on Lucifer's profile is wrong?