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The Basanos was able to affect Lucifer, who is above the concept of fate
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Medaka Kurokami vs Jill Presto
- Thread starter TheSandman31
- Start date
- Status
- 9,755
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How many votes have we got at this point? I lost count.
I obviously voted for Jill already. Apies and Kal seem to have voted for her as well. I think Monarch did too.
Firephoenix is clearly voting for Medaka.
I think there were a couple of inconclusive votes before, also.
I obviously voted for Jill already. Apies and Kal seem to have voted for her as well. I think Monarch did too.
Firephoenix is clearly voting for Medaka.
I think there were a couple of inconclusive votes before, also.
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4 for Jill
1 for Medaka
1 for Medaka
ApiesDeathbyLazors
He/Him- 7,236
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You forgot the single Inconclusive from Thatoneguy, but other then that yup, seems like 4 - 1 Jill's favor.
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Alright, it is time to fix some misinformation about Medaka, while fighting for her in favor of winning this battle.
1. @MrKingOfNegativity Medaka is indeed capable of stealing Jill's abilities. Last time I checked, Jill does not have immunity or even resistance to having her powers being copied. The argument of her not being able to copy her abilities due to the status of 1-B is moving into NLF territory. We can even bring the Ajimu status into play absolute chance that Medaka can copy Jil's abilities. Also, we can resort to a thread Hax Resistance. <----This thread backed up by majority moderators of Vsbattle and Antvasima himself in short agreement to "Unless the said character has shown some type of resistance or immunity to blatantly say a hax won't work is NLF."
Correction about Medaka's physical limits: I will have to talk with Antvasima about letting me fix that error. It isn't that Medaka can't learn skills that exceed her physical limits. Medaka cannot copy is straight-forward power or the strength of their body. She cannot make her physical capabilities innately better by copying a superior physical capability. For example, if she's not strong enough to lift a box, and Jill walks by and is strong enough to lift a box, she couldn't just copy Jill's strength by watching her lift the box. The exception to this, of course, is if Jill was using an ability or skill that boosts her physical capabilities in lifting the box, than Medaka will be able to copy that ability and mimic the box lifting better than Jill.
2. @TheSandman31 If you're restricting Jill's High 1-B immortality. You should have restricted Medaka's "The Hero" too. Also, even if you didn't restrict the 1-B immortality. Medaka can still seal Jill away with Bookmarker.
3. Jill using Death Manipulation to defeat Medaka. We can resort to the same thing as stated in number 1 with the Hax Resistance. Medaka is indeed going to counter with All Fiction and Encounter. Afterward, Medaka would have copied Jill's power and use it better than her. Even with the chance of Jill's Death Manipulation being able to pick a point in time within of possible futures of Medaka. Note the words possible futures, the same argument was used with another characters in the same situation in a different thread. Future doesn't win if you don't nullify the powers. <-- Jill putting death upon Medaka isn't going to stop Medaka from returning immediately, Jill will need to completely erase Medaka's AF and Encounter. However, Jill only option of erasing Medaka's AF and Encounter will have to be due to using Fate Manipulation and altering Medaka's past of ever obtaining those abilities to begin with. Although, if "Hero" isn't restricted that isn't happening but if it is restricted, Medaka would have copied Jill's abilities by then.
Also, to add more proof to my argument that Death Manipulation and Fate Manipulation isn't going to work. Let us run over to Lucifer Comic via chapter 27. @TheSandman31 Basanos affecting Lucifer wasn't Fate Manipulation, it was Death Manipulation due to Lucifer wings.
In regard to Fate Manipulation and Death Manipulation, Basanos was unable to do it again against Lucifer because there was no future for it. Upon Lucifer return to finish Basanos, Basanos was going to use her powers when Jill was held hostage by Lucifer, unfortunately for Basanos there no longer was a future for Lucifer for Basanos to manipulate with fate/death. Basanos realized that they played a very good hand, very badly and that they were beaten. They destroyed themselves after Lucifer promised to don't kill Jill, or their sons, unless they threatened him first. <--This adds more ground to the fact unless Jill eliminates Medaka's hax. There is no opportunity for her to completely put Medaka down completely for the battle.
Also, when Medaka get's the first move via her skill. Scar Dead if passive so instantly, every single suicide attempt by Jill and damage she has gotten will open back up.
In conclusion my vote goes to Medaka.
1. @MrKingOfNegativity Medaka is indeed capable of stealing Jill's abilities. Last time I checked, Jill does not have immunity or even resistance to having her powers being copied. The argument of her not being able to copy her abilities due to the status of 1-B is moving into NLF territory. We can even bring the Ajimu status into play absolute chance that Medaka can copy Jil's abilities. Also, we can resort to a thread Hax Resistance. <----This thread backed up by majority moderators of Vsbattle and Antvasima himself in short agreement to "Unless the said character has shown some type of resistance or immunity to blatantly say a hax won't work is NLF."
Correction about Medaka's physical limits: I will have to talk with Antvasima about letting me fix that error. It isn't that Medaka can't learn skills that exceed her physical limits. Medaka cannot copy is straight-forward power or the strength of their body. She cannot make her physical capabilities innately better by copying a superior physical capability. For example, if she's not strong enough to lift a box, and Jill walks by and is strong enough to lift a box, she couldn't just copy Jill's strength by watching her lift the box. The exception to this, of course, is if Jill was using an ability or skill that boosts her physical capabilities in lifting the box, than Medaka will be able to copy that ability and mimic the box lifting better than Jill.
2. @TheSandman31 If you're restricting Jill's High 1-B immortality. You should have restricted Medaka's "The Hero" too. Also, even if you didn't restrict the 1-B immortality. Medaka can still seal Jill away with Bookmarker.
3. Jill using Death Manipulation to defeat Medaka. We can resort to the same thing as stated in number 1 with the Hax Resistance. Medaka is indeed going to counter with All Fiction and Encounter. Afterward, Medaka would have copied Jill's power and use it better than her. Even with the chance of Jill's Death Manipulation being able to pick a point in time within of possible futures of Medaka. Note the words possible futures, the same argument was used with another characters in the same situation in a different thread. Future doesn't win if you don't nullify the powers. <-- Jill putting death upon Medaka isn't going to stop Medaka from returning immediately, Jill will need to completely erase Medaka's AF and Encounter. However, Jill only option of erasing Medaka's AF and Encounter will have to be due to using Fate Manipulation and altering Medaka's past of ever obtaining those abilities to begin with. Although, if "Hero" isn't restricted that isn't happening but if it is restricted, Medaka would have copied Jill's abilities by then.
Also, to add more proof to my argument that Death Manipulation and Fate Manipulation isn't going to work. Let us run over to Lucifer Comic via chapter 27. @TheSandman31 Basanos affecting Lucifer wasn't Fate Manipulation, it was Death Manipulation due to Lucifer wings.
In regard to Fate Manipulation and Death Manipulation, Basanos was unable to do it again against Lucifer because there was no future for it. Upon Lucifer return to finish Basanos, Basanos was going to use her powers when Jill was held hostage by Lucifer, unfortunately for Basanos there no longer was a future for Lucifer for Basanos to manipulate with fate/death. Basanos realized that they played a very good hand, very badly and that they were beaten. They destroyed themselves after Lucifer promised to don't kill Jill, or their sons, unless they threatened him first. <--This adds more ground to the fact unless Jill eliminates Medaka's hax. There is no opportunity for her to completely put Medaka down completely for the battle.
Also, when Medaka get's the first move via her skill. Scar Dead if passive so instantly, every single suicide attempt by Jill and damage she has gotten will open back up.
In conclusion my vote goes to Medaka.
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>In regard to Fate Manipulation and Death Manipulation, Basanos was unable to do it again against Lucifer because there was no future for it. Upon Lucifer return to finish Basanos, Basanos was going to use her powers when Jill was held hostage by Lucifer, unfortunately for Basanos there no longer was a future for Lucifer for Basanos to manipulate with fate/death. Basanos realized that they played a very good hand, very badly and that they were beaten. They destroyed themselves after Lucifer promised to don't kill Jill, or their sons, unless they threatened him first. <--This adds more ground to the fact unless Jill eliminates Medaka's hax. There is no opportunity for her to completely put Medaka down completely for the battle.
The Basanos was unable to do it not because there's no future for it
They were in Lucifer's Creation, seperate from the Book of Destiny which is their power source, they were blind there, thats why they were using the dogs given by Susano to find his corpse in their first place. If they were in their full power then finding the "corpse" of Lucifer wont be a problem
Its even listed on the profile of The Basanos as a weakness
Needs a host to manifest their full power and are bound by the rules of Creation. They are unable to completely predict the future when they are in another reality as their sight depends on Destiny's Book
Thats why Innocence said that Lucifer's Creation doomed them
Also, I'm not even talking about the Death Manipulation part when I said they can affect Lucifer. They pretty much guided the events that would lead to the moment of their encounter
It was also demonstrated by Noema at the final arc of Lucifer where she guided Elaine and Lucifer, who were lost in the Void to the hut where she will eventually born.
Stealing Jills power wont work when her powers are directly tied to the Basanos, its like Yvraine existence erasure which works by her channeling the power of Ynnead, or SCP-682s power tied directly to his high-d self, saying that she can steal the power these beings is NLF
The Basanos was unable to do it not because there's no future for it
They were in Lucifer's Creation, seperate from the Book of Destiny which is their power source, they were blind there, thats why they were using the dogs given by Susano to find his corpse in their first place. If they were in their full power then finding the "corpse" of Lucifer wont be a problem
Its even listed on the profile of The Basanos as a weakness
Needs a host to manifest their full power and are bound by the rules of Creation. They are unable to completely predict the future when they are in another reality as their sight depends on Destiny's Book
Thats why Innocence said that Lucifer's Creation doomed them
Also, I'm not even talking about the Death Manipulation part when I said they can affect Lucifer. They pretty much guided the events that would lead to the moment of their encounter
It was also demonstrated by Noema at the final arc of Lucifer where she guided Elaine and Lucifer, who were lost in the Void to the hut where she will eventually born.
Stealing Jills power wont work when her powers are directly tied to the Basanos, its like Yvraine existence erasure which works by her channeling the power of Ynnead, or SCP-682s power tied directly to his high-d self, saying that she can steal the power these beings is NLF
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No one is saying Jill resists or is immune to power copying.Mr. Common Sense said:
We are saying that Medaka copying something that is literally infinite degress of infinity above anything she has ever shown before, is the NLF on Medaka's part.
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Also, why are you comparing Medaka to a 1-A. Unlike Lucifer, Medaka isnt infinite times more powerful than them.
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Anyway, I'll count your vote
Jill: 4
Medaka: 2
Inconclusive:1
Jill: 4
Medaka: 2
Inconclusive:1
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Battle Starts
Jill makes Medaka's fate to die instantly.
Medaka invalidates her fate.
Medaka finds that invalidating a High 1-B fate, when the highest level of power in Medaka Box is at maximum High 2-A, is beyond her paygrade.
Medaka tries to All Fiction her own death
Medaka finds that erasing a High 1-B fate is also beyond her paygrade.
Medaka is dead.
Jill makes Medaka's fate to die instantly.
Medaka invalidates her fate.
Medaka finds that invalidating a High 1-B fate, when the highest level of power in Medaka Box is at maximum High 2-A, is beyond her paygrade.
Medaka tries to All Fiction her own death
Medaka finds that erasing a High 1-B fate is also beyond her paygrade.
Medaka is dead.
Rikimarox2
He/Him- 7,940
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Jill FRA.
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you have no proof its only 2AMonarch Laciel said:
if you do then post it or you are talking BS
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I think Ant mentioned that he believes Ajimu could possibly be 1-B
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alot of people believe in a tier 1 ajimuTheSandman31 said:
the ToS of this site even says to not attempt to set a tiering to ajimu which is what monarch is trying to do
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Ajimu, the verse's god tier, has a skill that lets her transcend higher dimensional space.AjimuPlaysMaplestory said:
The only dimensions in the verse that have been shown are the first 4. Transcending that would make her High 2-A.
And that's assuming we even take that skill seriously, which we don't, which is why she is rated as Unknown.
And you misunderstand something about debating. I don't have to prove a negative, you need to prove a positive. In other words, I do not need to prove that the verse is not higher than High 2-A. You are the one who needs to prove that it is higher than High 2-A
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Ajimu, the verse's god tier, has a skill that lets her transcend higher dimensional space.
The only dimensions in the verse that have been shown are the first 4. Transcending that would make her High 2-A.
And that's assuming we even take that skill seriously, which we don't, which is why she is rated as Unknown
so does that mean if I dont take jill seriously I can deactivate her powers too?
interesting
I no longer believe in jills powers
I think you mean that YOU do not take it seriously
The only dimensions in the verse that have been shown are the first 4. Transcending that would make her High 2-A.
And that's assuming we even take that skill seriously, which we don't, which is why she is rated as Unknown
so does that mean if I dont take jill seriously I can deactivate her powers too?
interesting
I no longer believe in jills powers
I think you mean that YOU do not take it seriously
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The funny thing is I do take it seriously. High 2-A Ajimu does not seem unreasonable given the nature of the story.
But my voice is one among many many other people on this wiki who have instead rated Ajimu as Unknown. The wiki does not believe in High 2-A Ajimu. Hence why her profile does not have her as High 2-A.
And it is the profiles we go by here.
But my voice is one among many many other people on this wiki who have instead rated Ajimu as Unknown. The wiki does not believe in High 2-A Ajimu. Hence why her profile does not have her as High 2-A.
And it is the profiles we go by here.
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Jill fra
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And that takes us to seven votes for Jill. (Kal, Lephyr, myself, Monarch, Apies, Rikimarox, Vapsiz)
Grace period starts now.
Grace period starts now.
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I'd like to see proof for Tier 1 Ajimu, because belief alone means nothing.AjimuPlaysMaplestory said:
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I know i'm late but Medaka For Common Reason's.
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medaka for common's reasons as well
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Veloxt1r0kore said:
You both realise his reasons were debunked right?AjimuPlaysMaplestory said:
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I still don't get how being above the concept will not get u out of fate manipulation.
Yes Jill is 1-B and Medaka sure as hell is not that strong (or hasn't shown to be at least). So for example....Skill Zero wouldn't work on her, that i agree. Medaka nullifying the skills of a 1-B would be NFL. Ok. But being controled by fate while not having a fate, is just plain bullshit. Lucifer has "immunity to fate manipulation" which means u can't alter his fate because he is above the concept, but u can alter other ppl's fate to acomplish a similar result. Example u can control my fate to go meet a friend or if you can't u can manipulate his fate to come meet me. That could be the case here. If it's not that his immunity sucks. Also Medaka is not above her concept of fate. She HAS no concept of fate.
Also as i said before/ common's reasons death won't work on medaka, no matter how she dies in the future, it's just an ordinary death. Saying it's "1-B death manipulation" is plainly dumb, it's like saying "if you get shot by the same gun but the 1st time it's an ordinary guy and the 2nd time goku is holding the gun, the 2nd gun would be more powerful". You are still using a gun. No matter what tier, if medaka dies of having her head smashed by a rock in the future, the user can be 1-A tier and she will come back, it's just a feking rock.
Yes Jill is 1-B and Medaka sure as hell is not that strong (or hasn't shown to be at least). So for example....Skill Zero wouldn't work on her, that i agree. Medaka nullifying the skills of a 1-B would be NFL. Ok. But being controled by fate while not having a fate, is just plain bullshit. Lucifer has "immunity to fate manipulation" which means u can't alter his fate because he is above the concept, but u can alter other ppl's fate to acomplish a similar result. Example u can control my fate to go meet a friend or if you can't u can manipulate his fate to come meet me. That could be the case here. If it's not that his immunity sucks. Also Medaka is not above her concept of fate. She HAS no concept of fate.
Also as i said before/ common's reasons death won't work on medaka, no matter how she dies in the future, it's just an ordinary death. Saying it's "1-B death manipulation" is plainly dumb, it's like saying "if you get shot by the same gun but the 1st time it's an ordinary guy and the 2nd time goku is holding the gun, the 2nd gun would be more powerful". You are still using a gun. No matter what tier, if medaka dies of having her head smashed by a rock in the future, the user can be 1-A tier and she will come back, it's just a feking rock.
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TheSandman31 said:
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Also, immunity is NLF, so are you saying that even a tier high 1-A cant fate manip her? how about tier 0? because thats what youre saying, that she is completely immune to any level of fate manip
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She's not above the concept though...Firephoenixearl said:
You are taking the name of a skill "Fate Invalid" to its highest possible level without any justification.
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She can't be controlled by what she doesn't have. Tier 0 can control her fate, but that's by using other means. Tier 0 reconnects her to her fate and then controls her. No tier can simply fate manipulate her cus she "doesn't have a fate". Even tier 1-A level of color manipulation would be rendered useless in Kumagawa Vs Ezumachi, cus no matter how strong ur control, if it doesn't "exist" you can't control it.TheSandman31 said:
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No i just take it at face value. Invalidate fate means to render it useless. No tier can just "reconnect" her to her fate by fate manipulation.Monarch Laciel said:
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This....this is too much wanking and NLF,stop.
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This is a bit too much tiering doe. You're saying since i can control rocks to a 1-A level i can beat the shit out of intangability. It's all useless if the concept itself is useless.Veloxt1r0kore said:
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You know what the tier 1-A and the 0 exactly?
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Yes i do, but if you can control to no limits something that is useless to it's core, it's still useless. If you can reverse the fate of whatever you want and do whatever u want with the fate. If fate itself just doesn't exist, you can't control it. So for example if we give Kumagawa no limits erasure and he erases the concept of fate from everything, are you saying Jill will still control fate EVEN THOUGH it doesn't exist at all?Veloxt1r0kore said:
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"her fate doesn't exist"
"above the concept of fate"
"her book is just a book"
Wrong .
She has a skill called "fate invalid", and that's all the details we have on it. Presumably, it invalidates her fate. Ez pz to understand. Now show feats of this skill invalidating High 1-B fate. If you don't, that skill is irrelevant. End of story.
"above the concept of fate"
"her book is just a book"
Wrong .
She has a skill called "fate invalid", and that's all the details we have on it. Presumably, it invalidates her fate. Ez pz to understand. Now show feats of this skill invalidating High 1-B fate. If you don't, that skill is irrelevant. End of story.
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Ugh dude, she basically invalidates the concept of fate. What does tier matter here? Here is another example of why tier doesn't matter if the concept itself is "invalidated". Say you can bend iron, you can basically control a universe full of iron easy peasy. Now no matter how much u try you can't make that iron stronger than diamond, cus "iron" as a concept is weaker than "diamond' and no matter how much more powerful you are (you can control unlimited amounts of iron vs 1 pound of diamond), iron just can't become stronger than diamon. Same thing here, no matter how much more powerful ur control over fate is, if the "fate" itself is "invalid" or "useless", you can bend it all you want you won't acoplish anything. Your power might not have a limit but the concept does.Monarch Laciel said:
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I hate to live up to my own name for a moment, but you probably will.Kaltias said:
Not that it'll make much difference in the end, but yeah.
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That's not what im saying. I am giving proof that the concept of "fate" is useless on medaka therefore fate control can't reach/control her. Im not saying "medaka wins cus she's medaka HAAA *** u all" she has the abilities to counter Jill so she can win. Invalidate = Negate or Nullify (dictionary), negate fate is not "resistent to fate" if that were the case then yeah Jill's fate control would be above medaka, but to nullify fate is a different case.Kaltias said:
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