Mechikabura downgrades

[VinnyXD]

i wouldn't be surprised if dbh 2-a tier gets removed entirely on this site.

They are getting stomped at that tier sooooo

 

[VinnyXD]

Tru, depends if the Manga version gets accepted

We already use the manga

 

[My_area]

So far still agreeing with StrymUltra arguments

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm fine with the Absorption removal.

 

[Planck69]

In this case, should we also remove Fusion Zamasu's Higher-Dimensional Existence since he and Mechikabura have it for the same reason (Merging with 4-D constructs; Zamasu with the universe and Mechikabura with the black hole)?

In Zamasu's case, he merges with it and exists across it. In Mechikabura's case, he just absorbs it. And the black hole itself isn't really higher-dimensional if I understood this right.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Looking at the manga, anime and arcade This is my opinion. The manga clearly shows him create the absorption black hole, the arcade is somewhat vague, it implies he started absorbing everything when he transformed, although since we don't get to see it in real time it's impossible to know for sure if it passively started happening, or he activated the absorption, you could argue either. However given the nature of the black hole as already absorbing things, and the fact he seemingly took control of it while it's intact, I would lean toward it making more sense that it is passive unless he suppresses it given the nature of the object. The anime says "Enveloping himself in darkness, Mechikabura buried everything in the Darkness" and shows his growing aura as the context for this. So I would say the anime implies his passive aura is the thing "absorbing" or enveloping everything in darkness. Although , the absorption aspect in the anime is not as prominent and explored, aside from him "burying everything in darkness", but given the context from the manga and anime it is likely referring to him absorbing the histories.



I would say you could argue it is implied passive for arcade and anime based on the nature of the black hole already being passive and ongoing, and under his control, and the absorption happening as soon as he transforms, but not so in the manga. So I wouldn't fault anybody if they decided to treat it as passive or not tbh, I would personally consider it passive myself though.

As for HDE, he absorbs and contains the intact multiverse within himself, which his dark factor/dark energy, that is a conscious extension of himself as seen in BBM permeates and can act through. So part of him is fundamentally an infinite 4D construct. His regeneration is even attributed to his fusion with the multiverse and time specifically on some level. It does seem at first glance his body is still 3D, but then again they battle in a void left after the multiverse disappears so things may not be as they seem tbf. I almost see his multiverse as similar to the TARDIS situation, where he seems normal size on the outside, but inside he holds a much larger, Infinite higher dimensional construct. And the TARDIS does have HDE (Albeit it does explicitly exist in higher dimensions, but it does seem at first glance to be a 3D object like Mechi). If that's not enough for HDE though then go ahead and remove it, although I feel it qualifies.

So in short I would personally consider the abilities justified, but I also wouldn't fault somebody for arguing otherwise since they are implied.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

And the black hole itself isn't really higher-dimensional if I understood this right.

Chronoa states that it's a fourth-dimensional construct.

 

[Planck69]

That doesn't quite sound like a higher-dimensional construct anymore than something like a pocket dimension would be but I don't know how we treat space-time on a small scale so eh.

 

[Vietthai96]

That doesn't quite sound like a higher-dimensional construct anymore than something like a pocket dimension would be but I don't know how we treat space-time on a small scale so eh.

The universe in Fu hand also look look a golf ball so it also a pocket dimension is it?. From Mechi perspective yes it look like a soccer ball, but from Time Patrol who got sucked inside that black hole it look like an endless void, so it is legit infinite in size

 

[Planck69]

I mean, I guess. Not as though it really changes anything.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Chronoa states that it's a fourth-dimensional construct.

That was reffering to the dimension inside Mechi, not the Black Hole itself.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Looking at the manga, anime and arcade This is my opinion. The manga clearly shows him create the absorption black hole, the arcade is somewhat vague, it implies he started absorbing everything when he transformed, although since we don't get to see it in real time it's impossible to know for sure if it passively started happening, or he activated the absorption, you could argue either. However given the nature of the black hole as already absorbing things, and the fact he seemingly took control of it while it's intact, I would lean toward it making more sense that it is passive unless he suppresses it given the nature of the object. The anime says "Enveloping himself in darkness, Mechikabura buried everything in the Darkness" and shows his growing aura as the context for this. So I would say the anime implies his passive aura is the thing "absorbing" or enveloping everything in darkness. Although , the absorption aspect in the anime is not as prominent and explored, aside from him "burying everything in darkness", but given the context from the manga and anime it is likely referring to him absorbing the histories.

Issue is that in your clip he doesen't even absorb passively everything, but rather creates a "dark purple aura" which expands "a lot", so that can be perfectly interpreted as it being the absorption.

As for HDE, he absorbs and contains the intact multiverse within himself, which his dark factor/dark energy, that is a conscious extension of himself as seen in BBM permeates and can act through. So part of him is fundamentally an infinite 4D construct.

Nothing said so, is just a Black Hole that absorbs space-time, nothing like that.

His regeneration is even attributed to his fusion with the multiverse and time specifically on some level. It does seem at first glance his body is still 3D, but then again they battle in a void left after the multiverse disappears so things may not be as they seem tbf. I almost see his multiverse as similar to the TARDIS situation, where he seems normal size on the outside, but inside he holds a much larger, Infinite higher dimensional construct. And the TARDIS does have HDE (Albeit it does explicitly exist in higher dimensions, but it does seem at first glance to be a 3D object like Mechi). If that's not enough for HDE though then go ahead and remove it, although I feel it qualifies.

Thing is that the TARDIS on the profiles have HDE because Higher-Dimensional Existence (Exists conterminously with the 5th Dimension), aka an unrelated reason. Absorbing 4D stuff isn't 4D Existence as lots of charas here do so and yet aren't HDE.

 

[StrymULTRA]

However given the nature of the black hole as already absorbing things, and the fact he seemingly took control of it while it's intact, I would lean toward it making more sense that it is passive unless he suppresses it given the nature of the object.

Forgot to mention that we have already setient Black Holes which don't have passives, so using "but is a Black Hole so is passive" doesen't work.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump, including to say that other than Quantum Man, MCU Dormammu hasn't HDE despite being made of space-time and and absorbing timelines, so yeah, Mechikabura having both HDE and Absorption being passive is even contradicted from profiles of characters with similar abilities and context.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm fine with the Absorption removal.

What about the HDE tho

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

The only thing i can give input is absorption not being passive seems legit considering he says "power" and then is seems to be activated. Whatever else here tho idk seems like those need a CRT on its own

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @SSJRyu1

What should we do here?

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Antvasima
It is at least implied to likely be passive absorption in arcade and anime imo with his aura being implied to absorb/envelope everything in anime, and it starting as soon as he transforms in arcade. Although not in manga where he activates it. So perhaps a "possibly" or "likely" passive based on those 2 sources since there is a good chance, but we are not 100% sure? That would be what I would recommend.

As for HDE, if his body containing, fusing with and controlling to some degree infinite intact histories which can't be separated from him counts, then he should keep it (he did not just absorb energy, the histories themselves still exist as part of his body). I feel it's sufficient, but If it's not sufficient then remove it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It is at least implied to likely be passive absorption in arcade and anime imo. Although not manga. So perhaps a "possibly" or "likely" passive based on those sources since there is a good chance, but we are not 100% sure? That would be what I would recommend.

Issue is that as you said, is vague, and the manga clarifies its nature, so as the manga made it clear how it works, it should just be active. not passive, plus setient Black Holes in the wiki don't have passive absorption.

As for HDE, if his body containing, fusing with and controlling infinite intact histories which can't be separated from him counts, then he should keep it (he did not just absorb energy, the histories themselves still exist as part of his body). I feel it's sufficient, but If it's not sufficient then remove it.

1) Nothing stated that he fused with them, but absorbed, Occam's Razor supports this as is more an assumption saying he fused rather than just absorbing.
2) Absorbing and having inside timelines isn't HDE as shown with MCU Dormammu or Quantum Man.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Nah, the anime treats his passive aura as the enveloping darkness/absorption, and the arcade treats the absorption differently than the manga, where the manga has him activate it later, but the arcade has it active as soon as he transforms, so not comparable imo. Although there is room for interpreting that it might not be passive so that's why my recommendation of "likely" or "possibly" passive isn't changing.

1) the histories are shown and stated still to exist inside him in manga, not just energy. And he gets his regen due to making history/time part of him. Also the individuals are still inside him, showing that he is not just turning things to energy. His dark energy also is permeating everything, which as seen in BBM is his consciousness as well, so disagree.

2) I'm unsure if that's an oversight or standard tbh. My personal opinion is it should qualify. Like I said, if having a higher dimensional multiverse as a part of you is sufficient then he should keep it, if not then it should be replaced with higher dimensional manipulation (which he should honestly have regardless being able to manipulate the multiverse).

 

[Antvasima]

SSJRyu1 seems to make sense to me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nah, the anime treats his passive aura as the enveloping darkness/absorption

????
I saw it but nothing suggests that.

but the arcade has it active as soon as he transforms, so not comparable imo.

He starts absorbing after the monologue, since Towa felt being dragged only after that Mechi finished talking, plus the whole "be devouted in the darkness" final quote supports it being an active power.

2) I'm unsure if that's an oversight or standard tbh. My personal opinion is it should qualify. Like I said, if having a higher dimensional multiverse as a part of you is sufficient then he should keep it, if not then it should be replaced with higher dimensional manipulation (which he should honestly have regardless being able to manipulate the multiverse).

That's definitely better, yes

 

[SSJRyu1]

It states he enveloped everything in darkness in anime, with his aura as context for that, and that would likely be a reference to his absorption that we see in manga and arcade. Although the nature of the absorption is not as explored in anime.

Id argue the absorption likely happened during the monologue and it only ramped up to absorb Towa at that point. Saying be devoured in darkness doesn't really prove he activated it at that point, he would say that even if it were already active previously and their absorption was immanent.

Also we know the black hole was already absorbing stuff prior to Mechi transforming, so I don't see a reason to believe it randomly stops personally.

So it is implied to be passive in anime and arcade upon transformation, although I would place it as "likely" or "possibly" due to the fact it is somewhat vague in anime and we don't see it in real time in arcade.

As for HDE, he should have higher dimensional manipulation for sure no matter what happens, and I am unsure if him absorbing and fusing with the intact multiverse qualifies or not, although imo it should as part of him is an infinite 4D construct but you would need somebody on standards for HDE to decide if it qualifies per wiki standards.

 

[Dominodalek]

I wouldn't give too much credence to the visuals from the anime recap, since - besides the anime being a poor source in the first place - the footage backing that was taken from his later fight with Trunks and Vegito.

Mechikabura later uses the absorption as a threat against Salsa and Shroom during UM12, which supports the idea that it's something he chooses to do.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well he can certainly turn it off and on as he does after absorbing the multiverse, although it does seem to absorb everything as soon as he transforms in the anime and arcade at least, and iirc the black hole was already active upon his acquisition of it, so I would say it's a strong likelihood it passively absorbs initially upon his transformation, and he can choose to suppress it, although since it's only implied I would say a likely or possibly is a more appropriate rating for it's passive nature.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I was about to agree with the removal of both passive absorption and HDE, but SSJ's arguments cause me to back off for now, as I am not familiar with DBH at all so I can add nothing of impact, and I only came by request.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It states he enveloped everything in darkness in anime, with his aura as context for that, and that would likely be a reference to his absorption that we see in manga and arcade. Although the nature of the absorption is not as explored in anime.

Id argue the absorption likely happened during the monologue and it only ramped up to absorb Towa at that point. Saying be devoured in darkness doesn't really prove he activated it at that point, he would say that even if it were already active previously and their absorption was immanent.

Also we know the black hole was already absorbing stuff prior to Mechi transforming, so I don't see a reason to believe it randomly stops personally.

So it is implied to be instant in anime and arcade upon transformation, although I would place it as "likely" or "possibly" due to the fact it is somewhat vague in anime and we don't see it in real time in arcade.

I can say possibly, but even then, I'd say that is thanks to the aura, so is a "semi-passive" thing like Nen Crush, which has things as Fear Hax which activate when the Aura is on.

As for HDE, he should have higher dimensional manipulation for sure no matter what happens, and I am unsure if him absorbing and fusing with the intact multiverse qualifies or not, although imo it should as part of him is an infinite 4D construct but you would need somebody on standards for HDE to decide if it qualifies per wiki standards.

We saw just him absorbing these timelines, that's Higher Dimensional Manipulation at most, HDE is definitely an assumption

 

[SSJRyu1]

I'm fine with saying possibly passive absorption since I think that is a reasonable conservative analysis. I think HDM is obvious and everybody agrees it should be added.
HDE I am unsure the standards on the wiki for. Somebody who set those standards would have to let us know if having an intact infinite 4D multiverse you absorbed and fused with as part of yourself qualifies or not, since its not just mere energy he absorbed. I personally think it is enough since part of you is 4D, but that's my standards lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm fine with saying possibly passive absorption since I think that is a reasonable conservative analysis. I think HDM is obvious and everybody agrees it should be added.

My personal suggestion, for an even more conservative end, is to correlate Aura and Absorption, as it's like the various ""passives"" of Nen, which are activated when Aura is on.

About HDE, for a safer opinion, replacing it with HDM is the best solution up to now, again, nothing said he fused with these universes.

 

[sanicspood]

so whats going away and whats staying?

 

[StrymULTRA]

so whats going away and whats staying?

In short:

• HDE will likely be removed and just be Higher Dimensional Manipulation
• Passive Absorption instead will be wither "likely passive" or just "semi-passive" when the aura gets activated like Nen's haxes.

 

[sanicspood]

alright

 

[SSJRyu1]

Saying Absorption is "likely passive" well his aura is active is accurate and reasonable imo, it can be switched off as he shows after absorbing the multiverse after all. His aura is special though among DB due to his dark factor, power of time and the black hole he absorbed. Although for vs battles he by default upon transformation is powering up and emitting a growing aura, so it should start as activated in TPU form at least by default, if the OP wants to clarify he starts with it not activated then that's fine though.

HDM is a reasonable add that everybody agrees with.

I would still like some staff who are knowledgeable on wiki standards regarding HDE to clarify if HDE can be given for absorbing, controlling and fusing with an intact multiverse, which is a very large scale 4D structure, since that means at least part of you is 4D. I think it should but there is no clarification of this scenario on the HDE page.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I would still like some staff who are knowledgeable on wiki standards regarding HDE to clarify if HDE can be given for absorbing, controlling and fusing with an intact multiverse, which is a very large scale 4D structure, since that means at least part of you is 4D. I think it should but there is no clarification of this scenario on the HDE page.

Should we contact Ultima about this?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Saying Absorption is "likely passive" well his aura is active is accurate and reasonable imo, it can be switched off as he shows after absorbing the multiverse after all. His aura is special though among DB due to his dark factor, power of time and the black hole he absorbed. Although for vs battles he by default upon transformation is powering up and emitting a growing aura, so it should start as activated in TPU form at least by default, if the OP wants to clarify he starts with it not activated then that's fine though.

That's basically how Nen works tho, the Fear, Death and Madness hax are related to the Aura, as the latter is active, they're active too, and thus is how it should be Mechi's absorption, as it's related to the Aura yeah.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Ultima could probably give some insight to if HDE qualifies.

Pretty much yeah its similar to nen, I wanted to specify that he naturally starts with an aura as he transforms and upon entering that TPU state, until he suppresses it later and stops, so for the sake of a battle it would be active at the start unless OP specifies otherwise, since that would inevitably come up on how it functions.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Stating that an ability is not passive, but would still be on immediately in battle is fine. This would just have to be labeled as a note on the profile.

HDM also seems to be well-agreed upon, so I stand behind it. And if questions need to be answered about HDE and its qualifications, then I can wait on that.