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MCU 8-C AP / Lifting Strength revision

Qawsedf234

Qawsedf234

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Okay time to finally get this sorted through.

Class <100
  • Currently the scaling is based on Deathlok, but considering AoS has been somewhat decanonized it being used a basis for half the franchise isn't really useable at the moment
  • Winter Soldier's Class 100 feat with the metal arm is fine, but at the same time its not like everyone scales to that since most people on his level get consistently overpowered by it unless they're Spider-Man or Iron Man
  • The Class 50 feats preformed by Iron Man and War Machine are fine. The issue being is that none of the Cap people scale to this anymore
So basically we need to do the following
  • Actually get feats for Cap people to scale two
  • Iron out how we're scaling Iron Man combat suits to his non-combat armor
A major issue here is that, honestly, the Class 100 scaling was more or less always questionable. None of Cap's other feats even approaches the casualness of the Class 100 thing we scale him to currently. It all needs to be ironed out.

As another issue, since NWH came out we also have to determine how we're scaling the TASM and Raimi characters. Since they're current LS ratings do not match up with what was shown in the movie (Tobey Spider-Man matching Holland Spider-Man, Lizard and Doc Ock overpowering Holland Spider-Man and everything with Green Goblin)

8-C

So with that out of the way time to cover this part. Currently these are the 8-C justifications
  • Iron Man's arc reactors and him fighting people like Iron Monger who can withstand the unibeam
  • Scaling the Deathlok
  • Scaling BP to a Wakanda Spear obliterating a tank
  • Spider-Man scaling to TASM Electro/Raimi Pumpkin Bombs
So to cover each one
  • Is fine. But now no one scales to Iron Man's earlier suits since the Mark 46 back scaling is no longer valid
  • We're no longer scaling main universe people to Deathlok
GJ did not say a spear would destroy a tank. He said the following
Look at this. A handheld sonic cannon powerful enough to stop a tank
Click to expand...
There's no evidence that the spear is going to violently fragment a tank. So the 8-C calc isn't valid for the spear. It would just be 9-A for being able to pierce and stop modern MBTs
  • Spider-Man's 8-C showings are all valid. However, none of the Cap level people can scale to this. Spider-Man (when he wasn't an idiot) was superior to all of them and the only time he took damage from Cap in their fight was when he was hit by the vibranium shield.
So to summarize:
  • We have to determine what the Super Soldiers actually scale to lifting strength wise
  • We have to determine how the earlier Iron Man suits scale to the Mark 46
  • We have to determine what a replacement rating for the 8-C stuff is at the moment. Now before someone gets into a rapid fan rage frenzy, they can keep their 8-C scaling, they just need new justifications. If they don't have any then they will need to be downgraded.
That's all.
 
I'm neutral on AoS scaling. The old idea was always that it was canon up to Infinity War, but recent statements have really confused things. I suppose it might be wise to remove those scaling until further confirmation, I don't mind them staying either. Do remember we'll also have to downgrade Ronan the Accuser and a couple of AoS characters than currently cross scale. I'll have a quick check if I have time.

Bucky's metal arm is incredibly inconsistent. Black Panther and Captain America can sometimes restrain it but sometimes gets completely overpowered like when Cap got pushed into an elevator shaft when using both hands to resist. I think Spider-Man catching Bucky should be treated as an outlier/Bucky not punching with full force as he wasn't mind controlled. But then we see non mind controlled Bucky hold his own against Black Panther and seemed to knock him back with a metal arm upper cut. Not even Iron Man scales to Bucky's metal arm by the way. Heck he got outgrappled by Bucky's normal arm. His LS showing in the final fight Is equal or even inferior to Cap and Bucky, even though he punches harder.

I think it's fair to say Bucky's arm is stronger than everyone not God tier.

If we do agree to remove the AoS scaling, my opinion would be something along the lines of "at least Class 25/50 (insert Cap feats, insert Spider-Man feats), possibly Class 100 (can contend, albeit barely, with WS metal arm)".

Not sure if it's derailing but I've been wanting to downgrade Deathlok for a while as well, his 8-C feat is also bullshit looking back at my calc.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Not sure if it's derailing but I've been wanting to downgrade Deathlok for a while as well, his 8-C
Click to expand...
Considering that if we keep the cross scaling in some capacity we'll have to keep Deathlok's stats, any downgrade to him would be relevant to the thread.
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Heck he got outgrappled by Bucky's normal arm. His LS showing in the final fight Is equal or even inferior to Cap and Bucky, even though he punches harder.
Click to expand...
He does get scenes like this though
 
Coolboy6 said:
I don’t agree with this because Tony states that Cap could have easily beaten him if he wanted to
Click to expand...
But that doesn't discount that the shield is the only thing that Captain America did that notably damaged Spider-Man. The black eye he got was from when Cap hit him with a shield bash and he didn't have any other injures from their encounter from what I remember.
Coolboy6 said:
Spidey seemingly even without his shield when he started fighting seriously.
Click to expand...
Yeah I didn't really know how to take that. Since the action he did right before messed up Spider-Man's posture before he was thrown.
 
Spider-Man and Captain America seemed pretty matched in strength in their fight to me, we have a few moments in which Cap grabs his web and they pretty much tie in a tug of war. The contradicting feat would be him grabbing Winter Soldier's metal arm casually, but that's more of an outlier imo and scaling to Cap seems to be the non-outlier one with Iron Man even saying Cap would have beaten him (due to a skill gap most likely, but you at least have to be in the same ballpark of strength).

Neither of them were injured from their fight, but neither of them were trying to hurt each other as well.

Btw with a quick check the only movie character that relies on AoS cross scaling is Ronan the Accuser. However a bunch of AoS characters scale to Asgardians in the movies.
 
Before it was made pretty clear than it was canon pre-Infinity War. HYDRA and SHIELD existing in Age of Ultron are also due to its events. But recent statements from the Marvel overlords have been confusing.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
The contradicting feat would be him grabbing Winter Soldier's metal arm casually, but that's more of an outlier imo and scaling to Cap seems to be the non-outlier one with Iron Man even saying Cap would have beaten him (due to a skill gap most likely, but you at least have to be in the same ballpark of strength).
Click to expand...
Yeah I guess you're right. But still that means we need to find Spider-Man scaling for this incarnation for any scaling stuff.
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
However a bunch of AoS characters scale to Asgardians in the movies.
Click to expand...
Since AoS considers the movies canon we can always just say its a one way street or something like with What If.
 
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
following
Although I'm pretty sure SHIELD and Hydra in AoU is due to the winter soldier, not AOS
Click to expand...
The whole thing was SHIELD collapsed in TWS, but suddenly HYDRA was back and Nick Fury could summon an army of helicarriers because of AoS restoring SHIELD. It was a criticism to the mvoie back then that you had to watch the shows to understand that.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Okay time to finally get this sorted through.

Class <100
  • Currently the scaling is based on Deathlok, but considering AoS has been somewhat decanonized it being used a basis for half the franchise isn't really useable at the moment
  • Winter Soldier's Class 100 feat with the metal arm is fine, but at the same time its not like everyone scales to that since most people on his level get consistently overpowered by it unless they're Spider-Man or Iron Man
  • The Class 50 feats preformed by Iron Man and War Machine are fine. The issue being is that none of the Cap people scale to this anymore
So basically we need to do the following
  • Actually get feats for Cap people to scale two
  • Iron out how we're scaling Iron Man combat suits to his non-combat armor
A major issue here is that, honestly, the Class 100 scaling was more or less always questionable. None of Cap's other feats even approaches the casualness of the Class 100 thing we scale him to currently. It all needs to be ironed out.

As another issue, since NWH came out we also have to determine how we're scaling the TASM and Raimi characters. Since they're current LS ratings do not match up with what was shown in the movie (Tobey Spider-Man matching Holland Spider-Man, Lizard and Doc Ock overpowering Holland Spider-Man and everything with Green Goblin)

8-C

So with that out of the way time to cover this part. Currently these are the 8-C justifications
  • Iron Man's arc reactors and him fighting people like Iron Monger who can withstand the unibeam
  • Scaling the Deathlok
  • Scaling BP to a Wakanda Spear obliterating a tank
  • Spider-Man scaling to TASM Electro/Raimi Pumpkin Bombs
So to cover each one
  • Is fine. But now no one scales to Iron Man's earlier suits since the Mark 46 back scaling is no longer valid
  • We're no longer scaling main universe people to Deathlok
Click to expand...
1. Seems fine, since the Mark 46 is, as you stated with the Wakanda files, is a non-combatant armor and thus weaker than his combat-oriented armors.

2. Deathlok's 8-C calc is sus anyway, it was a gas explosion and he wasn't at the epicenter, plus he lost an arm and a leg to it AFAIK.

Qawsedf234 said:
GJ did not say a spear would destroy a tank. He said the following

There's no evidence that the spear is going to violently fragment a tank. So the 8-C calc isn't valid for the spear. It would just be 9-A for being able to pierce and stop modern MBTs
Click to expand...
Yeah we don't use the tank-busting calc in any capacity ATM, right now that calc is just a common feat calc that the MCU cast doesn't scale to.

Qawsedf234 said:
  • Spider-Man's 8-C showings are all valid. However, none of the Cap level people can scale to this. Spider-Man (when he wasn't an idiot) was superior to all of them and the only time he took damage from Cap in their fight was when he was hit by the vibranium shield.
Click to expand...
Eh, no, Cap sent him flying hard with a roll-kick.

Qawsedf234 said:
So to summarize:
  • We have to determine what the Super Soldiers actually scale to lifting strength wise
Click to expand...
I've been thinking about that. We need a calc of that rhino thing that BP overpowered, that i-beam thing Cap lifted to save Bucky and anything else we can find.

Qawsedf234 said:
  • We have to determine how the earlier Iron Man suits scale to the Mark 46
Click to expand...
Its only saving grace is the Arc Reactor's 10 gigawatt statement but given that the Wakanda files already states that it's a non-combatant armor I doubt it'd be able to utilize the full potential of the Arc Reactor like his previous armors, since Iron Man got overpowered pretty handily by both Cap and Buck.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
The whole thing was SHIELD collapsed in TWS, but suddenly HYDRA was back and Nick Fury could summon an army of helicarriers because of AoS restoring SHIELD. It was a criticism to the mvoie back then that you had to watch the shows to understand that.
Click to expand...
Didn't he just bring back one helicarrier for Ultron alongside a bunch of rescue pads?
 
I attempted to calculate the metal beam thing before but the calc group members said it's probably too complicated to calc since he didn't really lift the whole weight above his head or something.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Hmmn. It might still be an outlier though cuz arrows are significantly faster than discus throws. Can reach up to 100 m/s.
Click to expand...
AFAIK those would be compound longbows, but guessing as Hawkeye's arrows can pierce walls, I'd say the speed is valid. But I'd say 68.58 m/s is also good.

But ye, still outlier, 8-B I reckon, even with the whole "FinalSpeed= (MassPersonHittingYou * Initial Speed) : (MassPersonHittingYou + Your Mass) then putting the Final speed and your mass into the old KE formula for durability" thing.
 
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Iron Man should scale to his own LS feats imo. He got, albeit with his non-combatant suit, overpowered by Bucky's organic arm in a grapple, and there's little evidence to suggest his combatant armours would necessarily scale to Captain America as they never fought aside of Civil War.

For AP of his older armours we might want to have a crack at some feats in his own trilogy.

Captain America 8-C might be a little iffy now lacking feats to support it but it's the only consistent thing to do if we have the Spider-Men at that, who have consistent feats in that range. He doesn't show great struggle for his 9-A feats so it doesn't contradict it I guess. For the lower tier anti-feats, to be honest my headcanon would just be that the serum makes him stronger over time, because let's be honest his power level pretty much got semi-retconned in the Russo era so we should just dismiss all his pathetic shit in the First Avenger and Avengers.

If we remove AoS scaling, Ronan would sadly just be "at least 8-C" for stomping the Guardians.

anyway going to bed now
 
Huh. So something I did notice is that the calc does use the wrong gun type. The gun Hawkeye had is a Beretta Cheetah, which does not fire 9mm bullets. So he either shot .380 or .32 ACP rounds, both of which are slower projectiles than the 9mm.
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
For the lower tier anti-feats, to be honest my headcanon would just be that the serum makes him stronger over time
Click to expand...
Can't work. Cap in Avengers defeated Cap in Endgame, despite the latter being much more experienced. He ages, just slower (even then it might not be a whole lot slower since he's still really old after Peggy died and he was on that bench).
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
He doesn't show great struggle for his 9-A feats so it doesn't contradict it I guess.
Click to expand...
I mean, in my view its either they scale to Spider-Man, which I think is just inconsistent, or we scale them to their 9-A feats and giver them a likely higher designation.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Huh. So something I did notice is that the calc does use the wrong gun type. The gun Hawkeye had is a Beretta Cheetah, which does not fire 9mm bullets. So he either shot .380 or .32 ACP rounds, both of which are slower projectiles than the 9mm.
Click to expand...
Why even use bullets when we clearly see an arrow there LOL, still an outlier tho

Qawsedf234 said:
Can't work. Cap in Avengers defeated Cap in Endgame, despite the latter being much more experienced. He ages, just slower (even then it might not be a whole lot slower since he's still really old after Peggy died and he was on that bench).
Click to expand...
One could argue that Endgame Cap was holding back.
 
Cap in Endgame probably haven't fought in years, was holding back and 2012 Cap though he was Loki tbf. But yeah not proposing that to be keys on his profile or something, the point was more so how is power level got buffed up by the Russos in terms of feats. Heck he doesn't even use guns anymore.

I've also always got the impression from watching that Iron Man's weapons are superior to his punches by quite a bit, e.g. easily harming Loki, one-shotting Ultron and vaporizing Bucky's arm. But then he sometimes trades blasts with opponents so it's a bit inconsistent I guess.
 
Actually, wait.

Since we know it's an arrow... and Quicksilver saw that shit in slow mo...

Final Speed: (Mass of the person hitting you * initial speed) : (Mass of the person hitting you + mass of the person getting hit)

Then you dump the mass of the person getting hit and the final speed into good old KE to get the actual energy the person withstood.

Mass of the person hitting you? Forearm mass of Aaron. 2.52% for forearm+hand. 70*0.0252= 1.764 kg.

Cap is 240 lbs or 108.862 kg

(1.764 * 557101) / (108.862+1.764)= 8883.32005134 m/s, this is the speed Cap got slammed into the floor at.

(The above speed is 68.58 m/s recurve bow speed assumption)

KE time.

0.5 * 108.862 * 8883.32005134^2= 4.29533392195e+9 J or 1.026609445972753 tons of TNT (Building level).

Weird. Really weird.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
What do you get when you don't assume Usain Bolt levels of running speed.

EDIT: Oh its about a discuss throw and not Quicksilver running.
Click to expand...
Well it's more or less like a punch, boxer-level punches at peak can hit roughly 15 m/s (11.176 m/s on average for pro boxers) and Quicksilver's hand was still a blur in slow-mo so I guess the 12.51 m/s apparent speed is a low-ball for the arm.

Since the slow-mo formula is like: (True speed / Object's apparent speed) * Person's apparent speed (Person here is the dude seeing shit in slow mo)
 
KLOL506 said:
Well it's more or less like a punch, boxer-level punches can hit 15 m/s and Quicksilver's hand was still a blur in slow-mo so I guess the 12.51 m/s apparent speed is a low-ball for the arm.
Click to expand...
I dunno. Because using something like normal or athletic running speed would only get you to 9-A.
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
Pretty sure Endgame cap was not only rusty since he did not fight for over 5 years
Click to expand...
Do you have anything to support such a claim?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I dunno. Because using something like normal or athletic running speed would only get you to 9-A.
Click to expand...
We're talking punching speed here, running speed wouldn't apply in anyway here, Quicksilver's arm was a blur here, so using normal or athletic running speed for the arm would be grossly inaccurate, considering even those research scientists can punch faster, and even using their punching speed in this case is a stretch due to the aforementioned blur on Pietro's hand. So at the lowest we'd assume 15 miles per hour punching speed. 6.7056 m/s, a mid-end of 25 mph or 11.176 m/s or Ricky Hatton's 32 mph or 14.3053 m/s. World record is 45 mph or 20.1168 m/s BTW.

Slow mo formula: (True object speed/Object's apparent speed) * Person's apparent speed (Or in this case, arm's apparent speed)

(68.58/0.00154)*6.7056= 298616.914286 m/s

(1.764 * 298616.914286) / (108.862+1.764)= 4761.63141396 m/s is what Cap is getting punted at

0.5 * 108.862 * 4761.63141396^2= 1.23412134164e+9 J or 0.2949620797418738 tons of TNT (Building level)
 
Qawsedf234 said:
While true, from what I understood that's a jab. Not the cross/haymaker than Quicksilver threw.

But as long as it doesn't break our KE stuff I guess its supporting evidence for a rating.
Click to expand...
Well, we're not using the world record value anyway, so either the 25 mph end or the 32 mph end should do well due to Quicksilver's hand still being a blur in slow-mo.
 
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I said this in the NWH discussion thread and I'll say here for any feats if any at all are calc'd to determine the tiering for some characters here please remember to link them to the verse page for ease of access to anyone looking for then if they're accepted.

This will just help solidify scaling and clear stuff up for anyone who maybe hasn't seen the CRT but wants to know why characters are scaled the way they are ofc
 
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