MCU: 2-A Upgrades

[RoTt35]

Dormammu
Wong stated that Dormammu is on a quest to invade every universe and bring all worlds into his Dark Dimension, Ancient One stated that the universe is only one of an infinite number and that there are worlds without end. And a guidebook stated that Dormammu is constantly plotting to conquer all of the infinite realities and dimensions within the multiverse into his Dark Dimension.

Both feats are 2-A therefore it is impossible that Dormammu could do it by absorbing a single universe by universe, so both him and the Dark Dimension can potentially be that tier, and the dialogues imply an overtime feat. Therefore his AP justification should be changed to this:

Low Multiverse level (Has conquered and absorbed many worlds and dimensions into his Dark Dimension, which is another universe, and was going to merge Earth's dimension/reality with it), Multiverse level+ overtime (Constantly plots to conquer all of the infinite universes, realities and dimensions within the multiverse into his Dark Dimension)

The Watcher
Doctor Strange Supreme stated that the Watcher is able to fix the collapse of a timeline. In this CRT the timelines were accepted at 2-A, which is explained in this cosmology blog.

Infinity Ultron
WoG stated that Ultron was legitimately punching across multiverses, turning them into one "messy universe soup". The only in-universe explanation for that statement is that by multiverses it refers to the group of universes that each timeline contains, which matches with the actual definition of multiverse.

The Watcher, who has seen everything that has ever happened, ever will happen and ever could happen, stated that he cannot imagine the horrors that might follow if Ultron is unleashed upon the multiverse, and that the Guardians of the Multiverse are his last hope to save all the universes within the multiverse, which should include every possible Dark Dimension, making Ultron a bigger threat than Alioth and Dormammu at his fullness.

Note: this is how the profiles would be

Agree: 13 (@Qawsedf234, @Emirp sumitpo, @DarkDragonMedeus, @RoTt35, @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer, @The_one_you_least_expect, @Dalesean027, @Eseseso, @Excel616, @Lonkitt, @ThanatosX, @DarlingAurora, @NHTkenshin2)

Neutral:

Disagree: 1 (@ShadowWhoWalks)

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Agreed

 

[Aachintya31]

I suppose you should add infinity stones which are 3A at full power ,could be 2-A now.

 

[RoTt35]

I suppose you should add infinity stones which are 3A at full power ,could be 2-A now.

They are Low 2-C since they scale from Infinity Ultron, so they would be upgraded to 2-A if the CRT is accepted

 

[Aachintya31]

They are Low 2-C, so they would be upgraded to 2-A since they scale from Infinity Ultron if the CRT is accepted

Thanos is Atleast 3-A. I guess it should change.

 

[RoTt35]

Thanos is Atleast 3-A. I guess it should change.

His profile has this note:

Despite the Infinity Gauntlet being Low 2-C for using the combined power of all six of the Infinity Stones, it is unknown if Thanos would have been able to affect space and time with his snap. The least he would have been able to do, as he himself said, was shred the universe down to its last atom, and for this reason he scales to this feat.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Both feats are 2-A therefore it is impossible that Dormammu could do it by absorbing a single universe by universe, so both him and the Dark Dimension can potentially be that tier, and the dialogues imply an overtime feat. Therefore his AP justification should be changed to this:

This never happens, it's just an explanation of Dormammu's goals. He wouldn't get a 2-A rating, though we would need to expand his absorption/reality warping justifications.

The Watcher, who has seen everything that has ever happened, ever will happen and ever could happen, stated that he cannot imagine the horrors that might follow if Ultron is unleashed upon the multiverse, and that the Guardians of the Multiverse are his last hope to save all the universes within the multiverse, which should include every possible Dark Dimension, making Ultron a bigger threat than Alioth and Dormammu at his fullness.

Scaling is a bit wordy, but ultimately it makes sense.

Though if that doesn't work then they'd just be "Possibly 2-A" or something.

 

[Aachintya31]

His profile has this note:

That note is probably before what if and should be removed but anyways lets leave it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That note is probably before what if

That note was after What If, as I'm the one who added it to Thanos once the IG got more feats.

 

[Aachintya31]

That note was after What If, as I'm the one who added it to Thanos once the IG got more feats.

Ok...

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

I agree but shouldn’t we get the 2-a cosmology accepted first then do this?

 

[RoTt35]

I agree but shouldn’t we get the 2-a cosmology accepted first then do this?

It was accepted by Qawsedf here

 

[RoTt35]

This never happens, it's just an explanation of Dormammu's goals.

The sorcerers have the Time Stone, so it is possible that in some possible future they saw Dormammu absorbing everything, otherwise they wouldn't know what his goals are

Edit: and everything about Dormammu is written in the Book of Cagliostro, which also explains how to use the Eye of Agamotto

 

[Qawsedf234]

The sorcerers have the Time Stone, so it is possible that in some possible future they saw Dormammu absorbing everything, otherwise they wouldn't know what his goals are

Well you can know someone's goals without them ever competing those goals. Dormammu never became 2-A and the 2-A thing itself is over an unknown length of time.

His absorption and stuff should be changed to note this I guess, but I'm not seeing his AP getting upgraded.

 

[Aachintya31]

Regarding thanos using infinity stones being 3-A should be upgraded to 2-A for being able to significantly affect a 2-A construct (shredding it to atoms) despite not being shown the ability to affect space-time.

 

[RoTt35]

Well you can know someone's goals without them ever competing those goals. Dormammu never became 2-A and the 2-A thing itself is over an unknown length of time.

His absorption and stuff should be changed to note this I guess, but I'm not seeing his AP getting upgraded.

Fair, do we need more input from staff to evaluate the other stuff?

 

[RoTt35]

Regarding thanos using infinity stones being 3-A should be upgraded to 2-A for being able to significantly affect a 2-A construct (shredding it to atoms) despite not being shown the ability to affect space-time.

The timelines are 2-A, not a single universe

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Dormammu

That Dormammu is plotting to do so doesn't mean that he is capable of doing so. Could be a futile attempt to sate his insatiable hunger and greed, so he'll keep on constantly absorbing dimensions one by one endlessly.

Can only support a Possibly 2-A overtime for Dormammu.

The Watcher

The Water actually casts doubt on Dr. Strange's statement:

Strange You... You can stop this. Please, fix this. Watcher The same way you fixed Christine? Strange What? I was wrong. I... Watcher You were warned. Strange I know. But the world! The world shouldn't pay for my arrogance. I read about you. Sensed your presence. You're a god. You can undo this. Watcher I'm not a god. And neither are you. Strange Then punish me. Not the world, not Christine. Water Honestly, if I could fix this, if I could punish you instead, I would. But I can't interfere. You, more than anyone else, should understand that meddling with time and events only leads to more destruction.

The Watcher says 'the same way you fixed Christine?' when asked for help, and says that he honestly has no way to save the universe, implying that he has no method to undo this except by causing a time paradox which will ultimately result in destruction and collapse.
So it is not implied that he can use raw power to undo the collapse of the timeline.

Infinity Ultron

But was he just punching through the material universe (or a handful of dimensions within each universe), or was he punching all infinite dimensions in a universe at the same time?
He can "punch across the multiverses" while punching one universe at a time by the way.

Though I agree that Infinity Ultron has the potential to acquire more power and become 2-A if he runs amok. But during What If he was just exterminating life in universes one at a time.

The sorcerers have the Time Stone, so it is possible that in some possible future they saw Dormammu absorbing everything, otherwise they wouldn't know what his goals are

Dormammu have cultists worshipping him and hoping he grants humanity eternal life within the Dark Dimension, and there is a book containing a ritual to summon Dormammu. They are in position to know Dormammu's goals without the Time Stone.

 

[Dalesean027]

Samw as Qawsedf234 I agree to the Watcher and Infinity Ultron stuff

 

[NHTkenshin2]

What the **** did i miss

 

[Dalesean027]

The Watcher says 'the same way you fixed Christine?' when asked for help, and says that he honestly has no way to save the universe, implying that he has no method to undo this except by causing a time paradox which will ultimately result in destruction and collapse.
So it is not implied that he can use raw power to undo the collapse of the timeline.

Nah he quite literally gives his reason at the end saying he can't interfere that's the only thing stopping himis his oath

But was he just punching through the material universe (or a handful of dimensions within each universe), or was he punching all infinite dimensions in a universe at the same time?
He can "punch across the multiverses" while punching one universe at a time by the way.

Though I agree that Infinity Ultron has the potential to acquire more power and become 2-A if he runs amok. But during What If he was just exterminating life in universes one at a time.

He did more than that it's in his justification and has WoG statements saying otherwise and he scales above the Watcher so no you're wrong, you'd need to provide actual evidence that says he's doing otherwise and contradicts WoG

 

[RoTt35]

Dormammu have cultists worshipping him and hoping he grants humanity eternal life within the Dark Dimension, and there is a book containing a ritual to summon Dormammu. They are in position to know Dormammu's goals without the Time Stone.

Yes, and all of that is written in the Book of Cagliostro, which also explains how to use the Eye of Agamotto, and is the book that his cultists use

 

[RoTt35]

But was he just punching through the material universe (or a handful of dimensions within each universe), or was he punching all infinite dimensions in a universe at the same time?
He can "punch across the multiverses" while punching one universe at a time by the way.

A multiverse is a group of universes, the only in-universe structure that matches with that definition is the group of universes that each timeline contains, since it cannot refer to the multiverse as a whole because there is only one. And I think you are confusing what a universe and a timeline are in-universe

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Nah he quite literally gives his reason at the end saying he can't interfere that's the only thing stopping himis his oath

If he didn't have his oath, can he interfere without causing destruction in the same way Dr. Strange did?

He did more than that it's in his justification and has WoG statements saying otherwise and he scales above the Watcher so no you're wrong

For convenience and clarity, can you list what else he did? It seems I already talked about the main evidence and how it is not explicit.

Yes, and all of that is written in the Book of Cagliostro, which also explains how to use the Eye of Agamotto, and is the book that his cultists use

The cultists stole pages from the book with the explicit purpose of summoning Dormammu so they knew about Dormammu before hand, and the Ancient One states that Dormammu decieves them; in other words Dormammu already communicated with people to recruit followers with a narrative that contradicts official teachings:

The Ancient One Dormammu deceives you. You have no idea of what he truly is. His eternal life is not paradise, but torment.

A multiverse is a group of universes, the only in-universe structure that matches with that definition is the group of universes that each timeline contains, since it cannot refer to the multiverse as a whole because there is only one. And I think you are confusing what a universe and a timeline are in-universe

Yeah. You can punch across a group of universes, and still do it one universe at a time. I think you misinterpreted the scene as multiple timelines are involved.

In the punching scene, Ultron and the Watcher travel to a different timeline (you see a different civilization on Earth) with each punch:

This doesn't mean that Ultron was punching an infinite number of universes/dimensions at the same time.

 

[Dalesean027]

For convenience and clarity, can you list what else he did? It seems I already talked about the main evidence and how it is not explicit.

And what you said isn't sufficient, I don't think you're understanding that

Yeah. You can punch across a group of universes, and still do it one universe at a time. I think you misinterpreted the scene as multiple timelines are involved.

In the punching scene, Ultron and the Watcher travel to a different timeline (you see a different civilization on Earth) with each punch:

This is a theory that's disproven by WoG, they literally say he's turning them into "messy soup" as he punches through the universe's which would qualify for significantly affecting a universal structure 2-C bare minimum but since he was doing this to timelines then its 2-A since a timeline

Actually read the cosmology blog and CRT before you comment because you seem to confused on MCU cosmology

 

[Qawsedf234]

This doesn't mean that Ultron was punching an infinite number of universes/dimensions at the same time

The 2A for Ultron is more scaling to Alioth than it is anything he did on scren.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

This is a theory that's disproven by WoG, they literally say he's turning them into "messy soup" as he punches through the universe's which would qualify for significantly affecting a universal structure 2-C bare minimum but since he was doing this to timelines then its 2-A since a timeline

There high-end 2-A interpretation that he is merging a finite number of timelines (even though we see no clear indication of 'merging), but don't see why we shouldn't take the 2-C one; a group of messed up universes could be considered a messy universe soup.

The 2A for Ultron is more scaling to Alioth than it is anything he did on scren.

I did agree that Ultron has the potential to rival Alioth if he is allowed to run amok. But he can do so by acquiring even more power at a later point.
The feats he did in What If and what he is confirmed to already be able to do doesn't appear to justify 2-A.

 

[Eseseso]

2-A VULTRON AT LAST, WOO!!!

Agree with OP.

 

[RoTt35]

The cultists stole pages from the book with the explicit purpose of summoning Dormammu so they knew about Dormammu before hand, and the Ancient One states that Dormammu decieves them; in other words Dormammu already communicated with people to recruit followers with a narrative that contradicts official teachings:

As I said before, everything about Dormammu along with the explanation of how to use the Eye of Agamotto is written in the Book of Cagliostro

There high-end 2-A interpretation that he is merging a finite number of timelines (even though we see no clear indication of 'merging), but don't see why we shouldn't take the 2-C one; a group of messed up universes could be considered a messy universe soup.

Again, the statement says that Ultron is punching across multiverses and turning them into one messy universe soup, the only thing that can refer to is the infinite amount of universes each timeline contains

I did agree that Ultron has the potential to rival Alioth if he is allowed to run amok. But he can do so by acquiring even more power at a later point.

Proof? Since you are literally assuming that Ultron can be 2-A overtime or with some sort of AD without any backing

The feats he did in What If and what he is confirmed to already be able to do doesn't appear to justify 2-A.

Why? In What If...? we saw Ultron punching across timelines, WoG states that he was punching across multiverses (referring to the infinite universes that each timeline contains) and turning them into one messy universe soup, and the Watcher, who has seen everything, states that he cannot imagine the horrors that might follow if Ultron is unleashed upon the multiverse, and that the Guardians of the Multiverse are his last hope to save all the universes within the multiverse.

If Ultron was only Low 2-C he can't be a threat to all the universes within the multiverse, not only because there are endless timelines containing infinite universes, but also because each decision can branch out into infinite realities. Could you explain how someone who is only Low 2-C is a threat to infinite*infinite ad infinitum universes? On the other hand, if Ultron can directly destroy the timeline, aka 2-A, the statement would make sense since there would be no ramifications of universes/realities

 

[Dalesean027]

If he didn't have his oath, can he interfere without causing destruction in the same way Dr. Strange did?

I'd see no reason why he couldn't when the only real reason he gives for not being able to is his oath

I did agree that Ultron has the potential to rival Alioth if he is allowed to run amok. But he can do so by acquiring even more power at a later point.
The feats he did in What If and what he is confirmed to already be able to do doesn't appear to justify 2-A

There's is no implication that this would be due to him gaining power overtime that in particular is headcanon as there's no statments or WoG that suggest this, "overtime he'd get stronger" argument. MCU wise if we even considered that ultron significantly affected or destroy even 1 timeline in the MCU then that'd be 2-A since even 1 timeline is a 2-A structure

 

[Eseseso]

The Uatu statement on Vultron's threat and his scaling to a timeline (which in the MCU is 2-A even on its own) are enough to make me accept the OP. And the fact that Dormammu scaling to 2-A makes sense.

 

[RoTt35]

Ultron is above everything the Watcher has seen, which includes Alioth (since he saw everything that has ever happened) and Dormammu fulfilling his goal of absorbing everything (since he has seen everything that could happen)

 

[Lonkitt]

And what you said isn't sufficient, I don't think you're understanding that
This is a theory that's disproven by WoG, they literally say he's turning them into "messy soup" as he punches through the universe's which would qualify for significantly affecting a universal structure 2-C bare minimum but since he was doing this to timelines then its 2-A since a timeline

Its incredible how many people just....ignore this confirmed part of the episode

 

[Dalesean027]

Its incredible how many people just....ignore this confirmed part of the episode

Truly it is, we have far too many threads with people just ignoring this fact and any cosmology or logic just trying to downgrade just because

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

As I said before, everything about Dormammu along with the explanation of how to use the Eye of Agamotto is written in the Book of Cagliostro

And this counters my point that Dormmammu had communicated with people in order to give them promises, how?

Again, the statement says that Ultron is punching across multiverses and turning them into one messy universe soup, the only thing that can refer to is the infinite amount of universes each timeline contains

Incorrect. We only see Ultron affecting the material universe within a finite number of timelines, and there is no indication he affected an infinite amount of universes.
I already provided a coherent alternative, which disproves your statement that it can't refer to anything else.

Proof? Since you are literally assuming that Ultron can be 2-A overtime or with some sort of AD without any backing

I am simply not assuming that Ultron is 2-A because he lacks feats on this level. A statement that he is a future threat to the entire multiverse just confirms that he is a potential 2-A threat, not that he is currently 2-A.

Watcher If a hunger like that were to be unleashed upon the multiverse... Ultron I will find you. Watcher Even I cannot imagine the horrors that might follow.

Why? In What If...? we saw Ultron punching across timelines, WoG states that he was punching across multiverses (referring to the infinite universes that each timeline contains) and turning them into one messy universe soup, and the Watcher, who has seen everything, states that he cannot imagine the horrors that might follow if Ultron is unleashed upon the multiverse, and that the Guardians of the Multiverse are his last hope to save all the universes within the multiverse.

If Ultron was only Low 2-C he can't be a threat to all the universes within the multiverse, not only because there are endless timelines containing infinite universes, but also because each decision can branch out into infinite realities. Could you explain how someone who is only Low 2-C is a threat to infinite*infinite ad infinitum universes? On the other hand, if Ultron can directly destroy the timeline, aka 2-A, the statement would make sense since there would be no ramifications of universes/realities

Punching across timelines is not by itself 2-A.
You previously defined multiverses as a group of universes. Why the switch in the terminology to something more specific? We have no evidence Ultron was punching the infinite dimensions in each timeline.
The Watcher's statement doesn't prove that the current Infinity Ultron is 2-A; only that he might cause 2-A destruction in the future.

Infinity Ultron has access to the Watcher's Nexus of All Realities. Through it, Ultron can find methods to destroy life in the multiverse via. chain reaction, or find ways to power himself; heck he can do so by freeing Alioth while still remaining 2-C.

I'd see no reason why he couldn't when the only real reason he gives for not being able to is his oath

He specifically says the opposite:

You, more than anyone else, should understand that meddling with time and events only leads to more destruction.

There's is no implication that this would be due to him gaining power overtime that in particular is headcanon as there's no statments or WoG that suggest this, "overtime he'd get stronger" argument. MCU wise if we even considered that ultron significantly affected or destroy even 1 timeline in the MCU then that'd be 2-A since even 1 timeline is a 2-A structure

That is only one valid possibility. Other valid possibilities is that he does this via. proxy while remaining 2-C since he has access to the Nexus of All Realities.

Its incredible how many people just....ignore this confirmed part of the episode

I agree that the feat is 2-C at minimum. There is a problem with proving the 'infinite number of universes' part though.

 

[RoTt35]

Incorrect. We only see Ultron affecting the material universe within a finite number of timelines, and there is no indication he affected an infinite amount of universes.

The only one wrong here is you, that feat is accepted at Low 2-C, so Ultron was affecting the space-time continuum, and since now the timelines are 2-A the feat would be that tier

I am simply not assuming that Ultron is 2-A because he lacks feats on this level.

According only to you, Ultron has statements of affecting 2-A structures and being above 2-A characters

Punching across timelines is not by itself 2-A.

I don't know if you knew but the timelines in the MCU are 2-A, I recommend check the previous CRT and the cosmology blog, otherwise we are wasting time

You previously defined multiverses as a group of universes. Why the switch in the terminology to something more specific? We have no evidence Ultron was punching the infinite dimensions in each timeline.

Multiverse = Group of universes, Timeline = infinite universes, aka a group of universes, I don't even know why you are talking about dimensions

Infinity Ultron has access to the Watcher's Nexus of All Realities. Through it, Ultron can find methods to destroy life in the multiverse via. chain reaction, or find ways to power himself; heck he can do so by freeing Alioth while still remaining 2-C.

Wrong headcanon, the Watcher stated that before Ultron broke into the Nexus of All Realities

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The only one wrong here is you, that feat is accepted at Low 2-C, so Ultron was affecting the space-time continuum, and since now the timelines are 2-A the feat would be that tier

Affecting the space-time continuum in the material universe doesn't mean affecting the entire timeline with its infinite dimensions with separate space-time continuums.

According only to you, Ultron has statements of affecting 2-A structures and being above 2-A characters

Begging the question.

I don't know if you knew but the timelines in the MCU are 2-A, I recommend check the previous CRT and the cosmology blog, otherwise we are wasting time

Yes, I am perfectly aware, and I even participated in the previous thread.

Multiverse = Group of universes, Timeline = infinite universes, aka a group of universes, I don't even know why you are talking about dimensions

To avoid ambiguity. In the first Dr. Strange movie, every dimension in a timeline was called a universe. However now the MCU have universes with separate timelines.

Wrong headcanon, the Watcher stated that before Ultron broke into the Nexus of All Realities

The Watcher stated that after Ultron saw into the Nexus of All Realities, and started breaking in directly after.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree with the Upgrades

 

[RoTt35]

Affecting the space-time continuum in the material universe doesn't mean affecting the entire timeline with its infinite dimensions with separate space-time continuums.

And that's where the WoG statement about Ultron punching across multiverses and turning them into one messy universe soup comes in, and nobody is talking about dimensions

To avoid ambiguity. In the first Dr. Strange movie, every dimension in a timeline was called a universe. However now the MCU have universes with separate timelines.

This tells me that you didn't understand how the cosmology works since you are confusing universes, dimensions and timelines. We're wasting time with this

The Watcher stated that after Ultron saw into the Nexus of All Realities, and started breaking in directly after.

The Watcher stated that when Infinity Ultron was able to see him, something Doctor Strange Supreme had already done. Ultron breaks into the Nexus of All Realities after the statement and the Watcher was still confused

 

[Lonkitt]

Also I agree with the upgrades