Master vs Trainer, but by themselves (Ritsuka vs Ash 7-2-0)

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wait would it not be incon then? Like they don't incap ash, they just tell him to stop fighting and that's that. Neither fights and they ain't gonna convince ash to kill himself or sth.

Now that you mention it I'mma go back and find some evidence, i might be able to get Ash some social influencing of his own based on him taming many agressive sentient pokemon

Either way, his is nowhere near as effective as their's are since the can talk down some really evil people like full blown Psychopaths that just want to kill everybody, People with God Complexes that won't hesitate to kill you for the most minor of things, etc.

 

[Arceus0x]

Either way, his is nowhere near as effective as their's are since the can talk down some really evil people like full blown Psychopaths that just want to kill everybody, People with God Complexes that won't hesitate to kill you for the most minor of things, etc.

I stilll don't get how it is a wincon if neither dies and both stop fighting.
Like ok he talks em down, then what? They go down and drink tea or sth? Cause if he tries to attack Ash after that then not only will it fail but ash will kick his ass

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I stilll don't get how it is a wincon if neither dies and both stop fighting.
Like ok he talks em down, then what? They go down and drink tea or sth? Cause if he tries to attack Ash after that then not only will it fail but ash will kick his ass

It's called convincing your opponent to give up.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I stilll don't get how it is a wincon if neither dies and both stop fighting.
Like ok he talks em down, then what? They go down and drink tea or sth? Cause if he tries to attack Ash after that then not only will it fail but ash will kick his ass

Ritsuka is vastly more skilled then Ash(they kept up with Roman Soldiers). Also ask Frisk and Steven Universe about winning via social influencing

 

[Arceus0x]

Ritsuka is vastly more skilled then Ash(they kept up with Roman Soldiers). Also ask Frisk and Steven Universe about winning via social influencing

Ah yeah, skills will help against someone with, newly added, high 7-A durability

 

[Arceus0x]

It's called convincing your opponent to give up.

Would he even begin with social influencing? It would take ash a moment to jump up to him and try to punch him.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ah yeah, skills will help against someone with, newly added, high 7-A durability

Ritsuka was never going to harm Ash. But Ash will never land a hit on Ritsuka due to the skill disparity

 

[DaReaperMan]

Would he even begin with social influencing? It would take ash a moment to jump up to him and try to punch him.

Uh yeah. Ritsuka only really fights to defend themselves. They'd begin by trying to talk Ash out of fighting them

 

[Arceus0x]

Uh yeah. Ritsuka only really fights to defend themselves. They'd begin by trying to talk Ash out of fighting them

He ain't gonna convince him with 1 sentence mate, meanwhile if ash manages to land one shot it is pretty much over

 

[DaReaperMan]

He ain't gonna convince him with 1 sentence mate, meanwhile if ash manages to land one shot it is pretty much over

landing a hit on someone capable of fighting with people who would skill-stomp Ash

No.

 

[Arceus0x]

No.

Prove it then
Simple as that, show me the skills you are talking about and a scene with hand to hand combat.
I am going by the wiki information and based on that info he is good at social influencing and strategy, that is all. Nothing about pure hand to hand combat.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also both would see the other as statues due to their reactions being so much higher then their normal speed

Prove it then
Simple as that, show me the skills you are talking about and a scene with hand to hand combat.
I am going by the wiki information and based on that info he is good at social influencing and strategy, that is all. Nothing about pure hand to hand combat.

Ritsuka is vastly more skilled then Ash(they kept up with Roman Soldiers). Also ask Frisk and Steven Universe about winning via social influencing

Second or Third Singularity.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Turns out, you don't need Martial Arts or weapon mastery to be skilled.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also both would see the other as statues due to their reactions being so much higher then their normal speed


Second or Third Singularity.

You still haven't shown me the skills and i don't care about social influence when the distance is 10 meters and it takes one jump and a hit to take down the latter.
All i need is a video or scan of them doing what you say they do, not to mention Roman soldiers means nothing, keeping up with them doesn't automatically mean you can evade every hit a person tries to land on you while having a monologue that fully convinces them to stop fighting when Ash wants Ritsuka dead by SBA.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You still haven't shown me the skills and i don't care about social influence when the distance is 10 meters and it takes one jump and a hit to take down the latter.
All i need is a video or scan of them doing what you say they do, not to mention Roman soldiers means nothing, keeping up with them doesn't automatically mean you can evade every hit a person tries to land on you while having a monologue that fully convinces them to stop fighting when Ash wants Ritsuka dead by SBA.

It's on their profile. Look closer.

 

[Arceus0x]

It's on their profile. Look closer.

"The majority of Mystic Codes they have access to are designed to support Servants rather than engage in direct combat, leaving them vulnerable without the protection of their Servants."
Mmmmmm gee i wonder why that's the only thing related to that on their profile besides them being a good tactician.

Anyway back to square 1: please give scans

 

[DaReaperMan]

"The majority of Mystic Codes they have access to are designed to support Servants rather than engage in direct combat, leaving them vulnerable without the protection of their Servants."
Mmmmmm gee i wonder why that's the only thing related to that on their profile besides them being a good tactician.

Anyway back to square 1: please give scans

This ain't rocket science, it's the second scan in the AP section.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I wouldn't be arguing this if the scan didn't exist. I'd say Mash got em all if it didn't.

 

[Arceus0x]

This ain't rocket science, it's the second scan in the AP section.

It shows him kicking a soldier. Not only is that purely AP it still doesn't justify Ritsuka running circles around Ash whilst convincing him to give up.

If you can prove it with a video that he can do what you suggest, i will concede. If you wanna call Mash then call Mash, i am only trying to make sense of this.

 

[Logan87654321]

Gudako's social influencing doesn't work nearly as fast as some people in this thread make it out to be. Half the time they meet a new servant it's like "talking didn't work, so it looks like we'll have to convince them with our fists!" before telling one of their servants to go fight them. Ex: I just played two of the Las Vegas nodes, and Gudako tries reason to two of their servants (Qin Shi Huang in one and Okada Izo/Hyde in the other) before realizing it was futile and siccing Mash/Kotarou on them to calm them down. Add to that the fact that for big bads in the main story it takes entire singularities worth of time to convince them to join you. Is it impressive that Ritsuka's able to recruit Jeanne Alter in a comparatively short period of time to how long they were enemies? Obviously, but we're still talking a matter of multiple encounters over the span of a few days when. Sure, the characters here aren't bloodlusted but Ritsuka also isn't some master manipulator that can **** with Ash's mind so much that they get the win off that.

I'm going to have to vote Ash.

 

[Arceus0x]

I believe that imma just gonna send this over to the deletion thread in a bit

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

In response of the skill of Ritsuka, aside from the many things he have survived, the many battles with things that one shot him, he also receive training from various servants, like for example ninjutsu from Kotaro, and he also receive training from the masters servants, like Scathach, Kiichi Hogen, Leonidas, and so.

Gudako's social influencing doesn't work nearly as fast as some people in this thread make it out to be. Half the time they meet a new servant it's like "talking didn't work, so it looks like we'll have to convince them with our fists!" before telling one of their servants to go fight them. Ex: I just played two of the Las Vegas nodes, and Gudako tries reason to two of their servants (Qin Shi Huang in one and Okada Izo/Hyde in the other) before realizing it was futile and siccing Mash/Kotarou on them to calm them down. Add to that the fact that for big bads in the main story it takes entire singularities worth of time to convince them to join you. Is it impressive that Ritsuka's able to recruit Jeanne Alter in a comparatively short period of time to how long they were enemies? Obviously, but we're still talking a matter of multiple encounters over the span of a few days when. Sure, the characters here aren't bloodlusted but Ritsuka also isn't some master manipulator that can **** with Ash's mind so much that they get the win off that.

I'm going to have to vote Ash.

I get your point, but you know that Qi Shi Huang is a tyrant and Okada and Hyde are two bloodlusted guys? Hyde is literally a psychotic who just want kill and chaos, so the mention that Ritsuka don't pacify them instantaneously isn't quite importart considering that Ash is in character and he don't have a personality like that. He isn't a master manipulator, it's just a guy with absurd level of charm that befried without problem in a short amount of time with many beings, especially good beings. Also, this ended long ago so there is no point in vote.

I believe that imma just gonna send this over to the deletion thread in a bit

If you want feel free to do so.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Ash have higher AP and durability which is his major advantage because he can literally overpowered Ritsuka with his sheer strength alone. I don't know the calc for Ritsuka but a navel gun in middle of 17th century can deal this much of damage, although that won't cover his disadvantage in physical stats. However, that is all Ash have so i'll move to Ritsuka next.

It's undoubtedly that Ritsuka is far more skilled than Ash is, he have been trained by legendary figures and so on. Honestly, why don't he have Martial Arts or something similar in his profile? Also his stamina should be upgrade as well given that he've went through some extreme training under Scathach, Leonidas but its a different matter for now.

Considering the situation this is basically skills vs AP at this point, all Ash can do is trying to punch Ritsuka to death or choke him into submission. Let take a note here, we cannot determined how skilled Ritsuka is as a fighter, mainly because he haven't been an direct combat for most of the time. However we can't disregard the training he've received, Ritsuka would know how to dodge, to analyse situations and when or where to strike at his opponent. It may seem like i'm overestimate him but it's true, in martial arts, military or any kind of combat training they are basic knowledge that everyone must known and learnt. While Ash feat may have his fair share of knowledge in tactical combat and being an athlete himself, Ritsuka being throughly trained would give him the edge in this field.

Ritsuka would spend a few seconds analysing his opponent and after a few punch and kick, Ritsuka then realized that Ash is physically stronger than him so he took few steps then go into defensive position. He know that his normal attack won't work so he'll target his vital points instead, repeatedly poking his eyes will lead to wound being fester and worsen over time.

As for Ritsuka's Social Influencing, everybody already explain it so i won't tap into it much. I do think that it is possible for Ritsuka to convince Ash to surrender and it doesn't take a genius to accomplish it, a person who having a way with words can easily do that. We've seen Ritsuka dealing with psychopath and maniac on daily basic so Ash shouldn't be much difficult.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Implying either can actually hit the other considering their reactions are far, far, far, far, far, far better then their other speed.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Speed are equal.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Speed are equal.

Yes, now how many times is Ash and Ritsuka's reactions then their normal speed?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Why do you ask, when speed is equal so are their reaction and base speed.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why do you ask, when speed is equal so are their reaction and base speed.

It actually isn't, I made this misconception myself.

Basically, Ash has Relativistic+ reactions compared to his Superhuman travel and combat speed. He would still keep how ever many times that rel+ reaction speed is compared to his other speeds, same goes for Ritsuka.

It makes sense when you think about it, someone's reactions being higher then their other speeds should be considered in speed equal, as that is how the character is in their verse.

 

[DaReaperMan]

To explain it a bit more, if in speed equal when both characters don't have reactions thousands of times higher then their other speeds, one character throws a rock at walking speed to them, it would appear walking speed to their opponent as well.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

That's not how speed equal work dude. Everything from attacks, reactions, perception, etc are equalized. Doesn't matter if a character can dodge Rel+ attacks, when speed equal played in everything are the same.

Read this for more information.

 

[DaReaperMan]

"Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier."

Sounds like I'm right eh?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Now then, let me dissect what your referring to a bit.

"The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc."

It says combat speeds are equalized to the slower character, and every other speed of the faster character is reduced by the same multiplier. The last part just solidifies it.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Honestly, i don't know what you're talking about. Speed is the least problem in this thread and it won't affect either character in anyway.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Honestly, i don't know what you're talking about. Speed is the least problem in this thread and it won't affect either character in anyway.

Now then, let me dissect what your referring to a bit.

"The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc."

It says combat speeds are equalized to the slower character, and every other speed of the faster character is reduced by the same multiplier. The last part just solidifies it.

Combat speed is 100% equal, everything else depends on how much the combat speed was reduced. If someone is 1000 c and they drop down to 100 c due to speed equal, everything else speed-wisegoes down 10x.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I think you're misinterpreted speed equal in wrong way. By speed equal mean that Ash speed are reduced to Ritsuka speed nothing more.

 

[DaReaperMan]

And that changes their combat speeds being literal statues to the others reactions why?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Ash have higher AP and durability which is his major advantage because he can literally overpowered Ritsuka with his sheer strength alone. I don't know the calc for Ritsuka but a navel gun in middle of 17th century can deal this much of damage, although that won't cover his disadvantage in physical stats. However, that is all Ash have so i'll move to Ritsuka next.

It's undoubtedly that Ritsuka is far more skilled than Ash is, he have been trained by legendary figures and so on. Honestly, why don't he have Martial Arts or something similar in his profile? Also his stamina should be upgrade as well given that he've went through some extreme training under Scathach, Leonidas but its a different matter for now.

Considering the situation this is basically skills vs AP at this point, all Ash can do is trying to punch Ritsuka to death or choke him into submission. Let take a note here, we cannot determined how skilled Ritsuka is as a fighter, mainly because he haven't been an direct combat for most of the time. However we can't disregard the training he've received, Ritsuka would know how to dodge, to analyse situations and when or where to strike at his opponent. It may seem like i'm overestimate him but it's true, in martial arts, military or any kind of combat training they are basic knowledge that everyone must known and learnt. While Ash feat may have his fair share of knowledge in tactical combat and being an athlete himself, Ritsuka being throughly trained would give him the edge in this field.

Ritsuka would spend a few seconds analysing his opponent and after a few punch and kick, Ritsuka then realized that Ash is physically stronger than him so he took few steps then go into defensive position. He know that his normal attack won't work so he'll target his vital points instead, repeatedly poking his eyes will lead to wound being fester and worsen over time.

As for Ritsuka's Social Influencing, everybody already explain it so i won't tap into it much. I do think that it is possible for Ritsuka to convince Ash to surrender and it doesn't take a genius to accomplish it, a person who having a way with words can easily do that. We've seen Ritsuka dealing with psychopath and maniac on daily basic so Ash shouldn't be much difficult.

Thanks for the good analysis, it really help to summarize the win cons of both sides and that indeed is a fair match.

Anyway, this ended long ago, many think that is indeed a fair match and it was rejected the removal in the deletion thread, so I'm gonna ask to close this.