Massive Zombies revisions

[Mr. Bambu]

"So why do we scale to Samantha? She seems to be a glass cannon, in that she's a little girl who just happens to have crazy rage shit."
Why would she be a glass canon? She's literally never been harmed and unless you count Maxis fighting Richtofen while in Samantha's body and Maxis was amped by the Aether which would unironically just make her full on 7-B in dura

The main reason why is they fought Brutus who not only has the same source of power as her (the Aether) but is likely even greater and his powers also come from the Shadowman.

"Not reactions but if you can prove he does attack with CTG lightning then fine, sure."
Well I linked earlier that he creates Thunderstorms

"He seems to just teleport though, whenever attacked, and doesn't audibly register pain until the laser nabs him."
Why would we dismiss it because he doesn't wail in pain? I can't think of a single boss who even shows pain after being defeated minus maybe the Margwa's

"If this is a claim you can prove, then sure (as in, they fought these entities directly), though as mentioned above the Apothicons and the Keepers shouldn't scale to Avogadro unless they directly fought him."
Sure I'll link it in a second but you admitted earlier that you agreed with Apothicons being stronger than Avogadro so I don't see what the issue is?

Shared power source alone ain't enough. Sorry if you're not familiar, but for an example I'll reference D&D, my verse. A level 1 wizard manipulates the Weave exactly as a level 20th Wizard does- for obvious reasons they ain't comparable. If she's never been harmed then how the hell are we scaling to her lol? What makes Brutus stronger? Thinking on it, this isn't a huge deal given dealing significant damage to Nuketown is probably like 9-A to 8-C at best but still.

Fair, "Up to MHS attack speed" is fine then.

Because... he teleports... when they try to hit him? I may have worded that poorly, but yeah I just think they're moving him by making him teleport.

I did not do that, though. I agreed that the guy said as a species they were the strongest, and made the caveat saying that Avogadro shouldn't be considered- the strength of a species includes many factors outside of raw physical strength. Unless Avogadro got ****** up by a single Apothicon, then scaling doesn't really exist, lad. I specifically said this wasn't a thing.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

"not familiar, but for an example I'll reference D&D, my verse. A level 1 wizard manipulates the Weave exactly as a level 20th Wizard does- for obvious reasons they ain't comparable. If she's never been harmed then how the hell are we scaling to her lol? What makes Brutus stronger? Thinking on it, this isn't a huge deal given dealing significant damage to Nuketown is probably like 9-A to 8-C at best but still."
This isn't the case in zombies, the entire goal in zombies is literally people trying to achieve and omnipotent like power. I edited my comment, Maxis fought her while she was possessed by Richtofen so she has to scale in dura since Maxis couldn't one shot him. Also it's because The Shadowman is basically treated as all powerful God and shit and Brutus' powers come from him so he would have to be superior, especially when it's not even stated Elder Gods are stronger than the Shadowman. Also nuketown feat isn't what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the Avogadro shit

"Fair, "Up to MHS attack speed" is fine then."
Alright

"Because... he teleports... when they try to hit him? I may have worded that poorly, but yeah I just think they're moving him by making him teleport."
But they directly hit him in order to do that

"I did not do that, though. I agreed that the guy said as a species they were the strongest, and made the caveat saying that Avogadro shouldn't be considered- the strength of a species includes many factors outside of raw physical strength. Unless Avogadro got ****** up by a single Apothicon, then scaling doesn't really exist, lad. I specifically said this wasn't a thing."
Why would he be referring to outside of raw strength? Spoiler alert but this is COD, why would they be referring to something like haxs or military power in a mode that has nothing to do with the military. And the arguement the Apothicons are weaker when Dr. Monty literally states they are the most powerful beings is weird considering Dr. Monty is nigh omniscient and knows everything. And not to mention, Avogadros entire goal is to become just as strong as them and ascend to their level by becoming apart of Agartha

Then I hear the voices, but they are not in my dream - they are the ones always present, always lingering in my mind. The voices that have clung to me since I first was introduced to the aether. They had dug a hole deep into my dream and propagated... observers of the nightmare which unfolded within my mind.

They whispered words that soothed my soul. I was safe. I was secure. If I wished to reach Agartha, this was what I must do. This was the path to achieve Ascension.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

I'm gonna go offline btw, I'll keep sending messages tomorrow

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I... a lot of this sounds like nonsense. I'm not familiar enough to argue, but a lot of this seems like non-sequiturs ("He's using a power source of X so he must be superior!").

Do they directly hit him? Are they harming him in doing so? I think there's a marked difference between what they're doing and what the book is doing in terms of harming him, is the thing.

Because a civilization's strength can be measured in countless ways. Destructive power of each individual, sure, but that seems unlikely to me. Reach of power, technological advancement (or other forms of advancement, pick your poison I suppose), and general control seem far more likely when they say "The Apothicons were the most powerful". Like, if I sat here and said "The Mongolians were among the most powerful people to walk the planet", I could very easily (and would, in fact) be referring to their power as a civilization- control over land and resources, etc etc, rather than the physical strength. I don't think that's a terribly unreasonably conclusion to make here. If they never fought Avogadro, they shouldn't scale. Like it doesn't even make sense, plot-wise, if they can be the absolute ass of Apothicans just fine but can't harm Avogadro for whatever reason.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

I couldn't sleep

"I... a lot of this sounds like nonsense. I'm not familiar enough to argue, but a lot of this seems like non-sequiturs ("He's using a power source of X so he must be superior!")."
I mean considering he's amped by a god but his feats blow Samantha's out of the water (like warping a island) I don't think it's unreasonable to assume so

"Do they directly hit him? Are they harming him in doing so? I think there's a marked difference between what they're doing and what the book is doing in terms of harming him, is the thing."
Rewatch the scan, that's all I can really say ig.


"Because a civilization's strength can be measured in countless ways. Destructive power of each individual, sure, but that seems unlikely to me. Reach of power, technological advancement (or other forms of advancement, pick your poison I suppose), and general control seem far more likely when they say "The Apothicons were the most powerful". Like, if I sat here and said "The Mongolians were among the most powerful people to walk the planet", I could very easily (and would, in fact) be referring to their power as a civilization- control over land and resources, etc etc, rather than the physical strength. I don't think that's a terribly unreasonably conclusion to make here. If they never fought Avogadro, they shouldn't scale. Like it doesn't even make sense, plot-wise, if they can be the absolute ass of Apothicans just fine but can't harm Avogadro for whatever reason."

There's so many issues with this

First off, the Apothicons literally have none of what you mentioned. They have no technology and they haven't taken over any realities or land period. The entire thing about the Apothicons is their trapped below reality and can't escape. They don't even have any resources too.

Next, why would the Apothicons even need to fight Avogadro. You went completely silent on the great war parts so you obviously agree with Primis scaling to the Apothicons. And Primis fought Avogadro

Next, them not being able to harm Avogadro is false, they say bullets don't work on him, not that they can't even harm him period. Unless we are saying bullets are suddenly above 9-C, there's no reason to assume that this changes the scaling when they can harm him irregardless (so that point that doesn't even matter since it's just Avogadro being bulletproof) and take hits from him either way. And him saying their weapons would barely be a blimp is referring to Broken arrows weapons btw. He says this right after a nuke drops on him so it's clear he's referring to Broken Arrows attempt to kill him

^Scan that shows they can harm him

^Scan that shows they can take hits from him

Also if you are referring to his "no one more pain" lines, that's because he's about to become one with the Aether and transcend and not that he literally can't feel pain.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think it is unreasonable to scale ED feats to physicals without valid proof of scaling those, though. "Warping an island" is all well and good, but what feats of direct destruction does he have? Even Samantha's feat is questionable in this regard.

I did, I remain not convinced.

Holy shit. You putting words into my mouth is incredible. "Since you're still trying to work through older issues clearly you agree with my newly brought up issues!" Awesome. No. As mentioned, my statement is an example of how the strength of a species does not inherently correlate to the strength of an individual. A species is a greater threat than an individual, even if said individual is, say, 1000x stronger than any singular member of the other species. So the statement of an entire race being the most powerful or what have you isn't sufficient evidence to scale it to a single entity that bodies all of their feats, imo.

Moving onto your other bits- I agree with people scaling to people they can harm. You've yet to show me decent evidence of Primis legitimately scaling to an Apothicon. I don't think this is a particularly major point anymore, given as far as I can tell you have no legitimate basis on scaling Apothicons to 7-B either, but still. If it helps, I don't think Avogadro has 7-B AP at this point, I think he's just crazy durable.

Now for your bits on Avo himself: this is not correct, no. They literally state humanity's strongest weapons hardly even register- guess what pal, Primis' weapons are also in that category, and are lesser than the nuke dropped on Avo. Given the anti-feat mentioned here (that Broken Arrows' best weapons, literal nukes, don't even really register to him) I'm gonna scrutinize the in-game bullet stuff as best as I can. To which I can say the following: the bullets' aren't killing him. Show me a scan of them killing him, then maybe I could see your logic. But literally all of your scans of "BUT LOOK AT THEM SHOOTING THE GUY CLEARLY THEY SCALE", it is literally never the bullets doing the damage or being the end goal. Here they're just goading Avogadro back into some container. If I must be honest, assuming Avo tanked the nuke directly requires me to believe most of in-game combat against him, with all the loopholes needed to fight him, are most likely game mechanics. The anti-feats are too glaring to take note of.

I don't really care that they can take hits from him, I'm familiar with "fighting" him from TranZit (before I stopped, I had several thousand hours on the old CoD games, a not-insignificant portion of which was solely on zombies). I just don't think he has 7-B AP. I think he has an argument for 7-B dura, though thinking on it I do want more context on that- like they nuked him... but we also saw him in the container when that was supposedly happening, so clearly he wasn't at the center of the nuke if it even hit him at all?

 

[KieranH10]

What's happening here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Agony.

Basically I don't really like the interpretations offered by the OP. My goal isn't inherently to offer a conclusive end- my goal is to demonstrate that his conclusions aren't very good, as far as I can tell. It seems to me that scaling everyone blindly to a literal actual nuke when no AP feats exist on that level at all is... well, insane. Similarly, to scale them durability wise to someone who states their weapons are pointless against them is bad in my book.

 

[KieranH10]

My favourite!

I'll take another look at this later and give my opinions on the matter.

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

I'm done not debating here btw but I'll respond tomorrow since I have to go the sleep because of a doctor's appointment

 

[Stalker_Maggot]

Honestly, we could keep going back and forth forever. All that matters here at this point is what others think now but I'm still gonna send a reply since I wrote this either way

"I think it is unreasonable to scale ED feats to physicals without valid proof of scaling those, though. "Warping an island" is all well and good, but what feats of direct destruction does he have? Even Samantha's feat is questionable in this regard."
Well he created a pocket dimension and he's stronger than the main characters (tho they just downscale). Either way, were not scaling Samantha to the Nuketown feat, we are scaling her to the fact she can kill a Apothicon

"I did, I remain not convinced."
I don't know what to tell you then

"Holy shit. You putting words into my mouth is incredible. "Since you're still trying to work through older issues clearly you agree with my newly brought up issues!" Awesome. No. As mentioned, my statement is an example of how the strength of a species does not inherently correlate to the strength of an individual. A species is a greater threat than an individual, even if said individual is, say, 1000x stronger than any singular member of the other species. So the statement of an entire race being the most powerful or what have you isn't sufficient evidence to scale it to a single entity that bodies all of their feats, imo."
Okay first off, how does Avo body all of their feats. He wants to ascend to their power which you completely ignored in the first place and just marked it off as "inconsistent". Also there's Apothicons who warp and eat entire universes which is far above what Avo can do. Then what the hell was your point about technology and shit? You literally mentioned this. I don't know how I put words in your mouth when I was saying that they had none of what you listed. Also no, why the hell would Monty be talking about numbers. I actually want you to prove he's talking about numbers instead of strength when he literally calls them the most powerful beings. You are over-examining a feat and coming with mental gymnastics to ignore a statement that's blatantly stated and try to interpret it as something else. Because tell me this. If they weren't the most technologically advanced, the ones with the most land power, and they weren't even the strongest physically, why the hell would Monty even consider them "powerful". Numbers is nice and all but Monty shit his pants by them appearing alone

"If I'm honest, I'm a bit scared... Seriously. Brown trousers time. I mean, I know it's the same old story: Forces of Good and Evil battling it out, yea yea, but no one ever tells you how much hard work it ******* is! You know, I'm not ALL powerful. It's always been a struggle to stay on top of it, now more than ever! If it had been entirely up to me, it would've been a lot more straightforward I tell you. Do what you can, eh?"

"Moving onto your other bits- I agree with people scaling to people they can harm. You've yet to show me decent evidence of Primis legitimately scaling to an Apothicon. I don't think this is a particularly major point anymore, given as far as I can tell you have no legitimate basis on scaling Apothicons to 7-B either, but still. If it helps, I don't think Avogadro has 7-B AP at this point, I think he's just crazy durable."
I guess you didn't look at the Tag scans which state they fought a Margwa and the fact I linked a scan that shows that they were literally in a wat against Apothicons but if you really want to say this, here's all the Apothicons enemies in BO3 being killed by Primis






"Now for your bits on Avo himself: this is not correct, no. They literally state humanity's strongest weapons hardly even register- guess what pal, Primis' weapons are also in that categor yand are lesser than the nuke dropped on Avo."
When does he state that? I've watched the boss battle many times and he never did that. He just said "even your most powerful weapons would be (or pass I can't remember) a blimp on my radar"

Also no that's 100% false, Primis' weapons are demonic Announcers, not humans. Also you want you to explain what you mean by "their weapons are weaker" because the weapons do scale to Avogadro that I'll explain later

"Given the anti-feat mentioned here (that Broken Arrows' best weapons, literal nukes, don't even really register to him) I'm gonna scrutinize the in-game bullet stuff as best as I can. To which I can say the following: the bullets' aren't killing him. Show me a scan of them killing him, then maybe I could see your logic."
K you are just ignoring something you admitted earlier. They're not trying to kill him. The entire point of the boss fight to send him to Tranzit

Also they aren't even using bullets to harm, they are using Ray Guns

"But literally all of your scans of "BUT LOOK AT THEM SHOOTING THE GUY CLEARLY THEY SCALE", it is literally never the bullets doing the damage or being the end goal. Here they're just goading Avogadro back into some container."
You literally see the attack visually stuns him and sends him back. Tell me this. Why would he be getting stunned by the shot if it didn't harm him. The Ray Guns don't even have abilities like paralysis or status effect inducement so that's not an argument, when one of them literally just shoots explosions.

"If I must be honest, assuming Avo tanked the nuke directly requires me to believe most of in-game combat against him, with all the loopholes needed to fight him, are most likely game mechanics. The anti-feats are too glaring to take note of."

What anti feats? Bullets can't harm him so idk what you mean by Anti Feats. Also why would this be game mechanics when the entire event of his boss fight is canon and the way you defeat him (I.e shooting him into a trap) is canon as well.

"I don't really care that they can take hits from him, I'm familiar with "fighting" him from TranZit (before I stopped, I had several thousand hours on the old CoD games, a not-insignificant portion of which was solely on zombies). I just don't think he has 7-B AP. I think he has an argument for 7-B dura, though thinking on it I do want more context on that- like they nuked him... but we also saw him in the container when that was supposedly happening, so clearly he wasn't at the center of the nuke if it even hit him at all?"
They directly rigged a nuke next to his container so it did have to hit him, especially when Avogadro visually shakes after being hit

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alrighty. I'll reply then, too, I guess.

You're still describing ED feats though. If we find feats for an Apothicon and establish that they scale, fair's fair I guess.

Aight.

Could you actually show me your evidence for the whole "Avogadro wants to ascend to their power" thing? I feel as though context can mean a great deal here. Also, so you're saying the entire cast is Low 2-C now, eh? Where's that argument been the whole time lol? As for "what was your point about technology"... what, did you not read it? My point was the Apothicon's power isn't comparable to that of an individual. I've restated this several times by this point. The power of a species is not inherently the physicality of a single member. You put words in my mouth in the sense that you said I accepted something when I had not actually done so. I don't know what the "numbers" babel here is so I'll let you imagine whatever you like for that. I'm examining a feat that you have provided because I am expected to do so- no such thing as over examination, laddie, especially when its for a verse I'm not fully familiar with. You're acting as though I am being unfair- I do not think I am, you're simply providing evidence that is questionable. Deary deary me.

Alright, evidence! The first one appears to be "wait for weak point then damage"- not the greatest but something, I suppose. Iffy, but we've used iffier things in the past. Ditto for Margwa, though based on the visual differences and differences in their threat to the player I must ask- are all apothicons equal in AP? I feel as though the first scan and second scan (video? you know what I'm referring to) are significantly different.

Your next point is semantics, you openly admit to the spirit of my point, just not the letter. Moving on.

Exactly my point! They're not killing him. So why the hell are we trying to make them scale to something they can't kill? Also the fact that they're using ray guns is besides the point if the same happens with real weapons.

Game mechanics, probably. You can't really argue lore here given he outright states that said weapons are hardly a blip. I presume the devs needed a method to actually beat that which is unbeatable. So the bullets push him back, problem solved.

you continuing to vaguely dig your own grave here is greatly amusing

I mean this isn't really an argument for 7-B AP though lol. Hell, even a7-B nuke going off a meter away from someone lessens the dura needed to tank it to 7-C. Outta curiosity, actually, do we know what kind of nuke it is?

 

[Jockey-1337]

Where do you scale Apothicons?