Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions

[MattadorProne]

That's... way to vague and poetic sounding to be taken seriously. We can't know if he was being literal or just metaphoric. Even if he is being completely serious, it's too poetic and flowery to be considered hard evidence.
But I've never played P1 and P2 so I wouldn't know the context.

It's not that metaphoric, Philemon also stated that their inner strength possessed the same power that created the universe
and there is context behind this

Spoiler alert: when Maya died, the cast asked themselves if they could do anything to reverse that, and Philemon said that could create a new timeline if they forget about eachother, it was also in this scene that he said those things about the soul and will power, so it really was just an explanation, not flowery language

To be fair every P5 confident at rank 10 primises you infinte power and when Makoto is given the universe aracana Igor states that nothing is out of the relm of possibility. KnightOfSunlight is justified in their skepticism. We need more P2 knowledgables to discuss.

 

[Sera_EX]

I know P2 like the back of my hand, but again I'm limited in discussing. It's a very intricate verse. A lot of detail is still unfortunately being left out.

 

[Solacis]

Now that I have finally had some sleep, I have enough energy to tackle this pressing issue.

Nyx causing the creation of the Collective Unconscious is not a creation feat.

The P3 Club Book explains that the fragments of her psyche that were left behind on Earth when she became the Moon made it so that the ancient humans rapidly evolved their own psyche to form the Collective Unsconsious. The creation feat at best applies to the ancient humans. The only thing that Nyx did was start the chain reaction with her presence, what happened after she left her fragments were entirely out of her control. Hypothetically speaking, if I drop a lit cigarette on the roadside near a forest during the dry season without really thinking about it, and a forest fire starts that destroys a city's worth of trees, would I be 7-B via environmental destruction? Of course not. The same principle applies here.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yeah, Nyx didn't cause it's creation outright. It's cause and effect. Humans developed it because of Nyx. That's enough to suggest a scaling link between the two, but it's not a creation feat.

 

[Solacis]

Also, I just realized it, but whoever were updating the profiles yesterday completely forgot to remove Durability Negation from some of the profiles. Will fix it now.

Edit: Durability Negation will actually still apply for those with access to Life/Spirit Drain and similar skills. I'll still have to edit the explanations for Almighty mechanics in the P&A though.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

>"It's not that metaphoric, Philemon also stated that their inner strength possessed the same power that created the universe

and there is context behind this

Spoiler alert: when Maya died, the cast asked themselves if they could do anything to reverse that, and Philemon said that could create a new timeline if they forget about eachother, it was also in this scene that he said those things about the soul and will power, so it really was just an explanation, not flowery language"

This is true; they literally create a new universe/timeline right after Philemon says this. So I doubt he is being poetic. And when he said all souls have the potential to create a new reality, this is also true; we literally see Tatsuya do it in the end of IS.

But, you'd need to have your potential unlocked. Not anyone can just make a new timeline; you'd need your soul to be awakened to use Personas, like how Philemon literally gave the P1 gang the Persona power.

And there's also a potential Low Multiverse/Uni+ feat for P1, so this makes it even more consistent. I'd show it but idk how can I get the P1 manga scans...

And I believe P1 AND P2 should scale to Margaret/Velvet Room attendants via literally beating Nyar and Philemon. Philemon created the Velvet Room and is Igor's Master. Nyar and Philemon are literally two halves of the totality of the Collective Unconsciousness. P1 cast appeared in P2 and even fought alongside the P2 characters.

Basically, P1-P5 should be all Low 2-C, tbh. Not just P2 to P5. (P1 needs them buffs!)

 

[DarkGrath]

Hey everyone! I'm back from the dead!

So, yeah. I've misremembered the creation of the Collective Unconscious previously and claimed it was a creation feat for Nyx, though I'm long aware that I was incorrect. It was just a chain reaction, as Solacis said.

Oh yeah, and I was one of the people who edited the profiles yesterday. My bad on the durability negation, I was a bit confused since I couldn't remember whether it was accepted that it should be removed or not.

Also, I'm very glad to see that Sera's back! We've all missed you!

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Also wow how come I didn't notice at first? Sera welcome back! I know you're busy, so don't feel obligated to totally invest yourself here.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Low 2-C Doggo is the best thing in this site lol.

 

[DarkGrath]

i've been considering making a match between Koromaru and Morgana to make it a surprisingly overpowered dog versus a surprisingly overpowered cat

 

[Sera_EX]

Most overpowered cat is either Bernkastel or Reinhard.

 

[DarkGrath]

On another note, would I be allowed to add my Nyx profile to the Persona verse page, and replace the Nyx Avatar's name with... well, Nyx Avatar?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

But... Beerus...

 

[Solacis]

@DarkGrath

Definitely.

 

[DarkGrath]

@DarkGrath
Definitely.

Gotcha. It was an honor to be the one to make that page. I'll make sure I'm careful with the editing. XD

 

[DarkGrath]

Added.

 

[Solacis]

I'm currently handling Junpei's profile.

 

[Solacis]

People seem to be forgetting this:

" All Persona-users, Shadows, Gods, Demons and Cognitions should also have a base resistance to every non-special status ailment in their respective games (or even all of them collectively), as the chance-based affliction is representative of the target's resistance v.s. the potency of the ailment being cast. This also applies to resisting Death Manipulation. "

These ailments include Mind, Empathic, Soul, Biological and Fear Manipulation as well as Paralysis Inducement.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Jesus these profiles were massively out of date.

As for the Nyx thing, the cigarette is an inaccurate metaphor. It would be more akin to your severed toe being responsible for destroying a forest. In which case, your toe should be infinitely below your actual power, yeah?

 

[DarkGrath]

I included the resistances in each of the profiles I edited yesterday, at least, I think I got all of them.

 

[Ranzuki]

>"It's not that metaphoric, Philemon also stated that their inner strength possessed the same power that created the universe

and there is context behind this

Spoiler alert: when Maya died, the cast asked themselves if they could do anything to reverse that, and Philemon said that could create a new timeline if they forget about eachother, it was also in this scene that he said those things about the soul and will power, so it really was just an explanation, not flowery language"

This is true; they literally create a new universe/timeline right after Philemon says this. So I doubt he is being poetic. And when he said all souls have the potential to create a new reality, this is also true; we literally see Tatsuya do it in the end of IS.

But, you'd need to have your potential unlocked. Not anyone can just make a new timeline; you'd need your soul to be awakened to use Personas, like how Philemon literally gave the P1 gang the Persona power.

And there's also a potential Low Multiverse/Uni+ feat for P1, so this makes it even more consistent. I'd show it but idk how can I get the P1 manga scans...

And I believe P1 AND P2 should scale to Margaret/Velvet Room attendants via literally beating Nyar and Philemon. Philemon created the Velvet Room and is Igor's Master. Nyar and Philemon are literally two halves of the totality of the Collective Unconsciousness. P1 cast appeared in P2 and even fought alongside the P2 characters.

Basically, P1-P5 should be all Low 2-C, tbh. Not just P2 to P5. (P1 needs them buffs!)

Wasn't it stated in EP that Maki Sonomura was the strongest Persona user and Tatsuya needed that potential?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

>Wasn't it stated in EP that Maki Sonomura was the strongest Persona user and Tatsuya needed that potential?

I'll need context on this. All I remember from the P1 Manga is that she made an ideal universe very similar to the real one. When was this said?

 

[Ranzuki]

Jesus these profiles were massively out of date.
As for the Nyx thing, the cigarette is an inaccurate metaphor. It would be more akin to your severed toe being responsible for destroying a forest. In which case, your toe should be infinitely below your actual power, yeah?

That's a pretty bad analogy, the guy you quoted already said that Nyx indirectly caused the creation of Collective Unconscious because it was humans who created it out of fear. Nyx did not create the Collective Unconscious. In which case the severed toe has to create some sort of chain reaction to create something more powerful yet it's actual power is completely irrelevant. So the cigarette analogy is more accurate.

 

[DarkGrath]

I have a quick question that might be important.

Does Makoto Yuki have any early-game feats?

When I edited his profile for the Low 2-C revisions, I changed the key for "Fool Arcana" (which would normally just refer to both early and late game) to "Late Game". This is because his Low 2-C key is based off of fighting Elizabeth canonically. However, this almost certainly didn't happen until late in game, and he clearly goes through advancements in strength throughout the journey.

So, are there any possible early-game feats we could use for his profile in a separate "Early Game" key?

 

[Ranzuki]

>Wasn't it stated in EP that Maki Sonomura was the strongest Persona user and Tatsuya needed that potential?
I'll need context on this. All I remember from the P1 Manga is that she made an ideal universe very similar to the real one. When was this said?

It was Igor who said that. You can read this thread for more info and the actual quote.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/641809-persona-5/68589559

Also fun fact: Persona 2 PSP came out after Persona 3 Portable. The Maki quote came out in the new EP scenario.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Wait so Nyx creating the CU ISN'T a creation feat, because she merely indirectly caused the CU's creation.

Man I'm confused now as to who's the top dog. Is it Philemon and Nyar, who are literally the CU itself? Yaldy, who merged with the CU? Or Nyx, who indirectly created the CU?

Then there's Izanami, who I think created the TV World, Pandora/Maki, who created the Ideal Universe and was gonna destroy the Real World as well, Chronos who's a literal time god and the villain of PQ1... Man, we really need to sort these out.

But if Nyx is the creator... Then shouldn't be something like: "Arceus = Nyx, The Creation Trio = Phile, Nyar, and Yaldy" or smth?

 

[DarkGrath]

Oh, by the way everyone, the Sho Minazuki page still hasn't been edited in accordance with the new tiering. Unless anyone else wants to do it, I'll handle the profile editing now.

EDIT: Just also noticed that there are some formatting errors on the page. I'll fix those up now.

 

[DarkGrath]

All done. Just to clarify, the tier upgrade should remove all losses listed in the profile, right? Sho currently has a loss listed on his profile against a tier 7-A character, so should that now be automatically removed?

 

[Ranzuki]

Wait so Nyx creating the CU ISN'T a creation feat, because she merely indirectly caused the CU's creation.
Man I'm confused now as to who's the top dog. Is it Philemon and Nyar, who are literally the CU itself? Yaldy, who merged with the CU? Or Nyx, who indirectly created the CU?

Then there's Izanami, who I think created the TV World, Pandora/Maki, who created the Ideal Universe and was gonna destroy the Real World as well, Chronos who's a literal time god and the villain of PQ1... Man, we really need to sort these out.

But if Nyx is the creator... Then shouldn't be something like: "Arceus = Nyx, The Creation Trio = Phile, Nyar, and Yaldy" or smth?

The thing with Philemon and Nyarlatohtep is that even if humanity is destroyed, they will still continue to exists. Nyarlathotep tried to kill all humans and destroyed the entire Universe and he still would be fine as he also tried to kill the remaining humans like Tatsuya and his party. I severely doubt these two entities would stop existing even if humanity disappeared like what happened in Persona 2.

Also can anyone find the interview of Hashino between Persona 3 and The Answer stating that Nyx was a fracture of Nyarlathotep? I saw someone on 4chan said that but I have to see the actual interview to make sure.

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/375349816/#q375363978

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I never said that Philemon and Nyar would die if humanity died tho?

Or are you trying to say that those two are above Nyx? If so, what's reason? Cuz if what the discussion says is true, humanity itself created the CU, and therefore Nyar and Philemon too.

Oh yeah, Philemon still exists even in the P3-5 games. He's only watching, since he can't directly interfere, but he takes the form of the blue butterfly iirc.

I also remember Nyar say that all souls of humanity eventually return to him or smth.

 

[Ranzuki]

I never said that Philemon and Nyar would die if humanity died tho?
Or are you trying to say that those two are above Nyx? If so, what's reason? Cuz if what the discussion says is true, humanity itself created the CU, and therefore Nyar and Philemon too.

Oh yeah, Philemon still exists even in the P3-5 games. He's only watching, since he can't directly interfere, but he takes the form of the blue butterfly iirc.

I also remember Nyar say that all souls of humanity eventually return to him or smth.

That was not directed at you but it's a common argument that people brings up against them so I just threw that one out randomly.

As for who is stronger Philemon, Nyarlathotep, and even Yaldabaoth all have better feats and Nyx is still unquantifiable on how strong it is. I'm just saying that the indirect creation of CU because of humanity's fear over Nys is a bad argument to place them above Philemon, Nyarlathotep, and Yaldabaoth.

 

[Solacis]

Yaldabaoth wouldn't disappear if humanity was destroyed either. He was born from the Sea of Souls, not the Collective Unconscious. The two are linked in that the latter affects the former, but it's made very clear that Yaldabaoth would have been entirely unaffected by the destruction of the universe. Naturally, this extends to those with the same origins as him, such as Erebus, Izanami, Chronos and Enlil.

Also like Phil and Nyarly, Yaldabaoth was an administrator of the Collective Unconscious. To quote Sera...

I'm going to make the proper thread for it eventually, but the Administrators of the Collective Unconscious scale to Philemon and Nyar or more appropriately, the Sea of Souls itself. This is new info coming from PQ2, which I beat twice by now during my "vacation". Nagi/Enlil is an Adminstrator/God of the Collective Unconscious, the exact same role Yaldabaoth played in P5 and she even showcased similar abilities as Yaldy regarding palaces, the merging of realities and so forth. God/Administrator is what Philey and Nya are, and based off her abilities with the TV world, I'm convinced Izanami was likely one as well. We just didn't get a title for these beings until P5, each are seemingly relative in power but are born for different reasons. The existence of Enlil is evidence that these "administrators" exist like her and Yaldy which is practically a refurbished version of the role Philey and Nya.

We know that True Nyx is the top-dog not because she caused the creation of the CU, or that she's the mother of all Shadows, but because she's vastly superior to Erebus, who should scale to the rest of the Administrators.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Well for the record, here's the Megaten wikia page for the Sea of Souls, if it helps.

And if Nyx is the top dog then Minato is technically the top dog protag... Or not, since he died while sealing her.

 

[Ranzuki]

Yaldabaoth wouldn't disappear if humanity was destroyed either. He was born from the Sea of Souls, not the Collective Unconscious. The two are linked in that the latter affects the former, but it's made very clear that Yaldabaoth would have been entirely unaffected by the destruction of the universe. Naturally, this extends to those with the same origins as him, such as Erebus, Izanami, Chronos and Enlil.

Also like Phil and Nyarly, Yaldabaoth was an administrator of the Collective Unconscious. To quote Sera...

We know that True Nyx is the top-dog not because she caused the creation of the CU, or that she's the mother of all Shadows, but because she's vastly superior to Erebus, who should scale to the rest of the Administrators.

Erebus who got destroyed by Elizabeth? Sorry, but that sounds like a bad example of powerscaling to me.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Oh, Philemon also appeared in PQ2 supposedly. So that's something.

And Enlil controls a part of the Collective Unconsciousness, according to this page here.

Also neat title there, Administrators... Reminds me of Devil Survivor.

 

[Ranzuki]

Oh, Philemon also appeared in PQ2 supposedly. So that's something.

And Enlil controls a part of the Collective Unconsciousness, according to this page here.

Also neat title there, Administrators... Reminds me of Devil Survivor.

Philemon and Nyarlatothep ARE the Collective Unconscious. Nothing I've seen so far states they are Administrators. Also the bad powerscaling part comes from scaling Erebus to Yaldabaoth and Enlil who by far has superior feats to Erebus. Erebus got destroyed by Elizabeth who is below Igor who is below Philemon, Nyarlatothep, or Yaldabaoth. These are blatant association fallacy if I'm going to be honest. Also it's not directed at you but the person who i originally quoted. I'm going to need evidence why these "Administrators" are equal in power especially since he is directly comparing Erebus to Yaldabaoth to justify Nyx being stronger than them.

 

[MattadorProne]

Well for the record, here's the Megaten wikia page for the Sea of Souls, if it helps.
And if Nyx is the top dog then Minato is technically the top dog protag... Or not, since he died while sealing her.

Idk people seem to think P3 protag sealed Nyx. He sealed Erebus' path to nyx, preventing the Fall. Nyx isn't evil or anything.

 

[DarkGrath]

All done. Just to clarify, the tier upgrade should remove all losses listed in the profile, right? Sho currently has a loss listed on his profile against a tier 7-A character, so should that now be automatically removed?

^^^^^^^

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Oh yeah uh Nyar recently lost to Sonic, and his profile is also really outdated Shouldn't that be removed?

 

[MattadorProne]

Out of curiosity why is Nyx notes as being stronger than Yaldabaoth in its profile? I don't believe that's really supported since they never interact.

I agree. If someone wishes to later make a Yald. vs. Nyx thread than go ahead but speculation should not be included in the summary section. We would need a difinative statement, like Igor saying directly "Nyx is stronger than Yald" for it to be included as such. Adding this is simply stifiling discussion, discussion being the entire point of the wiki. I call shenanigans, elevating Nyx without feats.

It has been mentioned numerious times in the thread that the creation of the CU is a feat of humanity not Nyx. Humanity created Yald. Even if Nyx had directly created Yald, creating something does not make it inferior or weaker to you, espicially when there is no difinative evidence backing this.

This is no better than arguments for Saitama winning any fight on the wiki without giving any feats or evidence, since he's One Punch Man and has always won.